AOE-II Who did the strategy first?

[dataidiot]

When we are watching an arabia 1v1 game, especially in huns wars, sometimes we see some different strategies that change the fate of the game, make us love AoC even more or end up failing miserably. I think we should give the inventors of the proper credit, so I ask for your help to find the first person(or the first person we remember) who did the strats below:

Drush + scouts: After 3 militias in dark age, the player goes to feudal age(usually before 12 min mark) and makes scouts. He can follow doing a typical hun transition into archers or go for full feudal play

Defensive drush + fast feudal: Although drushing is very commom, doing a defensive drush(making 3 militias to counter enemy' drush) at the same time you are executing a fast feudal(you are not planning to go man at arms) is not standard. After you reach feudal age, the player doing this strategy should go ranges, sometimes forward ranges.

Forward stable(scouts): You are watching the recorded game and you see one of the players taking 4 vills from his town center and moving them to enemy base few seconds after he clicked feudal. Then, as an expert spectator, you start to think about how the different combo of units will affect the game. But when he reaches feudal age, he makes a stable, causing spectators a big surprise(expect if he is Tatoh) and giving them a very agressive game.

Wall + sneak: Last and, in my opinion, the least fun of unusual strategies, the player does a palisade wall at the same time he sends 1/2 villagers forward, trying to sneak them to backwards of the opponent's map. The only fun part of it is the chaos caused by 5 archers with fletching against unprotected gold.

So guys, back to the question, who did those strats first?

 

[BruTe]

You forgot Myst_Ioris 5 villager forward :D

 

[Brainless]

you got to ask the dinosaurs, this game goes back to the ancient time ( it was actually launched in the Millennium before the present one ).
It would be fun to write a full history of AOC, i have seen some good texts trying to, lets find those back

 

[Clemensor]

Grunt seemed to be quite ahead of his time doing 22 Pop scouts in 2001 tournament final.

viewtopic.php?f=178&t=23752

Not saying that he was the First to ever do it, but it really seems like an odd strategy for that time.

P.S. I think someone like Chris would be the most informative/knowledgable for this topic :D

 

[SouFire]

Proly it was the sheriff, he was paid to test any OP strat so he was the first one trying different stuff, but his skills weren't so great so even performing an ancient drush without micro he would have lost vs a pop 25 skirms old rusher.

Funebre knows it better he was growing up among aoc.

 

who invented the wheel?

 

[Brainless]

who invented the wheel?

it wasnt me

 

[_Andrew]

Would like to add a couple important ones:

The "force every 2k+ player you play vs. to play only Aztecs and immediately go for a boar steal as it's your only chance to win the game" - invented by Ra

And "schedule tournament matches at 4am for opponent while convincing them that you're actually the one playing at a scheduling disadvantage because playing at 4am is obviously ideal" - also invented by Ra

 

[GmanStreams]

Would like to add a couple important ones:

The "force every 2k+ player you play vs. to play only Aztecs and immediately go for a boar steal as it's your only chance to win the game" - invented by Ra

And "schedule tournament matches at 4am for opponent while convincing them that you're actually the one playing at a scheduling disadvantage because playing at 4am is obviously ideal" - also invented by Ra

#shotsfired, ayy le mayo Ra's a cool guy gtfo

 

[Funito]

It's imposible to know, but you can give credit to the first person to start using X strat in an effective way. Some strats become so popular thanks to some player that used to do it everygame
4 or 5 vills skirm fwd was popular thx to kmkm. He used to do it every single game when most players never used to do it and he won first WCG with it. So some people call used to call that fwd (skirm+pik+many towers, then castling and many kts) "kmkm rush"
Daut was the first top player to always go stable 25 pop even if enemy went fwd. He discovered that stoping a fwd with stable first could be even more effective than going skirms, when most of the players before him used to panic. But guys like Galusn were doing that in 2002, maybe not thaat well.
The first player i saw going fwd stable in many games was Rukie, he used to do that strat when both players went fwd. Capoch sometimes when he stoled boars used to go fwd stable too. But hard to credit a strat that is so uneffective ha.
Grunt is one of the first i saw going 22pop stable on a game (that MS final). Then i found some more games of him doing that in 2001. But Chris used to up 22pop already in late 2012 in a constant basis, mostly for going fwd. Yanzi used to do 22-23 pop stable every single game also and won a big arabia tourney with it, and his style was more similar to nowadays standards than the players of his time. Then 22 pop stable became popular around 2005 (i think when Chris became super top player again after a 2 years break), i want to credit Canary also because he was a build orders freak and at the time he was the most active player, and with the years it became more centered in doing more farms and doing archeries a bit later. Then the no loom thing, i can't remember who started doing it first. Then luring deers become popular in 2012 and i think it was popularized by me (but i used it for going fwd), ha.

Drush + CA was made popular by a guy named Fulgore, who everybody thought he was a cheater (most probably he wasnt) because he used to stole boars in ever single game. I can't remember who started to do 3 militias first instead of 5 but it was a quick change.
First top player doing drush i think was a guy named Mozart? (can't remember exactly right now) around 2002, also Arch_Vile. I remember a guy beating kmkm in Wcg 2001 with drush (his only lose), cant remember his name. What was the name of that Swedish player that is still around? I think he used to drush at the time also.
Then Aztk drush+ fast castle was popularized by Ppoc in 2003, then improved a lot by guys like Daut.

Sneak vill+wall is a very old strat, it was already very popular in 2002 fr games. In arabia i remember guys like Storm_Fletcher already doing it in early 2003, but is more popular between chinese players.


About fwd history i can tell more:
Kmkm made popular 24-25 pop with 4-5 vills and full skirm+pik+ towers. Capoch made 24-25 pop but mixing them with archers and scouts and map control.
Chris started doing 22pop fwd with 3 vills in 2002, similar to kmkm but more precise.
IORI made popular 22pop with 4 vills in late 2004 early 2005.
I made popular drush+fwd, but the first time i saw it was in BCC 3 Finals in a Riut vs Daut game. I took the idea mostly from there and improved timing and build orders (sometimes Maxi_Arg used to say he was the creator because i used to discuss the strat with him, that was created to kill drushers that were hard to do classic fwd against)

This is the best you can find i believe. Only me and probably Chris/kkab remember so much.

 

[dataidiot]

It's imposible to know, but you can give credit to the first person to start using X strat in an effective way. Some strats become so popular thanks to some player that used to do it everygame
4 or 5 vills skirm fwd was popular thx to kmkm. He used to do it every single game when most players never used to do it and he won first WCG with it. So some people call used to call that fwd (skirm+pik+many towers, then castling and many kts) "kmkm rush"
Daut was the first top player to always go stable 25 pop even if enemy went fwd. He discovered that stoping a fwd with stable first could be even more effective than going skirms, when most of the players before him used to panic. But guys like Galusn were doing that in 2002, maybe not thaat well.
The first player i saw going fwd stable in many games was Rukie, he used to do that strat when both players went fwd. Capoch sometimes when he stoled boars used to go fwd stable too. But hard to credit a strat that is so uneffective ha.
Grunt is one of the first i saw going 22pop stable on a game (that MS final). Then i found some more games of him doing that in 2001. But Chris used to up 22pop already in late 2012 in a constant basis, mostly for going fwd. Yanzi used to do 22-23 pop stable every single game also and won a big arabia tourney with it, and his style was more similar to nowadays standards than the players of his time. Then 22 pop stable became popular around 2005 (i think when Chris became super top player again after a 2 years break), i want to credit Canary also because he was a build orders freak and at the time he was the most active player, and with the years it became more centered in doing more farms and doing archeries a bit later. Then the no loom thing, i can't remember who started doing it first. Then luring deers become popular in 2012 and i think it was popularized by me (but i used it for going fwd), ha.

Drush + CA was made popular by a guy named Fulgore, who everybody thought he was a cheater (most probably he wasnt) because he used to stole boars in ever single game. I can't remember who started to do 3 militias first instead of 5 but it was a quick change.
First top player doing drush i think was a guy named Mozart? (can't remember exactly right now) around 2002, also Arch_Vile. I remember a guy beating kmkm in Wcg 2001 with drush (his only lose), cant remember his name. What was the name of that Swedish player that is still around? I think he used to drush at the time also.
Then Aztk drush+ fast castle was popularized by Ppoc in 2003, then improved a lot by guys like Daut.

Sneak vill+wall is a very old strat, it was already very popular in 2002 fr games. In arabia i remember guys like Storm_Fletcher already doing it in early 2003, but is more popular between chinese players.


About fwd history i can tell more:
Kmkm made popular 24-25 pop with 4-5 vills and full skirm+pik+ towers. Capoch made 24-25 pop but mixing them with archers and scouts and map control.
Chris started doing 22pop fwd with 3 vills in 2002, similar to kmkm but more precise.
IORI made popular 22pop with 4 vills in late 2004 early 2005.
I made popular drush+fwd, but the first time i saw it was in BCC 3 Finals in a Riut vs Daut game. I took the idea mostly from there and improved timing and build orders (sometimes Maxi_Arg used to say he was the creator because i used to discuss the strat with him, that was created to kill drushers that were hard to do classic fwd against)

This is the best you can find i believe. Only me and probably Chris/kkab remember so much.

Damm man, thanks so much for the answer, I really enjoy to read about AoC history.

 

It's imposible to know, but you can give credit to the first person to start using X strat in an effective way. Some strats become so popular thanks to some player that used to do it everygame

+1, I'd say that is the most effective way to handle this topic.

• I have recs from Mozart doing the crazy fwd barracks strat with mayans in 2001-02, so normal drush was probably popular before that. (iirc, some guys were doing a "bad" drush in AoK days)
  
  
• I looked through my saved notes and the guy kmkm lost to in WCG 2001 was Randy_US and kmkm lost because of a boar steal/losing scout mostly.
  
  
• I was going to say Ruso for forward stable (his 200 pop scouts game 11) but Rukie makes more sense.
  
  
• Not sure if it's true or not, but it was posted on BsK's site about a chinese guy called AK-47 inventing the mongol M@a rush - which is named after him. (2002)
  
  
• The first mayan klew rec I have is from dec 2001 by Ave_TiM. (not saying he's the first, but it was probably before that time)

This is the best you can find i believe. Only me and probably Chris/kkab remember so much.

Too bad kkab/chris can't discuss AoC history nicely 11. The last time they discussed during WCL7 it was 22 pages of arguing :/ (I assumed this topic would end the same :lol: )

 

[Millo]

First one to effectivly go for steal boar+drush into fc "strat" was Protagoras, 2.1k spaniard player, prolly the biggest change into the meta game of the last 6 years.

 

[_Ra_]

mozart and ppoc made drush popular. Their drush was aggressive with many miltias, resource walling and so on. The barracks went up before the mill.

I think b1ade and I were the first to make a playstyle out of the modern drush, harassing with militia to grab small economic advantage or to buy some time for other strategies. Also I remember we would practice and discuss with drixnak. I liked the rush fc xbow which is one of the most common strategies now. Matt did drushes into skirms/archers in feudal, or into pikes/mangonels into castle. Of course Celts was the civ of choice but we experimented with all the others. Matts play style was one of the most entertaining ever, in an age where all players played Huns - and ofcourse the Huns players were so boring and repetitive, they changed 1 little thing in the build order and thought they invented the wheel (sorry funito 11)

I remember being one of the first players to micro xbows extensively in 2005 or so -- hit and run which is the most basic micro now. Back then people told me I overmicro and I'll never become a top player because of it 11.

BTW fulgore did not invent drush + fc.I mean we were doing this 5 years before that in zone11. It wasn't popular with Huns till later. But Everyone in rated was doing it with Huns around that time not just him. I remember because I was very active(maybe funito only watching recs at that time ?) . But I have to mention him and ertug were the only ones stealing boars so successfully with huns though. Skipping finding their original resources to steal. They also shared all their accounts (and shared a similar fishy playstyle)


Ruso, emarm and the Spanish players deserve a lot of credit for making fishing boats popular. Believe it or not many players would make little or no fb even in maps like Baltic or continental. Spanish guys made a play style out of 20+ fb and no farms.

Also ak47 was the original m@a and archers and towers. And this came 5+ years before funito started doing it, very soon after the game release. Only with different civ that's all (Mongols being the most popular). I remember watching his records and adopting it. This is how I first hit the 1700s.

Huns players think the game revolved around them, remember that!!

 

[_Ra_]

Btw I didn't make loom in arena and islands and occasionally in arabia even back in zone times. I didn't invent this for sure 11, I just learned from someone . Again sometimes when a strategy becomes popular or people stumble on it for the first time they think that's when it got invented.

Another thing I remember is playing terror on arena back in zone and he would do turk fast imp every game. He had just moved from 1vs1 michi. I picked aztecs vs him and monk rushed him many games in a row and won - perfect counter. I learned it from another 2k Canadian player... forgot the name now. Terror took the strategy from me or another player who did it to him (who knows) . People attribute it to terror because it was his 1 trick strategy for so long, but it existed 3+ years before he played arena

 

Another thing I remember is playing terror on arena back in zone and he would do turk fast imp every game. He had just moved from 1vs1 michi.

interesting, thanks for sharing. so when terror was a nub he played 1v1 michi. what about you or other expert players? apparently jordan used to play europe in his nooby days :lol:

i really look forward to chris' answer on this topic.

 

[dataidiot]

In AoC, was there a period where the most popular civ was not huns/may/azt/mongols?

 

Those civs were the most popular overall throughout AoC I'd say. Chinese were decent in 1.0, but in 1.0c the -50f gg'd them in 1v1 kinda.

Iirc, Goths were even briefly popular at the start of AoC because of the buff from AoK. Which I was meaning to ask, who was doing 2 barracks M@a? (I'm quite certain I have a rec of kkab/old expert doing it in 2000, but can't find it atm)
Goths were even part of the earlier WCL days for a bit.

There was a guy in WCG 2000 who only picked japs. Imp Fox is most famous for his Byz usage.

Any of the "tier 2" civs in AoC had players playing them back in those days.

 

[FeAge]

I think the fc + fireships was first made by gary paiton, one of the first few top players back then, he later got a sponsorship by microsoft and moved to age of mythology. Nowadays he is a pro poker player or smth like that.

 

[Joop]

Pyc_Hawk said that he invented trush.

 

I don't think any particular player invented the very notion of a drush, trush, etc. (this would be like claiming to be the inventor of the wheel). It is more sensible to talk about build orders, or less obvious strategies (turk fast imp, etc.)

 

[Brainless]

trush was already a popular strategy in AOE1 Rise of Rome expansion, especially being Romans.
Its such an obvious thing to do.

 

[Clemensor]

if some of you guys still have the recs of some of the mentioned stuff, I would really appreciate it ops:

 

[IvIaximus]

Ralber invented farm road to opponents TC

 

[GTL_Chris]

I haven't thought about it too much, but I will let my daydreaming muse on the earlier days and maybe post an update.

In AoK the main strategy was the fast castle. There were a lot of strategies built around that. One example was the Methos+Crexis "Ram Express" where one guy would mass castle army while the other would build rams and they would double one player to take him out in early-ish castle age. This was probably in 1999.

Somewhere in 2000 Gutter_Rat posted a "FLUSH" strategy on MFO (MrFixitOnline). This was a detailed guide on how to get to feudal quickly and build archers to kill anyone who tried to fast castle. It worked excellently and many players adopted it.

Someone also posted a "GRUSH" strategy on MFO for water maps. I can't remember who. Maybe one of the DevilZ players? DevilZ_Grolsch or DevilZ_Aardvark are ringing a bell - but they were also two excellent players at the time so maybe I just seen them perform a good grush and that is why that is in my head.

Arch_Magi had a tonne of games posted where he did what we all know now as a "TRUSH". I don't know if it was before or after the FLUSH was created. As others have pointed out, tower rushes existed in older games, but I remember watching his games at the time and his builds are still extremely close to what would be used today for an effective trush.

I believe the first time I seen a "Douche" strategy (dark age tc rush with persia) was also on MFO around 1999-2000. I'm not sure who wrote it.

Sometime after the FLUSH strategy, The_Sheriff_ did a no loom 14 minute castle monk rush and it was called "The Smush".

The_Sheriff_ was also the first person I seen to do mass skirms on arabia. He did it to me on the MFO Random Map Ladder.

For mass skirmishers, I should also point out that I played RD_ChampioN in the rated ladder after I adopted mass skirmishers from my round with The_Sheriff_, and he was doing them as well. RD_ChampioN was part of the Korean group of players and since most of them would never record rated games I don't have much information during the 2000-2001 time zone other than first hand playing against them. So, in this case, I don't know if sheriff or champ did it first - if they did it to one another - if they independently came up with it - or what.

All of what is listed above is all AoK and AoC, still Pre 1.0B. 1.0B is the patch where scouts got a buff, skirms got increased damage against spears, china got nerfed, etc.

This is a time consuming post so I'm going to head to work.

Chris