Wonderful criticism of Islam by my friend John Mendl.

A
#1
He has written a nice blog criticizing Islam.
Here is the link: http://exposingislamwithoutfear.blogspot.in/

First of all hats off to the author for taking the time out to get so well versed with the literature.
I salute this man's courage for discussing topics which are considered above criticism and commentary on which is often met with hate and retribution (read charlie hebdo).

We need to make the world a better place to live in. With courage, anything is possible.

My own philosophy in life revolves around being agnostic and being in doubt, so as to uncover the truth.
I cannot fathom why people choose to "believe" in anything without proof. I have optimism that the world will be a much better place without religion and blind belief some time later. The only thing is I would rather have that time be 50 years instead of 500 years.

Personally, I do not have to read a book to know if its good or bad. One can simply observe that by gauging the impact on readers.(I would read them but without "belief" they sound like horseshit and are unreadable.)

We have to start with Islam - it's contribution to science and society is a big zero, while acts of terrorism and hatred that it has inspired are countless. In my opinion it is the worst of the many many "beliefs" which have spawned on the planet. I find it my moral duty to oppose it tooth and nail. To leave the world a better place.

All over the world people are afraid. To criticize, to discuss, to improve on the said topic. If more people had the guts to stand up to passive bullying, the world would be a better place. Opinions from liberals, scholars and intellectuals would reach the ears of would be terrorists, before they listen to age old books or hate inspiring organisations like ISIS.

Inviting the Aoczone community for a courageous and open discussion.
 

AustraliaManu

Known Member
Mar 5, 2015
315
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#2
Re: Wonderful criticism of Islam by my friend Carlos Ferdina

I am not a muslim.
But I don't see where exactly you want to go with that kind of topic. (on a gaming community futhermore)
2 things : Why do you HAVE TO start with islam ?
Secondly how can you even throw judgment like "Islam contribution to society is zero" without any argument. Btw, this statement is false.

I invite a moderator to stay on top of this topic so it stay civilised though.
 
A
#3
Re: Wonderful criticism of Islam by my friend Carlos Ferdina

I agree that this is a gaming community, but aoczone is generally very open, and discussions on various topics are quite welcome and well received here. Furthermore the thread is under the topic community cafe(and not a specific gaming topic) so I hope we can have a discussion.

1) We have to start with Islam. When you clean a river you have to first stop the source of pollutants into it. I start with it since in my opinion it's the worst of the many many beliefs - as I have stated already in the first post. You have to start with something. All the other beliefs are slowly coming to grips with the power of doubt/logic/scientific evidence. Here is a famous quote from the Dalai Lama - “If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.”. But not Islam, Islam believes the Quran to be perfect - no changes are allowed. Today the pope called for an apology to homosexuals for the behavior of the church against them. Something like this from Islam is unimaginable. They are simply against any progressive change in this regard. I would be pretty okay with a bunch of people sitting in their utopia, believing in any fantasy they wanted, IF it did not inspire hatred and had no effect on other societies, but no it does inspire hatred and countless acts of terrorism and violence.

2) I meant it in the sphere of science. Consider the number of nobel prizes/fields medals/publications coming out of society riddled by Islam. They are more interested in reciting an age old book again and again. Madrasas are a plenty where logic doubt and criticism is quelled and blind belief is the only dogma. One prominent muslin scholar even argued that the counting of numbers was against Islam and Quran - guess what he got famous and that ended any scientific progress from the community for a millenia. It was at best minimum and when it occurred it was inspite of the religion.

With respect to society most of the laws and customs are barbaric, ancient and repressive.
Leaving the religion leads to death.
Homosexuality is a crime.
Women are oppressed.
Stoning of adulterers is encouraged in many parts.
Followers of other religions are treated like crap.

You want this to improve don't you?
On my part I promise to keep the discussion here civilised.
 
A
#8
It might be crap to you, but it was not crap for this woman and her family:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-scari ... Sharma-380

I am posting this "crap" because I want change. From within Islam. To shake the very foundations of belief and inspire doubt/logic and scientific inquiry. And as i said earlier so rational voices reach the ears of would be terrorists before the words of hatred,ISIS do. I want to do my part in promoting rational thinking and peace - which can only occur when the pillars of "belief" are shaken.

Don't you?
 
A
#9
http://exposingislamwithoutfear.blogspot.in/2016/06/clear-mathematical-error-in-quran.html
This was pretty interesting 11 such a simple math error, it really goes beyond me how people can follow something so blindly
Imagine being brainwashed into religion right from the day you were born.
Everyone around you believes in the same thing. It is very hard to go vs. society even in your own head. Most people lack the courage and logical faculties, knowledge and environment to come out from such a situation.

Once you achieve a high degree of brainwashing it is quite convenient and easy to come up with excuses and stories to cover up discrepancies in your belief.
 
Jun 15, 2008
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#10
I don't know how much Aoczone allows religious discussion, but at least it is the community cafe so I'm chiming in. As far as criticism of Islam is concerned it comes from two simple reasons:

1. Islam is an extreme negative and backward influence on the society. While it may be politically incorrect to say this, it is not hate speech against Muslims or to disturb the lives of peaceful Muslims. This is to encourage a critical discussion on the Islamic scriptures.
2. Islam at the same time has successfully managed to keep out criticism by calling its critics "Islamophobes" and "bigots". The only thing that is worse than a bad ideology is a bad ideology that is immune to criticism and misunderstood as decent or good. We should absolutely give Islam no mercy from criticism - it is a set of ideas. It is possible to be kind to Muslims and to love them as people while at the same time criticising Islam.

For those who say what is specially wrong about Islam, there are two crucial elements (and many more) that makes Islam uniquely and highly problematic.

1. Death penalty is what Islam prescribes for a Muslim who leaves the faith - it is well established in the hadiths. The quran doesn't clearly state this but is clear that families are to disown the members for choosing disbelief.
2. Islam places great emphasis on separating men and women unless they are close relatives or spouses. Romance and affection will practically disappear when a society takes Islam seriously. Men and women are forbidden or atleast discouraged from (a) spending time with each other (b) touching each other, even shaking hands (c) even looking each other eye-to-eye.
3. Apart from this there are many huge problems such as women's rights, Jihadism and world domination, female circumcision, child marriage and sex, sex slavery being permitted, death for homosexuality, adultery, chopping off hands for theft and so on.
 

UnknownBenhouse

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
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#11
A international and multicultural forum is probably one of the better places to discuss such things. Gives those a chance to speak honestly without fear where they'd face ridiculous consequences if they did it vocally.

I hate what feminism is becoming, but I hate much more strongly the treatment woman are brainwashed into accepting. A religion that when followed strictly denies equality between sexes should have no place in our modern world.
 

BelarusLavie_Head

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#12
A
#13
a bit of a hypocrisy to emphasize violence against women considering how much the same indian society is
It might be - that is another war, there is much that is wrong with the world and I do not want to focus on everything at the same time - it takes the focus off of individual issues. Furthermore I still consider Islam to be the bigger threat. The treatment of women in Indian society is nowhere as bad as that under Islamic societies - though there is much to be done. They are at the very least fundamentally equal by law - compared to an Islamic country like Saudi Arabia where women are not even allowed to drive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s ... udi_Arabia
Heard of triple talaq? google it please.

There are widespread women's right activists and movements here working to change the condition of women. Also what you emphasized was not related to religion. Religion is not the cause of discrepancy between women's rights in India - it is society - this is not the case with Islam - the belief in Quran is equally responsible for women's plight in Islamic societies.
Here are some sources you can read up on (from a quick google search about women's right and Quran)
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles ... n_tha.html
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... -less.aspx
One might say that I have given links to only anti Islamic sites.
Here is one Islamic website which argues how men and women in Quran are equals:
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/men_a ... _balanced_

I will quote an excerpt from the website just to show what the author believes is "equal" under Islam:
Men are superior when it comes to certain rights that they have over women (authority and expect obedience from the wife unless he asks her to do something impermissible; asking for sexual intercourse whenever they please unless the woman has her menses, is fasting on compulsory days or the intercourse could cause her physical harm; having more than one spouse etc.) and women are superior when it comes to rights that they have over men.
I rile up in disgust when I fathom what the author there considers as equality and rights. Any rational person can read the pages on the links and judge for themselves though.

What you are arguing is A compared to B is bad too so I should not focus on B.
It does not rule out the FACT that B is bad/even worse and is not a defense of B.
PS: This argument is what most politicians here give when pushed into a corner. No water in area X, but that's ok first tell me why there's no water in Y. You cannot defend X by giving this argument but just shift the blame. :cry:
 
Jun 15, 2008
7,671
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#14
The biggest problem here is that Islamic texts are considered authoritative and not to be questioned being the infallible words of god/teachings of their role model Muhammad. This creates a unique problem to eradicating the low status of women in Islam. Compared to India - we are progressing fast in this regard because we aren't bound by religious texts that institutionalize those practices anywhere near as Islamic world clearly is.
 

Ireland_Melkor

Halberdier
Jun 20, 2011
1,394
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#15
My own philosophy in life revolves around being agnostic and being in doubt, so as to uncover the truth.
I cannot fathom why people choose to "believe" in anything without proof. I have optimism that the world will be a much better place without religion and blind belief some time later. The only thing is I would rather have that time be 50 years instead of 500 years.
There is loads of proof for theism.
A one cell life form, has enough encoded information equal to about 1000 encyclopedias. Its basically thes ame thing as a really complex computer code. Any slight change to this information results in the death of this life form or harmful mutation. How can this have been created by nothing? Or by random laws of nature? The second law of thermodynamics and entropy says it can't have been and points to a designer.

Loads of other things too, like if the expansion rate of the universe was different by 1/1 hundred thousand million million one second after the big bang, the universe would have collapsed or never created galaxies. If the gravitaional force differed by 1/10^40 the earth/sun and us would never have been created.

Clearly the current universe is ridiculously fine tuned, and evidence would suggest that if there is clear indications of design then there is a designer. Of course that still isn't cold proof, but its sure more evidence for theism then atheism.
 
A
#16
I said I was agnostic not an atheist.
Basically I don't really care about god and believe that nothing can be known either way.

How can this have been created by nothing? Or by random laws of nature? The second law of thermodynamics and entropy says it can't have been and points to a designer.
If I don't know the answer to a question doesn't mean I will start pointing at god. The second law of thermodynamics and entropy don't say what you think they mean.

Loads of other things too, like if the expansion rate of the universe was different by 1/1 hundred thousand million million one second after the big bang, the universe would have collapsed or never created galaxies. If the gravitaional force differed by 1/10^40 the earth/sun and us would never have been created.
Same argument as above really. Just because we don't know everything doesn't mean god is involved.

Clearly the current universe is ridiculously fine tuned, and evidence would suggest that if there is clear indications of design then there is a designer. Of course that still isn't cold proof, but its sure more evidence for theism then atheism.
As you said its not proof and if you believe it is then I don't think "proof" means what you think it means. Neither is it more evidence for theism than atheism really.

That being said the topic here was not my religion or belief my friend - but I would be happy to discuss it too.
To me the greatest mystery is that of consciousness and sentience - but sadly there are no theories or experiments yet that can resolve it for me. I find it a wonder to be alive and to be able to think in a universe made of inanimate matter.
I think, therefore I am.
 
A
#17
Here is where you can read up more about the second law of thermodynamics and its philosophical ramifications as well its relationship to theology:
http://philosophy.stackexchange.com/que ... modynamics

Stackexchange sites are wonderful for specific questions about any topic. They are a community of eminent scholars, professors, students and generally a wonderful place to get answers to specific questions especially about science, maths, logic, philosophy and other "hard" subjects.
PS: By hard i mean subjects which have answers which are objective and can be proved instead of opinions and subjective stuff.
 

GermanyJineapple

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#18
My own philosophy in life revolves around being agnostic and being in doubt, so as to uncover the truth.
I cannot fathom why people choose to "believe" in anything without proof. I have optimism that the world will be a much better place without religion and blind belief some time later. The only thing is I would rather have that time be 50 years instead of 500 years.
There is loads of proof for theism.
A one cell life form, has enough encoded information equal to about 1000 encyclopedias. Its basically thes ame thing as a really complex computer code. Any slight change to this information results in the death of this life form or harmful mutation. How can this have been created by nothing? Or by random laws of nature? The second law of thermodynamics and entropy says it can't have been and points to a designer.

Loads of other things too, like if the expansion rate of the universe was different by 1/1 hundred thousand million million one second after the big bang, the universe would have collapsed or never created galaxies. If the gravitaional force differed by 1/10^40 the earth/sun and us would never have been created.

Clearly the current universe is ridiculously fine tuned, and evidence would suggest that if there is clear indications of design then there is a designer. Of course that still isn't cold proof, but its sure more evidence for theism then atheism.
Or maybe the reason the universe is apparently so "fine-tuned" is because this particular universe made life possible - and there are plenty of other universes where that isn't the case and there's simple no life forms around to wonder about such things.

Life and the universe are mysterious and complex things. I can absolutely understand why someone would believe they require some form of designer. I don't personally think so, but it's a position I can respect and that makes sense to me.
What I don't understand is the leap to a certain specific religion. What makes you think that this particular one out of the hundreds or thousands of other religions have got it right? That this particular holy book is the correct one? In most cases it's not even something people think about, they just go with whatever religion their parents have...
 
A
#19
Life and the universe are mysterious and complex things. I can absolutely understand why someone would believe they require some form of designer. I don't personally think so, but it's a position I can respect and that makes sense to me.
What I don't understand is the leap to a certain specific religion. What makes you think that this particular one out of the hundreds or thousands of other religions have got it right? That this particular holy book is the correct one? In most cases it's not even something people think about, they just go with whatever religion their parents have...
Thank you that is my position on the subject as well.! Excellently written.
The problem is shoving down ideologies down children's throat who cannot think for themselves well enough and brainwashing them in the process. Mostly because you are afraid of going to hell. And I can understand that this brainwashing is really really hard to overcome. I don't really care about you believing in god or not - that is your personal tryst with the universe and existence, but some ideologies which are shoved down the throat are more toxic than others. Especially those that believe they are perfect and require no change in spite of them being harmful in the current social and cultural scenario in the world.
 

Ireland_Melkor

Halberdier
Jun 20, 2011
1,394
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#21
Being agnostic makes some sense to me, but what a lot of people don't get, is that being an atheist is its own religion. They believe that there is no god. Many also believe that the world came into being by itself. Something was made out of nothing by no one. This could be the atheist creed.
The multiverse theory does qualify to explain how life cells originated, but its far more of a dodge then to say there was a designer.
 
A
#22
More proofs for the existence of god:
- https://crypto.stanford.edu/pbc/notes/pi/ramanujan.html I mean seriously how can this thing be 1/pi? :o-o:
- vector fields on spheres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_fields_on_spheres :o-o:
- the number of Independent components of the Riemann curvature Tensor
- all the funny things happening in dimension 4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exotic_R4
- 27 lines on a cubic surface

existence of god confirmed
Please go get your fields medal already. :lol: :lol: :shock:
 

Switzerlandbulletchen

Known Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#23
My own philosophy in life revolves around being agnostic and being in doubt, so as to uncover the truth.
I cannot fathom why people choose to "believe" in anything without proof. I have optimism that the world will be a much better place without religion and blind belief some time later. The only thing is I would rather have that time be 50 years instead of 500 years.
There is loads of proof for theism.
A one cell life form, has enough encoded information equal to about 1000 encyclopedias. Its basically thes ame thing as a really complex computer code. Any slight change to this information results in the death of this life form or harmful mutation. How can this have been created by nothing? Or by random laws of nature? The second law of thermodynamics and entropy says it can't have been and points to a designer.

Loads of other things too, like if the expansion rate of the universe was different by 1/1 hundred thousand million million one second after the big bang, the universe would have collapsed or never created galaxies. If the gravitaional force differed by 1/10^40 the earth/sun and us would never have been created.

Clearly the current universe is ridiculously fine tuned, and evidence would suggest that if there is clear indications of design then there is a designer. Of course that still isn't cold proof, but its sure more evidence for theism then atheism.
+1 you can't prove it so no need for a discussion.
 

AustraliaSocksyy

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#24
Personally i find these kinds of threads great reads for learning. Also finding out how others use different topics when argueing about a particular case.
 
Jun 22, 2014
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#25
As a muslim, majority of muslims dont represente Islam, you can clearly see that, Go study islam not muslims then come here to attack us with your nonsense. I find this topics very offensif to me, as most muslims will find it too we cant accept this. im here to play games not argue with a man hiding before his computer trash talking my religion. I hope we end this topic here.
 

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