SYNC_ Map Feedback

[Jupe]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

@smb
I did few map generations now too, and it seems it's more common to have weirdly openish maps in 3v3 rather than 4v4; though i had a 4v4 map where there was 5 openings with total of 50+ open tiles.
Conclusion: It's doesn't have the feeling of BF as it was, imo np in keeping the map in the pool, just rename it to something more suitable
E: Just wondering whats the point of changing maps that have been played like how they have been from the very begining :?

 

[teutonic_tanks]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

Yeah BF ist still very diffrent from the usual version. The main reason is not only the bigger crossings, but also the lack of extra boars and lakes. Standart BF got a very uneven distribution of those, players can have spots with like 15 boars or large boarfree areas. Same goes for the lakes, if you're lucky and got a lake, it doesnt mean that there is fish in it.

So what changes would be possible, to make the map again more like the original one? Well one idea would be to split that one percent of water on BF up in let's say more clumps (from 4 to 9) and distribute the fish inside fairer (like every 4-6 tiles along the coast spawns a shorefish). The likelyness of a even distribtuion gonna increase a lot with more clumps and the lakes gonna be a bit smaller (Diameter circa 7-8 tiles), but this again is balanceble with the shorefish, in order to have 4-6 shorefishes in each lake. This would pretty much look like this:

<TERRAIN_GENERATION>

create_terrain WATER
{
base_terrain  GRASS
endif
  spacing_to_other_terrain_types 2
  land_percent                   1
  number_of_clumps               9
  set_avoid_player_start_areas
  set_flat_terrain_only     
}



<OBJECTS_GENERATION>

create_object SHORE_FISH
{
number_of_objects 100
set_scaling_to_map_size
min_distance_group_placement 3
}

Same goes for the boars. Packs of 3 boars will be spread over the map with a high distance between eachother, at the same time another command makes sure, that they always spawn between 30 and 35 tiles away of a player, which means they're always lureable with vills or worth to mill them. In like 80-90% of the cases a player will have 1 of these extra boar packs and in the rest of the cases he gonna have 2. This would look like this:

<OBJECTS_GENERATION>

create_object BOAR
{
number_of_objects 3
number_of_groups 8
set_loose_grouping  
set_gaia_object_only
set_scaling_to_map_size
min_distance_to_players 30
max_distance_to_players 35
min_distance_group_placement 55
}

In case someone wants to test the map i added it. Hope it's not too late to consider these changes, to make BeeFee BeeFee again ops:

 

[SMB360]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

Same goes for the boars. Packs of 3 boars will be spread over the map with a high distance between eachother, at the same time another command makes sure, that they always spawn between 30 and 35 tiles away of a player, which means they're always lureable with vills or worth to mill them. In like 80-90% of the cases a player will have 1 of these extra boar packs and in the rest of the cases he gonna have 2. This would look like this:

I tested this, as we discussed There were some issues like the 3 boars appearing in the chokepoint (for flanks) or the 3 boars appearing on the other side of a forest. Although it was a good idea, in the end I think it added too much of a bs element to it without there being much gained.

 

[teutonic_tanks]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

First the forrests are so open that luring is still possible. I was worried too about boars spawning behind forrests and thats why i put the limit with min_distance_to_players 30 max_distance_to_players 35. I tested it out and in every position the boars are lurable. You have to Keep in mind that the forrests can also help you to lure the boar, since the boar is always getting a Little bit stuck when he runs next to trees, making him slower and easier to lure.
The Thing you're right about is that as flank you can be fighting for extra boars, but i cant see how this can be a bs element. It's the same as being on arabia and having a fwd main gold, you have to adapt your strategy maybe put a tower and deal with it or call a restart. On BF this means you go wall early if you want them, use your scout to tak one early or you ignore them and go for luring your deers. At the end those ressources are sill extra ressources, it's possible to play without them, they're just a boot for your economy.
Lakes and boars are balancing them out, if you dont have Access to extra boars, because you were too lazy to wall early, then you could still make dock with 5-6 Fishers to boost your economy.

The Point of These back changes is just to make BF BF and not Green Arabia, like the current version is atm.

 

[SMB360]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

The conti map, as it is right now, is almost a map win in 100% of the cases, some players have unwallable map or too much time/res demanding and will either get defeated in land or in water due to time loss walling to avoid any early attack in land. while other has 2 tiles wall with few pali, also i already played twice with forests 14 tiles away from tc while my direct opponent had it around 8 tiles away, this is too much of an advantage and it occurs way too often(spected similar cases). Should review or eliminate this map, it´s extremely frustrating, there are fairer versions with shwallows(?) that have been played in the past with similar gameplay.

The primary forest on this continental map is actually distributed into more clumps (11 vs 10, but this number scales with map size, so in TG there will be several more clumps) compared to SY_Continental_v2. The way the player land and middle land is formed is almost completely the same as SY_Continental_v2 as well, with no value being changed by more than 2% or 1 tile. Basically, it's the same map as before but with fair fish and the primary forest better distributed, so I believe the problems you are describing are actually problems that Continental has always had. Nili said to us 'Continental is not a competitive map at a high level', but we felt like it had its place in the map pool. Nonetheless, it's never a set map, only a home map choice from one of many. We'll monitor it though and pull any maps that are causing problems. The alternative could be to add a map like Disc (from CoT) and remove Continental, which has no inlets of water and no peninsulas, which would help with making the walling aspect fair. I'll discuss this with Limb later.

I'd also add that you can see different distances to wood on every map because 'that's AoC'; I remember in Masters of Arabia 2v2 it was frequent for one player to have their nearest wood 2 screens away on a 4-player standard Arabia map. The same thing could arguably be said about one player having an easy-wall map and one not. I've tried to reduce instances of stuff like this across all maps but probably to better effect on some than others ops:

*LN I believe older distribution of res was much better than how it is now, i´ve seen the 4 boars splitted very randomly to triangulation of vills(havent really saw it played much but atleast the couple of games i saw/play), should check that also.

SY Land Nomad has 1 close boar (14-18 tiles) and a pack of 3 boars which could be super close or super far (13-30 tiles). Imagine one player has 3 boars at 13 tiles away and another player had 3 boars at 30 tiles away. That's really unfair and opens the latter player up to laming - many times have I seen a player's 3-boar pack getting lamed by a vil palisading them in and shooting them all in tournaments. This new version of Land Nomad has 2 close boars (14-18 tiles) and 2 medium boars (21-25 tiles). So even in the worst case you only have 2 boars that are a medium to far-ish distance away instead of 3 being super far. Overall this provides better access to boars, you just have to scout more thoroughly, but that's what all the sheep scouting in the first few minutes is for. Maybe you won't always find all 4, but consistently taking 3 or 4 boars versus being open to only having 1 boar to take because of laming or whatever is far better in my view, as well as the fact that there are no situations now where one player's 3 boars are 2.5x as far away as another's.

 

[squeak]

perv limb pls fix

3 of 4 crossings are from enemy's land. It doesnt matter on slakan's level, but weaker teams might have a disadvantage cause of it.

[modwarn2=pumukel]Topics merged.[/modwarn2]

 

[squeak]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

literally unplayable

 

[pumukel]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

literally NC17v2 prefix and not SYNC, but not sure if that makes a difference

 

[Slaktarn]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

I dont even need a crossing just give me a transprot with 5 spots and i take the mid island no matter what

 

[teutonic_tanks]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

Is it a bug that there are no more shorefishes on yucatan?

 

[prv_limb]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

SYNC_Yucatan
Water and forest adjusted to make it a more open and fair map. Fish has been removed.

 

[teutonic_tanks]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

ah ok well then you updated it from v1 good to know.

 

[223423]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

Is it intentional that some of the extra gold and stone on Grossrox cant be reached with a lumbercamp due to them beeing trapped between water und wood?

 

[teutonic_tanks]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

I have notied several minor bugs:
-the fish on Cross is spawning like 1 tile away from the coast, so you can make only few docks. With lets say 7-8 galleys a player can block these tiny dockable spots making a redock impossible without placing a castle and even then you only can make 3-4 docks because the fish still blocks you.
-on acropolis in 4v4 and sometimes also in 3v3s one or two players spawn on a own hill making it impossible to teamwall.
-the sheep on ghostlake spawn over thee whole map and not only on the ice. Dunno if thats intended, since eg the relics are only spawning on the ice. Often players wont search in the corners for sheep and they will end up having them in the tradeline where they change color everytime a cart passes. That s pretty annoying 11

Oh and please edit the first post, so ppl cant download older versions the maps.

 

[SMB360]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

On TA it's the same thing as when we discussed weird land spawning for Seize the Hump and concluded there probably wasn't much to be done. I know it didn't happen previously (or at least I don't think?) but I'd guess it was probably introduced as a side effect of changing the lands to avoid the easy back walls.

Ghost Lake sheep was something I discovered myself a few days ago. They're missing the line to only place on ice, which was unintentional. I flagged it to Limb but we weren't concerned. Maybe we can update the map description though.

 

[Spaden]

Extra sheep has always been able to spawn all over the map on ghost lake. It's just that it's easier to find them in the middle since the minimum distance to closest tc is high there and it's just big open space with no obstacles, which makes the middle ice rich in sheep.

It's usually easier to find extra sheep along the edges in 1v1 Ghostlake because the ice in the middle is often too close to the tcs to generate extra sheep.

 

[nimanoe]

Re: NC17 MAP PACK VERSION 2 - Map Feedback

On TA it's the same thing as when we discussed weird land spawning for Seize the Hump and concluded there probably wasn't much to be done. I know it didn't happen previously (or at least I don't think?) but I'd guess it was probably introduced as a side effect of changing the lands to avoid the easy back walls.

If this happens will it count as a bugged map and thus an admin restart?

 

[Nili_AoE]

check my outside woodline early castle. vils are getting idle for no reason. bedouins wood bug or aoc bug?

 

[teutonic_tanks]

never seen something like this before, nevertheless it shouldn't be map dependant. Maybe scripter64 is around and could explain us this bug.

 

[Clemensor]

That always happens to me when the space around th lumberjacks is too crowded, although this example here is quite extreme since its barely crowded at all and nearly all go idle at one point. :|

 

[scripter64]

Hi! I looked at it briefly and it seemed like each villager didn't even try to look for a new target tree after the one they were working on was done. It might be a map terrain zone issue. Will look into it further soon. Thanks for the rec!

Anyone have the exact rms file that was used in this game?

 

[robo]

http://aoczone.net/viewtopic.php?f=1536&t=130812

 

[scripter64]

Thanks, robo!

 

[scripter64]

K, found the problem with the idling lumberjacks. The rms script and the map itself are both fine. The issue was with the v1.0c pathing system, where creating a walled and/or sealed map region under certain conditions disables the ability of the game to check whether objects in that specific region are reachable. Since it improperly believed that none of the trees could be reached within the sealed region, the villagers would idle after each internal search for a new target tree. The idling issue continued until the area was unsealed later on.

This issue has now been fixed for UP v1.5. Thank you for the report, Nilpferd!

 

[pumukel]

oh holy scripter