The 50 best Age of Empires 2 players of all time as voted by expert players (#5 to #1 is up)

[RobChang]

Thanks @hallogallo

 

[_Donatello_]

Alot of the koreans played in the same cybercafe, Koven, Grunt, RD_Champion + many others. kkab said in a post they often were 30 2k players hanging there all day so they propably got training from one of their friends so its easier to remember who, while western players learned from eachother from forums, record games,ingame etc. so they were kinda more selfmade and did not have one spesific trainer learning them the basics of the game.

Same with top Taiwan players, all from same cybercafe, makes it easier to become good when you learn from everyone around you.

@soulfire i think most people agree with you new gen are better mechanical players then first gen, its obvious, and nobody been saying elfanor, mimmox or any old legends are better then Daut or Chris, they are also nr 2/3 on the OP's list so im not sure who you argue with. Lists like this is never 100% right and should be taken for a fun read, not the absolute truth.

 

[CondoM]

I remember a lot of come backs from ancient legends, on game park they got 1800 on igzones 1700, take ruso as example from 2600 to 1900 in voobly, abe the best old mexican from 2300 to 1800 in voobly, great players from the past had a hard time adapting to the faster and evolved meta, well even jordan from 2700 voobly to 2200 voobly 2 years later, when you see those cases and believe me there are plenty more, instead of remember or ranking a player for one or two good years, you have to take into consideration the other years and the most recent especially since the game level keeps increasing.

You have to take into consideration that most of these guys have a life outside of gaming. They were likely at the top while they were still young and in high school or uni when they have time to play aoc 8 hours a day. When they came back later on, I would be the majority of them would have had major time restrictions.

 

[Rayne]

Alot of the koreans played in the same cybercafe, Koven, Grunt, RD_Champion + many others. kkab said in a post they often were 30 2k players hanging there all day so they propably got training from one of their friends so its easier to remember who, while western players learned from eachother from forums, record games,ingame etc. so they were kinda more selfmade and did not have one spesific trainer learning them the basics of the game.

Same with top Taiwan players, all from same cybercafe, makes it easier to become good when you learn from everyone around you.

Wow, really? That sounds pretty awesome. Had no idea of stuff like that. This topic has been amazing the last few pages.

 

[i_no_english]

Didn't a lot of the strong Vietnamese players also come from one particular cyber cafe?

 

[_Donatello_]

Yes, I were abit off, " all korean expert stay net cafe 12+hours everyday. i don't think 10+ 2k~2.5k player missed some strategies before. " - Kkab quote from here and here

Taiwan players I don't got source on, got it from AoM forum back in the days, Shiatzu (not sure if he played AoC, then under different nick, achived highest rating ever on AoM, think top 4 WSG) Jordan, Jcool jj were 3 absolut top top players that game and all got among highest rating ever achived on ESO, AoM's zone, and I read something there that all 3 of them were friends and playing on same cyber.

I think its naturally atleast for Taiwan, 90% of them live in Taipei so they meet same place to play, same with Seol, Starcraft was the biggest game, but age of empires players found one cyber were they hang out.

I remember also some of the top brazilians from AoM were playing on cyber cafes, but Taiwan/Korea was earlier with it and adapted the culture faster then other places in the world.

Edit: updated with link to other post of KKab were he says more nicks of players

 

[Cuth]

Cyber cafes are the weirdest thing

 

[hoyohoyo9]

Looks like we'll need to revisit this 11

 

[Freezing_Point]

We certainly have something to add to DauT's list of best tournament achievements.

 

[SouFire]

We certainly have something to add to DauT's list of best tournament achievements.

The best and most legendary tournament that daut won and was trained by kkab, was the Master of the huns, somehow it doesn't appear on his profile, clash of titans he was third...

 

[IvIaximus]

Back in the day what I recall about Daut, his style was very effective vs rushers (assume we mean feudal) was because Daut had a seriously good understanding of map. Present and future issues. And I mean the whole map, not just his. He also didn’t make many mistakes vs rushers, and some rushers made mistakes which Daut took advantage of. Daut was very patient that way and didn’t panic, overreacting to the rush. Then yes, macro and way he managed economy if game hit castle come into play much more. That’s all I recall since I haven’t watched those games from Daut since I was around 1600 that time. Would have to revisit, just working from memory.

Excellent summary of Daut style, at least back then. (Not following aoc scene last few years) I remember when I joined wW clan, here_Iam_ and me had some good love/hate relationship since he taught me how to play. During our lessons (which were basically duels where he beat the **** out of me) we sometimes analyzed recs of other players. Or rather, one player. It was Daut. I remember Funito vs Daut games were exactly how you describe them. To add to what you said, Daut had very distinct way of walling map, kinda minimalistic yet it brought a lot of safety. One could learn a lot by watching his games. And back then without streams and many tournaments, each rec was like little treat to players.

@ ages old debate "old vs new pros". I think, as I always did, that it does not matter that playstale is more "advanced" or "nuanced" (call it whatever you want) now than it was before. If you wanted to be top player before, you needed exactly same qualities that you need now. (hard to specify which qualities tho) Meta has evolved but top player is top player never the less. It kinda reminds me people discussing if contemporary people are more intelligent than people in the past. They think that because 5 year old can use smartphone. From my knowledge, I would say that level of ingenuity/intelligence of ancient people is on par with contemporaries. I basically see no difference. (well sometimes I think of us being actually inferior lulz)

 

[Rayne]

Excellent summary of Daut style, at least back then. (Not following aoc scene last few years) I remember when I joined wW clan, here_Iam_ and me had some good love/hate relationship since he taught me how to play. During our lessons (which were basically duels where he beat the **** out of me) we sometimes analyzed recs of other players. Or rather, one player. It was Daut. I remember Funito vs Daut games were exactly how you describe them. To add to what you said, Daut had very distinct way of walling map, kinda minimalistic yet it brought a lot of safety. One could learn a lot by watching his games. And back then without streams and many tournaments, each rec was like little treat to players.

@ ages old debate "old vs new pros". I think, as I always did, that it does not matter that playstale is more "advanced" or "nuanced" (call it whatever you want) now than it was before. If you wanted to be top player before, you needed exactly same qualities that you need now. (hard to specify which qualities tho) Meta has evolved but top player is top player never the less. It kinda reminds me people discussing if contemporary people are more intelligent than people in the past. They think that because 5 year old can use smartphone. From my knowledge, I would say that level of ingenuity/intelligence of ancient people is on par with contemporaries. I basically see no difference. (well sometimes I think of us being actually inferior lulz)

Think I know exactly some of those Funito vs Daut games you're referring to. Those were some very enjoyable Hun wars.

Personally, I agree that you need same qualities, not any different than before. Maybe some new things, sure. But like good macro, economy, and understanding map well. You don't have those 3 down good enough, you won't become even remotely strong. Micro was less important in the past imo, but nowadays I think it must be sharper. Otherwise same things like understanding weaknesses, having a style to suit your strengths, focusing/being really aware of critical situations in game and acting appropriately to them, and like being aware of mistakes etc. Being flexible too. Every player who was remotely strong was aware of those things even in early 2000s from what I saw. That won't ever change. That's why Koven was able to become 2250 in like 2014 or 2015, and Chris these days is seems quite strong. Jordan I saw made an incredible rise recently too. Wasn't really surprising to me imo, just waiting for it to happen as long as they had time.

I have sometimes wondered about people in general these days being more intelligent than maybe few decades ago. I'm pretty much with you that there's no real difference. I'd say mostly just more knowledgeable and knowing the application of that. It's not like others didn't have that ability either. 5 year olds using things like ipads or phones well I suppose is impressive to like parents at a face value. Imo, that's mostly since those parents are older and have been worn out from life. Think they have less patience to learn stuff like that (I know my patience to learn some things that don't really matter has gone down). I'd be more interested in seeing how those kids progress through life, since life has a way of grinding one down. I've either personally seen or heard of some very intelligent people kind of lose that edge through time.

 

[Minh_aoc]

The game has evolved a lot, so the criteria to rank players will never be accurate and specially most players will never agree with it since they will have their preferences according to their best times with the game.

Viper changed the game, a pro player before viper was good at micro or macro, after viper to be in the fight you had to be good at both, only jordan managed to follow him in that revolutionary year.

From 2016 thanks to lierey the game went even further a top player and contender would have to be a micro maniac in order to compete with the snake, viper quickly adapted to the insane micro and gave us as result the best micro intense fights were ballistics is ignored and counter units, fast response and the fastest reaction ever seen.

Only mbl, hera and tatoh have adapted to that heavy game play, while mr yo unable to compete in such micro intense scenarios has polished the rush strats to put their enemy outside their field having a solid macro game play.

So having that in mind mbl or tatoh are miles away of any older legend, basically any new top player is faster and stronger than the old experts could ever be, if you study a rec from 2004 from the very best of that year, you only see big exchanges of army, not micro well not even patrolling, tons of iddles, poor macro with the exception of daut, so if it was up to me any old player before 2005 should be ranked in a honorable list, since the skills were not even remotely close to what we have now.

The game has evolved a lot, so the criteria to rank players will never be accurate and specially most players will never agree with it since they will have their preferences according to their best times with the game.

Viper changed the game, a pro player before viper was good at micro or macro, after viper to be in the fight you had to be good at both, only jordan managed to follow him in that revolutionary year.

From 2016 thanks to lierey the game went even further a top player and contender would have to be a micro maniac in order to compete with the snake, viper quickly adapted to the insane micro and gave us as result the best micro intense fights were ballistics is ignored and counter units, fast response and the fastest reaction ever seen.

Only mbl, hera and tatoh have adapted to that heavy game play, while mr yo unable to compete in such micro intense scenarios has polished the rush strats to put their enemy outside their field having a solid macro game play.

So having that in mind mbl or tatoh are miles away of any older legend, basically any new top player is faster and stronger than the old experts could ever be, if you study a rec from 2004 from the very best of that year, you only see big exchanges of army, not micro well not even patrolling, tons of iddles, poor macro with the exception of daut, so if it was up to me any old player before 2005 should be ranked in a honorable list, since the skills were not even remotely close to what we have now.

"basically any new top player is faster and stronger than the old experts could ever be" Look at Chris channel and see how fast he is.

https://youtube.com/channel/UC00u-XPUH-nNhHNU7MsxBPA

 

[pumukel]

thanks, hallogallo et al.

gg

 

[Philippe le Bon]

can't wait for the 50 greatest AoE2 noobs of all time list. hopefully it will come soon.

 

[otw_Da]

Does anyone has informations what the top players from korea doing today?

 

[Rayne]

Does anyone has informations what the top players from korea doing today?

I believe all of them are retired these days. At least from playing games professionally? For specifics:

If I recall things from this topic, somewhere someone said Koven was/is some esports commentator in Korea. Kkab, who knows about him, that guy is a mystery unless you know him imo. As for Grunt, I remember looking around about him a lot, as I had the most trouble putting him together. I’d ask that no one quotes me 100% on this anywhere, but I believe I came across something that said he was/still is an accountant. Would have to reconfirm that one, but don’t remember where I found it.

 

[amazing_knight]

Jordan should be higher on this list. Above Koven, Kkab etc.

He was the most dominant between 2010-2015 alongside Viper and continues to be a Top5 player even today.

 

[HongeyKong]

Jordan was barely top30 in 2020

 

[Rustyiesty]

I wonder how long it is before we'd see Vinchester, Villese & ACCM appear on an updated version of a list like this

 

[DJ_Argenta_]

hera was a 2.4k player before even tatoh was playing on voobly and last year he has been playing non stop, only mbl plays the same, while tatoh last year wasn't really active like the previous year, so make no mistake hera has his years playing the game and his achivements are close to mbl and tatoh who have also beaten the snake in 1x1 tournaments.

That’s wrong dude. Tatoh has been playing aoe2 for a long time. I can’t tell if KM Ator was his first nickname. But around 2008-2010 he improved very fast, reaching 2k2 from 1600-1700 in a matter of 1 year (perhaps my time perception is incorrect). After that he left playing that intense and go inactive for some years, just playing sometimes with friends in 1.0 and 1.0c on IRC; far away from the competitive scene (even inactive he remained 2k and was able to kill an active 1900 easily). He started playing again more active in 2011 and quickly his level started to boom, but still was “undercover” playing on IRC at theconquerors.es for casual -we form a casual team named IRC to play some voobly tourneys and with tatoh's help, we almost qualify for a main event after winning a set against Tim’s team but loosing against PoJ team, good memories playing at my 4AM against a Japanese team- . Then I left playing in 2012, and when I started playing again in 2018, he was a top player and became part of tyrant A team. Even though he has been talented since day 1 he played AoE, it took him a long way to reach the top elite.

 

[USC_kiky]

I think Viper's achievement should also include his dominancy in DM tournaments. No other RM players could reach that level in DM before him.

 

[SouFire]

That’s wrong dude. Tatoh has been playing aoe2 for a long time. I can’t tell if KM Ator was his first nickname. But around 2008-2010 he improved very fast, reaching 2k2 from 1600-1700 in a matter of 1 year (perhaps my time perception is incorrect). After that he left playing that intense and go inactive for some years, just playing sometimes with friends in 1.0 and 1.0c on IRC; far away from the competitive scene (even inactive he remained 2k and was able to kill an active 1900 easily). He started playing again more active in 2011 and quickly his level started to boom, but still was “undercover” playing on IRC at theconquerors.es for casual -we form a casual team named IRC to play some voobly tourneys and with tatoh's help, we almost qualify for a main event after winning a set against Tim’s team but loosing against PoJ team, good memories playing at my 4AM against a Japanese team- . Then I left playing in 2012, and when I started playing again in 2018, he was a top player and became part of tyrant A team. Even though he was been talented since day 1 he played AoE, it took him a long way to reach the top elite.

You just answered yourself, tatoh was active before sure i know that, that is why i put "before even tatoh was playing on voobly" back at those years tatoh was more active on the HD, in fact he became popular being the ultimate top 1 player on that game version while the normal experts were grinding on voobly.

So there is nothing wrong there, tatoh was a good player back then but not a 2.4k-2.5k player like hera was, the best years of tatoh were when hera wasn't active and when hera was a top voobly player tatoh wasn't active on that platform.

 

[DJ_Argenta_]

You just answered yourself, tatoh was active before sure i know that, that is why i put "before even tatoh was playing on voobly" back at those years tatoh was more active on the HD, in fact he became popular being the ultimate top 1 player on that game version while the normal experts were grinding on voobly.

So there is nothing wrong there, tatoh was a good player back then but not a 2.4k-2.5k player like hera was, the best years of tatoh were when hera wasn't active and when hera was a top voobly player tatoh wasn't active on that platform.

Mmmm, Hera become a top-10 player long time after Tatoh was already a top 15 player (at least). Tatoh use to play in voobly / IGZ since at least 13/14 years. Perhaps most of the community didn't know him, and he wasn't a top player, but he was already a 2k2, but wasn't active enough to reach his peak.

When Hera reach the top 10, Tatoh was already there, my point is that you argued Hera became first a top 10 player before even Tatoh were in the scene, but, its completely the opposite.

 

[oozkan]

Mmmm, Hera become a top-10 player long time after Tatoh was already a top 15 player (at least). Tatoh use to play in voobly / IGZ since at least 13/14 years. Perhaps most of the community didn't know him, and he wasn't a top player, but he was already a 2k2, but wasn't active enough to reach his peak.

When Hera reach the top 10, Tatoh was already there, my point is that you argued Hera became first a top 10 player before even Tatoh were in the scene, but, its completely the opposite.

Hera was not even considered top 10 during ECL or NAC2 neither Villese or Vinch. They had their breakout later. ECL finals was Hera's breakout.

Just check NAC2 squad with 8 players, add Bact and Yo there for sure, there is your top 10. And the people after 10th person was either Vivi or one of the Brazilians, miguel, riut (he wasn't really active though). Suprisingly st4rk also played very well on those qualifiers.