Stating the truth isn't uncivilised or hitting below the beltPlease try to keep the discussion civilized though. I promised I would and have stuck to it so far. No hitting below the belt.
Stating the truth isn't uncivilised or hitting below the beltPlease try to keep the discussion civilized though. I promised I would and have stuck to it so far. No hitting below the belt.
Read the edit please.Stating the truth isn't uncivilised or hitting below the beltPlease try to keep the discussion civilized though. I promised I would and have stuck to it so far. No hitting below the belt.
We have cornered the market on visible transgressions, I'll give you that. But this pales in comparison to the atrocities the white European man has done to the world over the centuries, and continues to do in the most devious and invisible of ways. Your economies are built on the blood and resources of ignorant coloured people. The riches you enjoy today are the result of thefts that took place a long time ago that have set these other countries back for centuries, and will continue to do so for many more to come.
Saudi Arabia is a destination for men and women from South and East Asia and East Africa trafficked for the purpose of labor exploitation, and for children from Yemen, Afghanistan, and Africa trafficking for forced begging. Hundreds of thousands of low-skilled workers from India, Indonesia, the Philippines, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Kenya migrate voluntarily to Saudi Arabia; some fall into conditions of involuntary servitude, suffering from physical and sexual abuse, non-payment or delayed payment of wages, the withholding of travel documents, restrictions on their freedom of movement and non-consensual contract alterations. The Government of Saudi Arabia does not comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking and is not making significant efforts to do so
I don't know - why is it so important? Gravity is a law - it is objective. Doesn't matter if it was stalin or hitler both would fall to the ground from a height. Morality might be an entirely human notion after all.If there is no objective moral law then who is to say that stalin and hitler did evil things?
A law has to be created, thus its an effect. Laws don't just pop up out of nowhere, they have to be issued.
Also would you say that logic is also created by consciousness?
How can all ideologies be positive if different ideologies disagree with each other in certain places.[deleted] to one point of Novice; the part you said that people arent evil but idiologies are
And i must oppose to that :-D
In their pure nature all idiologies/philosophies/religions, are not evil, the people that try to fullfill them/ use them are, as for Communism and Islam and Buddhism, all those ideas are positive, and the world would be a great place to live in, if they would be presented as they were invented, with one nation: human,
but the imperfection of people who tried to implement them, made them worse by far then how the world was...
As for Communism, if you will read books of Karl Marx, the idea itself its great and without evil, jealous, greedy, **** leaders would actually work
The point is if the ideology, hence the name, has some quality and would good for the human race
So your: "people=good, ideology=bad" is very wrong in my opinion..
We have cornered the market on visible transgressions, I'll give you that. But this pales in comparison to the atrocities the white European man has done to the world over the centuries, and continues to do in the most devious and invisible of ways. Your economies are built on the blood and resources of ignorant coloured people. The riches you enjoy today are the result of thefts that took place a long time ago that have set these other countries back for centuries, and will continue to do so for many more to come.
Given Islam's history of brutal imperialism and slavery, it seems strange you would make this a point. But as usual Islam's history is ignored and instead, Christianity is attacked because it actually reflects on its history, criticises itself and apologises. Even though it was Great Britain that ended the slave trade (1815) and then pressured Saudi & Yemen to "end" it (1962). Of course, by 'end' I mean they only criminalised it:
US State Department, 2005
Saudi Arabia is a destination for men and women from South and East Asia and East Africa trafficked for the purpose of labor exploitation, and for children from Yemen, Afghanistan, and Africa trafficking for forced begging. Hundreds of thousands of low-skilled workers from India, Indonesia, the Philippines, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Kenya migrate voluntarily to Saudi Arabia; some fall into conditions of involuntary servitude, suffering from physical and sexual abuse, non-payment or delayed payment of wages, the withholding of travel documents, restrictions on their freedom of movement and non-consensual contract alterations. The Government of Saudi Arabia does not comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking and is not making significant efforts to do so
I want them to accept that their religion is flawed just like everyone else's. I want them to say that the Quran is not perfect but has errors. I want them to say that rational thinking and reasoning trumps blind belief.Novice: What is it about Islam (as opposed to Muslims) that you want to see change, and how do you justify this need for this change in a way that is grounded in a solid foundation of some kind rather than in popular belief?
How can morality be a fully human notion. Does that mean when no humans existed on the earth the law of morality didnt? Of course not. Did logic not exist before humans? Of course not. Also, if morality is a human notion then everyone can make their own morality. Im sure lots of very evil people were very happy with their own morality book. Saying that everyone creates their own morality is absurd. Without a standard, anything goes. The only way to confirm that actions like the holocaust is actually evil is to appeal to a higher standard law of morals which exists outside of human nature.I don't know - why is it so important? Gravity is a law - it is objective. Doesn't matter if it was stalin or hitler both would fall to the ground from a height. Morality might be an entirely human notion after all.If there is no objective moral law then who is to say that stalin and hitler did evil things?
A law has to be created, thus its an effect. Laws don't just pop up out of nowhere, they have to be issued.
Also would you say that logic is also created by consciousness?
Why does a law has to be created? it's the same argument as the universe has to be created.
Even if it had to be created I fail to see how say the law of gravity was the effect of some cause.
Frankly I never thought where logic came from :D so thanks for this, maybe its fundamental maybe not.
Basically I don't know and I am quite fine by not knowing and being in doubt - I am very comfortable by not knowing - I don't have to rely on stories or books or rules for my answers or doubts.
Ideologies are made for people to follow eventually. They should encompass human behavior into their model.[deleted] to one point of Novice; the part you said that people arent evil but idiologies are
And i must oppose to that :-D
In their pure nature all idiologies/philosophies/religions, are not evil, the people that try to fullfill them/ use them are, as for Communism and Islam and Buddhism, all those ideas are positive, and the world would be a great place to live in, if they would be presented as they were invented, with one nation: human,
but the imperfection of people who tried to implement them, made them worse by far then how the world was...
As for Communism, if you will read books of Karl Marx, the idea itself its great and without evil, jealous, greedy, **** leaders would actually work
The point is if the ideology, hence the name, has some quality and would good for the human race
So your: "people=good, ideology=bad" is very wrong in my opinion..
We have cornered the market on visible transgressions, I'll give you that. But this pales in comparison to the atrocities the white European man has done to the world over the centuries, and continues to do in the most devious and invisible of ways. Your economies are built on the blood and resources of ignorant coloured people. The riches you enjoy today are the result of thefts that took place a long time ago that have set these other countries back for centuries, and will continue to do so for many more to come.
Given Islam's history of brutal imperialism and slavery, it seems strange you would make this a point. But as usual Islam's history is ignored and instead, Christianity is attacked because it actually reflects on its history, criticises itself and apologises. Even though it was Great Britain that ended the slave trade (1815) and then pressured Saudi & Yemen to "end" it (1962). Of course, by 'end' I mean they only criminalised it:
US State Department, 2005
Saudi Arabia is a destination for men and women from South and East Asia and East Africa trafficked for the purpose of labor exploitation, and for children from Yemen, Afghanistan, and Africa trafficking for forced begging. Hundreds of thousands of low-skilled workers from India, Indonesia, the Philippines, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Kenya migrate voluntarily to Saudi Arabia; some fall into conditions of involuntary servitude, suffering from physical and sexual abuse, non-payment or delayed payment of wages, the withholding of travel documents, restrictions on their freedom of movement and non-consensual contract alterations. The Government of Saudi Arabia does not comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking and is not making significant efforts to do so
I do not pretend to know much about Islam's history (I'd be willing to be educated though), but to pretend that Europe isn't the world's premier exporter of genocide and imperialism seems...strange. You say slave trade ended in 1815; what of the Scramble for Africa in 1880?
PS: No-one likes Saudi Arabia, and that includes Muslims. Take my word for it.
Ok I need to go eat but a last post before a small break.How can morality be a fully human notion. Does that mean when no humans existed on the earth the law of morality didnt? Of course not. Did logic not exist before humans? Of course not. Also, if morality is a human notion then everyone can make their own morality. Im sure lots of very evil people were very happy with their own morality book. Saying that everyone creates their own morality is absurd. Without a standard, anything goes. The only way to confirm that actions like the holocaust is actually evil is to appeal to a higher standard law of morals which exists outside of human nature.
And to answer your previous question I believe that morality comes from the eternal unchanging moral standard that is gods nature.
Remind me again how Christianity was flawed. I remember you giving reasons why you didn't like christianity , but I don't remember any flaws.
The slave trade wasn't limited to Saudi Arabia, that's just the last major country to end it. The history isn't hard to find or unknown, I thought it was common knowledge for most people. Here are some links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... slim_world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_i ... man_Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_i ... y_Islamism
If you honestly believe Christian slavery was worse than this, much less that Islam's history 'pales in comparison', then you are either delusional or ignorant.
+1Just here for the love of words: it's quite amusing a criticism of religion is called "wonderful" <3
I don't get the joke. Or the reference?Just here for the love of words: it's quite amusing a criticism of religion is called "wonderful" <3
What are the fundamental beliefs of Christianity then?Absolutely Christians can be wrong. On this occasion Christians decided to interpret a metaphor literally. And if you refer to slight inconsistencies in the bible they never bring into question any of Christianities fundamental beliefs, and also at the same time give more evidence that the bible has not been edited. If you have a lot of historical sources, since when do you expect them all to be the exact same. All these inconsistencies only argue for authenticity.
Also "The church opposed it", doesn't mean Christianity did, you are blaming people not the actual things that Christianity consists of. People can be wrong.
I already defined morality in my earlier post.
If there is no objective moral standard, then how can I be sure you are morally correct in saying "there is no objective moral standard"? And what? You googled it? Google isn't always right 11.
Also, logic and mathematics are philosophical equivalent. Is 1+1 not equal to 2 before humans were on the earth?? If thought produces logic then it can't be. But saying mathematics didn't exist before humans is absurd.
In criticism of religion, there is a tradition of disputing about wonders.I don't get the joke. Or the reference?Just here for the love of words: it's quite amusing a criticism of religion is called "wonderful" <3
Ah thanks. That is funny indeed lol!In criticism of religion, there is a tradition of disputing about wonders.I don't get the joke. Or the reference?Just here for the love of words: it's quite amusing a criticism of religion is called "wonderful" <3
Morality comes from the unchanging moral standard that is gods nature. Thus we humans can realize this moral standard from gods nature and call it morality. Yeah I guess we don't have to call it a law.That would be approximately my definition. But again, not finding anything on google is not grounds for deciding something doesn't exist :P.I already defined morality in my earlier post.
If there is no objective moral standard, then how can I be sure you are morally correct in saying "there is no objective moral standard"? And what? You googled it? Google isn't always right 11.
Also, logic and mathematics are philosophical equivalent. Is 1+1 not equal to 2 before humans were on the earth?? If thought produces logic then it can't be. But saying mathematics didn't exist before humans is absurd.
Where did you define morality please? I might have missed it, please pinpoint it.
Whether you can be sure or not of something is independent of the objectivity of morality.
I googled the law of morality - no such thing seemed to exist. I never heard of such a law either therefore I am concluding it does not exist. If it exists give me a decent reference and I will be happy to learn of another rational inquiry/philosophy.
There is a long debate which exists today about logic and mathematics being "equivalent". I have a different opinion on that though(which I see as really out of context of this discussion really).
1+1 = 2, in the context of mathematics at the very least required a rigorous proof in the 20th century.
You can certainly say 1 apple and another apple make two apples.
Let me explain here: there has to be a thought which says let me add another apple to another apple to get two apples.
Without a thought we are simply left with two apples - there is no process of adding - thus no logic is involved.
Applying logic is a thought process though. I don't entirely understand what you mean when you say logic existing independent of humans. Certainly gravity existed, but logic? Isn't that a part of the thought process itself. If there is no thought how can there be a thought process.
Not finding it on google comes pretty close.Morality comes from the unchanging moral standard that is gods nature. Thus we humans can realize this moral standard from gods nature and call it morality. Yeah I guess we don't have to call it a law.That would be approximately my definition. But again, not finding anything on google is not grounds for deciding something doesn't exist :P.
Um no. before humans were on earth, did 1 + 1 = 2? Before humans were on earth is the statement" There are no humans on the earth true"? 1 a mathematical query and the other a logical one. They don't need to be thought about to be posed. Yet if all logic and mathematics stems from human thought then clearly 1+1 = 2 and the other statement would both be pointless cause mathematics and logic didn't exist. Math not existing is clearly wrong, and the other leads to a self contradictory statement.
Oh btw galileo was known to be a christian same as many many famous scientists.