The 50 best Age of Empires 2 players of all time as voted by expert players (#5 to #1 is up)

[i_no_english]

Almost 2 years since this list was made, and in the meantime a lot of big tournaments have happened. Perhaps its time for an update? Some thought from my end:

* Villese and Vinchester should surely enter top 50. Somewhere around rank 30-35 perhaps?

* ACCM has been a pretty consistent top 10/12 player these last years and could make it in. Not as high as Villese and Vinchester though but I feel he deserves a 45-50 spot maybe.

* Are there any others that could make it? Perhaps miguel for being very solid for a long period of time (also taking into account the Voobly TG days). From the 'new' players I think Sitaux has the best chances but I am not sure if he is considered top 50 all time yet. I think all other new players like Valas, Barles, SongSong, Daniel etc are worse than Sitaux.

* Liereyy should move up to top 5 and arguably top 3.

* Yo and Hera should also move up a few spots and perhaps also closer together? I do still think that Yo should be ahead of Hera considering his longevity.

* TaToH moves up at least 1 spot due to his RBWL victory?

* Other active players that should move up a few spots? I can see Nicov, MbL, Capoch, dogao and Jordan all move up a spot or two. They have all done pretty well these last years in tournaments. Cyclops, F1re, Zuppi, vivi, slam, TheMax, BacT, Alive and Tim have not very outstanding results since the last list (if I am not mistaken).

Let me know what you think guys!

 

[_Donatello_]

I agree Vinchester and Villese prob should be in, but maybe better to just make a list over active players and then the tournament elo one is pretty good. People will never agree on a top player list anyway. Like I think no list can not have Halen, Grunt and Koven in the top 5, almost nomatter how many turney Liereyy wins for me he will be behind them even if I know he is superior to their peak lvl (he prob deserves top 5 if im objective), while others don't care about what happend in the beginning and want the new active experts to be in it.

Maybe make a topic for top DE players, top 4 is IMO pretty set in stone but top 10 would probably be highly debatable

 

[oozkan]

Ah ****, here we go again.

 

[nimanoe]

Like I think no list can not have Halen, Grunt and Koven in the top 5, almost nomatter how many turney Liereyy wins for me he will be behind them even if I know he is superior to their peak lvl (he prob deserves top 5 if im objective), while others don't care about what happend in the beginning and want the new active experts to be in it.

Who out of Chris, Daut and Viper do you think should not be in the top 5 then?

 

[_Donatello_]

When you ask me on the spot I can't take any of them out of top 5, but my first instinct is nostalgia and I would say Koven - Grunt - Halen - Chris - Daut top 5.

After I returned to the game I learned about Vipers history so I can't really change the top 5 of original list, he is nr 1 deserved its just that I missed his whole period of dominance exept the last years and I don't follow as closly as I did when I were a kid, so if i HAD to pick I would pick Viper ^^ but original list is good

edit: but this is more my favorite players then top player of all time

 

[kalpit00]

In the current era, (DE), all the old players will need time and commitment to keep up with the meta. The vice versa is not the same. Haven't seen much of the legends at all so I shouldn't make this comparison but as far as I know, the korean legends like Koven, Grunt, Halen were experienced RTS players, who (I guess) had high APM. Although the game wasn't nearly dependent on speed back in the days as it is now, especially due to high lag and freezes, I would give them a fair chance to make it top 15-20. I mean I sometimes watch Chris's stream and it feels like he has the positional understanding of the game and the required effective APM to keep up with top 8 (like the way he sees games is very much like how Yo Daut or Viper see the game - a more holistic view, in contrast you have upcoming fast players like Sitaux, Daniel who are very micro oriented and look for those timing attacks or outmicroing small groups of units)

One player I loved watching and miss dearly is Riut, that guy was a beast. "Top top player", as Ronaldo likes to say, and in his prime, Riut was beating Viper/Jordan who at the time were considered top 2 players. Even in the occasional Riut streams a few years ago, watching him was a pleasure because of his macro oriented style - much like the Viper. I hope he comes back again, because he is in my top 5 of All-Time players.

All of this being said, I think the level is increasing in general. The legends from 2001-2009 would still lose to a current top 12-16 player like Sitaux, especially if you consider the fact micro has improved so much nowadays. And not just micro, new civs which bring such strong plays (like Poles with their knight spam, I think even a 2k1 player would overrun the legends from back then with this civ)

 

[Dusk2Dawn]

Been saying this: top 10 players of all time are 10 players that are still playing the game; all the nostalgy aka emotion doesn't make any difference

 

[HongeyKong]

Been saying this: top 10 players of all time are 10 players that are still playing the game; all the nostalgy aka emotion doesn't make any difference

All time greats have nothing to do with absolute skill level......

 

[SouFire]

The game is in a constant evolution, when siestes was gathering info to make this topic i suggested him to take in consideration those pro players who ruled the game for longer periods rather than just one or two good results in their peak, the big old names had very short dominance and they weren't even constant keeping the 1 spot or 2 or 3, they were equally skilled back then. Then if you try to measure their skills to current skill they were not that great considering the macro and micro that you need on our times to be a pro player above the rest.

Koven, grunt and halen did comeback in 2013 or so and they couldn't even get more than 2100 back then, considering that daut is closer to their age and he is still a top 10 player then we can clearly see how big is the gap, the only player from the old times who got back into big things is capoch and no one else so in my book he deserves a better spot than koven or grunt cause he managed to adapt to the new demands of this game.

When koven, grunt and halen came back they were getting paid to only play aoe2, so they tried their best and couldn't meet the skill requirements to get to the top, i can't remember a single pro player who got paid back then a salary to go aoe2 full time, that comeback imo changed the perspective we should have about them being the lords of the 2001-2003 cause back at those years the game wasn't that evolved to keep remembering those times as the golden era.

 

[Rayne]

Koven, grunt and halen did comeback in 2013 or so and they couldn't even get more than 2100 back then, considering that daut is closer to their age and he is still a top 10 player then we can clearly see how big is the gap, the only player from the old times who got back into big things is capoch and no one else so in my book he deserves a better spot than koven or grunt cause he managed to adapt to the new demands of this game.

I just want to say this is partially false.

Koven got to 2250 or so after about a year of becoming active back in 2014. Grunt did reach around 2100. Halen didn’t really play much at all, but what was interesting is from the leaked (or posted, might be mixing the Dex clan leaks) games is that Halen played drush into maa a little too well in the 1v1s. Something he never did or even knew much of. Considering the only other time he played was when he got banned on GamePark, that was actually very impressive. Don’t know why he didn’t do rated on his tyrant “return”, it was only the tyrant games or he secretly smurfed but didn’t seem like it.

What he did though feels sort of reminiscent of Iori when he came back around end of GamePark/beginning of IGZ (can’t remember specific time, around 2007-2008) and got 2300 unusually fast. Iori was also the very first ever top player back then to demonstrate a Hun CA mass could be stopped with mangonels and knights in a game vs a player like Dreams. Legends are always given discredit which is saddening. They understood everything up to the ceiling as it was understood then and could play all/most of it, so with that level of intelligence/ability, I never understood why people treated them like they became braindead or something (sadly the most accurate word imo).

What Capoch did was incredible, I completely agree. Getting 2500 in little over a year in a completely new era is something for the history books. The only players I recall who ever had such swift rises were Viper and Hera. I don’t think anyone else has come close like that. Even then too, Capoch‘s is a one of a kind thing.


Edit: Actually, it feels like I’m getting too old these days.

I remember Halen secretly playing for awhile in the poz clan sometime during 2009. He was 2200 with some win/loss ratio like 120/22 or something. Most of those were tgs I believe (RM General Rating). Then I think he made another nick when it was found out called ChunYu_Shing which was in the low 1700s lol (some joke with Yanzi as I recall). I think this stuff had something to do with him being banned and Karl posted the chat to admins on forums to get him unbanned (he was framed by a cheater in his 2v2). Halen said he was old, rusty, and just wanted to have fun without anyone really knowing it was him. Guess he just didn’t wanna be judged by the “OMG you’re Halen? Hey weren’t you 2500? Why are you bad now? etc” Can’t say I blame him, probably wanted more out of life than to get 2500 again. Probably why he never really cared much when it came to the Tyrant “comeback.”

 

[_Donatello_]

Koven, grunt and halen did comeback in 2013 or so and they couldn't even get more than 2100 back then

Just want to add they actually won that tournament they came back for, you make it seems like they came back and were crushed.

And your own example Capoch and Daut were beaten by Grunt in AoC, AoM (Capoch) and for Daut also AoE3 and Rise of Nation. Grunt were better then them in every game so I think its fair to assume he were a top tier talent in the class of Viper. Halen and Koven also did great in other games, but they dissapeared earlier from the scene.

We will never know because they moved on to other games or retierd when money dried up, but Capoch showed that the old school can still be contesters in the modern game. If Chris nolifed like he did back then im sure he also would get top 10 easy, and I think more of the old school could do this if they cared enough and tried.

Would be really cool with a podcast or something with Daut, Capoch and Chris + others talking about the old zone, they lived it and prob knows more then anyone about who the best players were. There were a big topic on L clan forum about AoC history, but sadly its gone long time ago.

but as you say the game evolved and I agree ofc the top players today are more skillfull then the old school (most of them got 10 year practice+ vs 2), not to mention laser mouse vs trackmouse and other techinical improvments.

and @ Kalpit00, again Capoch just beat Sitaux in warlods qualifier, yes ofc any top 100 players today could beat any old pro if they went back in time and played modern vs old, but old players also would adapt to the new meta and civs like Capoch were able to.

 

[Michaerbse]

* Yo and Hera should also move up a few spots and perhaps also closer together? I do still think that Yo should be ahead of Hera considering his longevity.

I'm not sure whether they should be closer together. Since the list was made, these are their achivements in S-tier 1v1 events:

Hera:

• Hidden Cup 4 Winner
• HOLY Cup Winner
  
  
• Red Bull Wololo 4 Runner Up
  
  
• RMS Cup 2 Semifinal
• T90 Titans League Semifinal
• Red Bull Wololo: Legacy Semifinal
  
  
• Red Bull Wololo 3 Quarterfinal
• Red Bull Wololo 5 Quarterfinal
  
  
• King of the Desert 4 #9-#12
• Wandering Warriors Cup #9-#12

Yo:

• The Open Classic Winner
• The Resurgence Winner
• RMS Cup 2 Winner
  
  
• Hidden Cup 4 Semifinal
  
  
• Red Bull Wololo 3 Quarterfinal
• Red Bull Wololo 4 Quarterfinal
• HOLY Cup Quarterfinal
• King of the Desert 4 Quarterfinal
• Wandering Warriors Cup Quarterfinal
• T90 Titans League Quarterfinal
• Red Bull Wololo: Legacy Quarterfinal

It looks quite similar, maybe with a slight edge for Hera.

Yet, imo Hera was the most overrated players among the top players - this is not meant as an offense in any way but being #2 for 10 months shouldn't really give you a top 10 spot in a ranking that covers 20 years.

 

[Liamsmalley7]

Jordan should be ahead of Ruso, even back when this list was created. Not sure how that one was decided.

 

[Rayne]

Would be really cool with a podcast or something with Daut, Capoch and Chris + others talking about the old zone, they lived it and prob knows more then anyone about who the best players were. There were a big topic on L clan forum about AoC history, but sadly its gone long time ago.

I was just sitting here bored and going through random stuff, but this aoc history topic, was it regarding stuff like Gutter_Rat, Sheriff, Mozart and etc? I didn’t know there was one like that on legion when I came to those forums in 2004, but rather aocgroup (unless it migrated it from legion to there). This is probably the closest we have to that thing:

AOE-II - Who did the strategy first?

When we are watching an arabia 1v1 game, especially in huns wars, sometimes we see some different strategies that change the fate of the game, make us love AoC even more or end up failing miserably. I think we should give the inventors of the proper credit, so I ask for your help to find the...

www.aoezone.net

Funito’s memory as always, is precious. Some of the stuff written brings back memories of my own. I actually didn’t know/remember Daut was the first to “make” the 25 pop stable defense vs fwd. If he did, it makes more sense why Daut hung onto 25 pop for many years during the Chris vs Daut rivalry. It was literally a clash of ideas, not just who was the best player.

 

[HongeyKong]

We’ve been going back and forth for a century
[Chris] I like to go forward
[Daut] I dare you to rush me
There are rush and boom playstyles and good reasons to play them
[Chris] You need clicking rates
[Daut] No… it’s the macro and tactics

 

[_Donatello_]

I was just sitting here bored and going through random stuff, but this aoc history topic, was it regarding stuff like Gutter_Rat, Sheriff, Mozart and etc? I didn’t know there was one like that on legion when I came to those forums in 2004, but rather aocgroup (unless it migrated it from legion to there). This is probably the closest we have to that thing:

AOE-II - Who did the strategy first?

When we are watching an arabia 1v1 game, especially in huns wars, sometimes we see some different strategies that change the fate of the game, make us love AoC even more or end up failing miserably. I think we should give the inventors of the proper credit, so I ask for your help to find the...

www.aoezone.net

Funito’s memory as always, is precious. Some of the stuff written brings back memories of my own. I actually didn’t know/remember Daut was the first to “make” the 25 pop stable defense vs fwd. If he did, it makes more sense why Daut hung onto 25 pop for many years during the Chris vs Daut rivalry. It was literally a clash of ideas, not just who was the best player.

Yea was about who won what and who came up with what strat etc, much the same as the topic you linked and now also liquidpedia gathered most of the old tournament results

I actually found it now on wayback, but much of it can't be read

I see it was started by bsk_poison, I sitll see him in Chris stream from time to time, he prob also could chip in with some history.

Is there a history of the development of Age anywhere???? - The Legion Clan Forum

web.archive.org

Edit: the way back from 2010 is way better, but you can still only read first page, alot of gold in the other pages also.

Is there a history of the development of Age anywhere???? - The Legion Clan Forum

Is there a history of the development of Age anywhere????:

web.archive.org

 

[EricDolphy]

I think the list is good as it stands, it's about what experts voted at a certain period of time and it should stay like that. If we want/need a list that reflects what's going on now then we need "The best AoE 2 players of 2022" or since DE. I don't think an ever changing list makes any sense.

 

[Dusk2Dawn]

You are missing the elephant in the room: the title and the point: it's best players of all time and today's top players would wipe the floor with all the oldies who are not playing; Watched 2001 world cyber games final on LAN; memb would've defeated both finalists

 

[Degaussed]

You are missing the elephant in the room: the title and the point: it's best players of all time and today's top players would wipe the floor with all the oldies who are not playing; Watched 2001 world cyber games final on LAN; memb would've defeated both finalists

Are these on YT or anything? Would love to see these games.

 

[Dusk2Dawn]

1v1 FOR $20K! - AoE2 in 2001

Learn to play Age of Empires: https://learnaoe.com LIKE and SUBSCRIBE if you enjoyed this content -ECL Streams: http://twitch.tv/escapeaoe ECL Info: http://a...

www.youtube.com

20k for first place, bo1 final

 

[Degaussed]

1v1 FOR $20K! - AoE2 in 2001

Learn to play Age of Empires: https://learnaoe.com LIKE and SUBSCRIBE if you enjoyed this content -ECL Streams: http://twitch.tv/escapeaoe ECL Info: http://a...

www.youtube.com

20k for first place, bo1 final

Wow

 

[Rayne]

Yea was about who won what and who came up with what strat etc, much the same as the topic you linked and now also liquidpedia gathered most of the old tournament results

I actually found it now on wayback, but much of it can't be read

I see it was started by bsk_poison, I sitll see him in Chris stream from time to time, he prob also could chip in with some history.

Is there a history of the development of Age anywhere???? - The Legion Clan Forum

web.archive.org

Edit: the way back from 2010 is way better, but you can still only read first page, alot of gold in the other pages also.

Is there a history of the development of Age anywhere???? - The Legion Clan Forum

Is there a history of the development of Age anywhere????:

web.archive.org

Ah 2006, no wonder. Actually insane tbh. I’m sad I can’t go further 11. I had no idea Karl was a super old timer too. It seemed like he was always friends with every top player, such a rare thing.

Surprising to learn a bit about the Devilz clan, heard ancient tales about those guys. I find it funny too that Gutter_Rat has occasionally been thrown around, but there was literally never a rec game of him in existence. I remember there was one or two of The Sheriff if I’m not mistaken (unless it was a famous fake like a Koven 1v1), but somehow never Gutter_Rat.

 

[SouFire]

I just want to say this is partially false.

Koven got to 2250 or so after about a year of becoming active back in 2014. Grunt did reach around 2100. Halen didn’t really play much at all, but what was interesting is from the leaked (or posted, might be mixing the Dex clan leaks) games is that Halen played drush into maa a little too well in the 1v1s. Something he never did or even knew much of. Considering the only other time he played was when he got banned on GamePark, that was actually very impressive. Don’t know why he didn’t do rated on his tyrant “return”, it was only the tyrant games or he secretly smurfed but didn’t seem like it.

What he did though feels sort of reminiscent of Iori when he came back around end of GamePark/beginning of IGZ (can’t remember specific time, around 2007-2008) and got 2300 unusually fast. Iori was also the very first ever top player back then to demonstrate a Hun CA mass could be stopped with mangonels and knights in a game vs a player like Dreams. Legends are always given discredit which is saddening. They understood everything up to the ceiling as it was understood then and could play all/most of it, so with that level of intelligence/ability, I never understood why people treated them like they became braindead or something (sadly the most accurate word imo).

What Capoch did was incredible, I completely agree. Getting 2500 in little over a year in a completely new era is something for the history books. The only players I recall who ever had such swift rises were Viper and Hera. I don’t think anyone else has come close like that. Even then too, Capoch‘s is a one of a kind thing.


Edit: Actually, it feels like I’m getting too old these days.

I remember Halen secretly playing for awhile in the poz clan sometime during 2009. He was 2200 with some win/loss ratio like 120/22 or something. Most of those were tgs I believe (RM General Rating). Then I think he made another nick when it was found out called ChunYu_Shing which was in the low 1700s lol (some joke with Yanzi as I recall). I think this stuff had something to do with him being banned and Karl posted the chat to admins on forums to get him unbanned (he was framed by a cheater in his 2v2). Halen said he was old, rusty, and just wanted to have fun without anyone really knowing it was him. Guess he just didn’t wanna be judged by the “OMG you’re Halen? Hey weren’t you 2500? Why are you bad now? etc” Can’t say I blame him, probably wanted more out of life than to get 2500 again. Probably why he never really cared much when it came to the Tyrant “comeback.”

I actually forgot that, that koven kept grinding for over a year after the big tyrant sponsor and yeah he eventually got a higher elo on his smurf account, but actually that makes things look even worse for him, because that means he actually tried to get better and all he could achieve was that, while for capoch it took him less than a year to be 2500 on the DE.


As for @_Donatello_ yeah they won their tg thingy, cause they were living the dream back then, being paid for playing full time a high salary(i remember kkab explained that on this forums), lets not forget during those years most aoe2 pro players used to play for free basically(chris made a big drama about it) cause they were not in the same circumstances t was like a team picked from the streets playing vs professionals in terms of preparations so you better see things as they actually were and not focusing only in the outcome.

I don't care about aoe3 or aom early results, that is like saying within 5 years that viper used to be an aoe4 legend cause he won the first thingy...

 

[Rayne]

I actually forgot that, that koven kept grinding for over a year after the big tyrant sponsor and yeah he eventually got a higher elo on his smurf account, but actually that makes things look even worse for him, because that means he actually tried to get better and all he could achieve was that, while for capoch it took him less than a year to be 2500 on the DE.


As for @_Donatello_ yeah they won their tg thingy, cause they were living the dream back then, being paid for playing full time a high salary(i remember kkab explained that on this forums), lets not forget during those years most aoe2 pro players used to play for free basically(chris made a big drama about it) cause they were not in the same circumstances t was like a team picked from the streets playing vs professionals in terms of preparations so you better see things as they actually were and not focusing only in the outcome.

I don't care about aoe3 or aom early results, that is like saying within 5 years that viper used to be an aoe4 legend cause he won the first thingy...

I get your point, but it’s a bit more different than you think/remember (I know you’ve been around a long time too).

For Koven, it was still incredible because 2250 was a seriously good rating. Ratings meant more back then. It was nearly “one level” below the top (one could consider 2300 one below back then). The maximum rating back then was only around/in the 2400 range, with exception of Viper being around 2500 until his nick got owned by decay like everyone else and his dropped to around 2370. If someone was around 2190-2200, they were already on first rating page which only consisted of top 20.

Not only that, but in order to break 2300 back then, you’d have players like Viper, Riut, Jordan (think he was semi-retired then), dogao, Nicov, Fire etc join your game and you’d have to beat them in order to earn your stripes. They were the 2300 gatekeepers unless someone preyed on the weak.

 

[_Donatello_]

so you better see things as they actually were and not focusing only in the outcome.

I feel your arguments are the same as saying Maradona don't belong to the best football players in history because he only had 2-3 really strong years and you really nitpick what you want and ignore facts.

Or you maybe think your own Carlos vela is a greater player then Maradona because he play in the modern game and had a longer career?

I don't care about aoe3 or aom early results, that is like saying within 5 years that viper used to be an aoe4 legend cause he won the first thingy...

I knew you would not, it was more to show you that your statement here was wrong about they just staying 1-2 years and mentioning that they actually won what they came for since you said

they tried their best and couldn't meet the skill requirements to get to the top

the big old names had very short dominance and they weren't even constant keeping the 1 spot or 2 or 3, they were equally skilled back then

This is also false, Koven held #1 from 99 intill he retierd (02 according to OP list) then Halen took it, Grunt as far as I know never held 1, but he had some high rating nicks and won tournaments. When they all changed game Chris took it, then it was between him and Daut intill Viper.

Grunt also played from AoK intill 03 (this is 4 years not 1 or 2) then he dominated the other pros in other games intill 08-09 (AoE3 TAD expansion). And according to OP list he were also AoC active in these years so again much longer then "1 or 2 years". And yea they were not evenly matched, again Koven was undisputed 1 as long as he stayed, you can throw in 10 more nicks who the nr 2 was (Chris, Geek, Fire, Grunt, Halen, Capoch, RD_Champion, Jordan, kmkm+++ take your pick)

And no it is not the same as saying Viper is AoE4 legend, if Viper had played and held top ranking + won all the biggest tournaments in AoE4 for several years and set the meta each patch you could say it was the same, Viper tournament win was what 1 week into AoE4, Grunt made the meta for years in AoE3.


I think you joined the scene under voobly when the game was "dead" and had 1500 people online max and underestimate how many players that played AoC on the zone, it was really buzzing and alive and you can compare it more with today then the voobly years.

That a player like pG_fire don't even make the top 50 or get a mention I find criminal when I see alot of the other nicks on this list, he like Grunt were competive and changed games for money after AoC and won WSG AoM and later became WC3 pro, but AoC was his original game (Like Chris he was teenage prodigy, going to the top very very young 13-14 yo).

I think when you watch their game you compaire them with Viper 2013 and not seeing them for the time they were played.

Like the Kkab post you mention I also remember it differently, yea they got payed and Chris made drama about it, but I also remember KKab saying Halen did not take it seriously because he were already rich and played drunk every night for practce, and then you say Koven grinded games for a year like he tried to go top, he was sponsored to play a few games a month and this is what he played as I remember it, if 5 games a month is "grinding" ok, but this I can be wrong about since I were not very active in the scene around that time.