[KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

UnknownSuperskinnyBLS

Well-Known Member
Dec 30, 2016
158
263
73
23
Poland
#26
Viper had black forrest in last game which is the best thing to happen when you play as Burmese. Had it not been green arabja, Larry would have been able to use his civ's strength. It really annoys me...
 

Unknownnorue

New Member
Feb 4, 2013
26
0
1
#30
1 re is too little for bo9 and I agree its the map that did 99 percent of the work in game 9. And to be really fair he had better maps in 5 or 6 of the 9.... so next tourney more re´s or anti viper map hack would be nice :smile: jaja. Cheers to viper he really is strong but Lierey is gonna pass him... you can see it in the micro wars he has him allready, Viper hanging on cause of macro and inteligence but once lierey matures it will be hard.
 

SpainPoxo

Champion
Oct 27, 2012
2,422
668
128
Madrid, Spain
Voobly
Poxo
View profile
Ladder
RM - 1v1
Rating
1824
Wins
544
Losses
600
Streak
-2
#31
Today I had a chat with some spanish players about this games, this was my overall overview of the games:

Game 1: The two players play without risks, drush wall and straight to castle, Viper got the better civ on this one (Aztec vs Italian). Viper takes the map on castle age without much difficulty, the condos slow him on imp but they end up dying vs champs. No real surprises here, kind of civ win + stealing 4 sheeps. 1-0
Game 2: Viper got a defensive civ (celts) vs a fast and agressive one (magyars), drush and switch to [email protected] and a couple of spears forces liereyy to play defensive + 5 vills lost. The excelent play of the skirms by liereyy forces Viper to place a tower and displaces the location of the fight to Viper's base, the switch to +2/+2 kts equals the number of vills, also taking a hill on viper's face with siege on it. They both have the same amount of army but liereyy's is mostly kts, however Viper with a top movement traps liereyy's army and kills most of it, taking the second game in the moment. 2-0
Game 3: Franks against Maya, IMO a must win for maya (Top5 civ vs an army that can only produce 1 type of units) Liereyy is the aggresive player on this one, [email protected]+fwd is enough to take a hill on viper's front and main gold, the vill advantage was also for lierrey who gets castle 1st. However Lierey does a missplay or viper a perfect manouver, Lierrey enters Viper's base with 16 eagles while Viper only got 5 kts to defend, this was supossed to work out perfectly but ends up spliting his army and loosing all of them in exchange of only 1 knight. However Liereyy is stil overall leading with a better eco and control of the map, both hurry to imp, predicting a treb fight for Viper's main gold+hill. It all feels like it should be Liereyy's game, he is 20 vills ahead with 2 castles on the hill vs 1 from viper downhill. Viper splits his army to attack liereyy's eco, which results devastating, not making it equal count of vills but making it 15 more for Viper. In the mean time they both lose one castle but Liereyy also loses most of his army and his trebs, at this situation Liereyy drops the gg, all is going wrong for him so far, loosing this match up should be a big hit for the moral. 3-0
Game 4: Inca vs Mongols, Viper goes for drush against a mongol (not very recomended), however he waits till feudal when he sends his militias with a couple of spears and 4 vills. If he had upgraded to [email protected] or some armor it would make total sense but he didn't, the fwd is repeled by scouts+vills+skrms. Feudal age is rather pacific and it all goes to castle age were Liereyy's one tc style combined with his CA micro gets his first victory as soon as Viper is left without wood. (I guess Viper decided to pay fwd because he didn't have any decent wood and he was Incas) 3-1
Game 5: Britons vs Chinese, Viper plays by the book and does a drush+wall+fc like those we have been watching the last 4/5 years, 17:05 to castle full wall, double range, xbow, bodkin (+2->+3). Usually most of us have experienced similar situations and the game ends in a couple of minutes when we lose all our army to 10 xbow, however Lierey is back with his amazing skirm micro. However Liereyy reaches castle age 8 minutes later, also he doesn't realise (or doesn't react) and loses 5 vills to 3 xbows. The game is rather decided allready with a huge vill lead by viper, it all comes to a combination of mango+skrms vs mango+xbows and some random kts. As soon as Viper adds some skrms the eco difference + faster cration is cleary feel as Liereyy starts to lose battles. It ends when Lierrey's castle on the middle gets denied. 4-1, Viper now has up to 4 games to win 1.
Game 6: Vikings vs Indians, Viper does a useless drush, having both golds fwd on a hill. It turns to a skirm war but Liereyy's faster up, combined with not wasting resources on militians and viper getting housed on the first fight makes him take the lead. Viper is behind in the skrm war, being forced to add some vills and a 3rd range, the results is 7 vills behind overall. Liereyy's adds some scouts and kills most of viper's army. Liereyy's skrm micro surprises us again, fighthing uphill on even numbers resulting on even kills. Viper says gg when liereyy steps on his gold after reaching castle with a long minute of difference. 4-2
Game 7: Berbers vs bizantines, berbers are a civilization that gets better with time and patience, leaving those farmers work, getting a castle and producing the stupidly OP camel archers. (Why is a camel archer better against everything than the CA?, they should be like camels to kts...) Viper kills Liereyy's scout on dark age, leaving him blind, he could have played defensively, place a couple of towers and wait for the castle, however he decides to go fwd with militias against a bizantine. (A decision I didn't like, bizantines got free town watch and their towers are stronger and is most likely to combine skrms+spears so he is coming slow. Probably viper wanted to go fwd to take both secondary golds from lierey placed on a hill and disturb his wood line) The fwd doesn't work out very well, Liereyy got a small advantage, but not enough. They get to castle and viper prepares to build a castle, Liereyy goes for the agression, camels, kts and skrms, it seems clearly that viper got less numbers and the castle should have been placed defensively, however he surprises us all placing it where he allready hast 2 towers to deny the future gold of liereyy. Viper decides to take an engage on his base, not forced at all, were it was obvious for the viewers that he would lose, not happy with this he then places a castle defensively AFTER loosing all his army, with the consequent idle time and loosing a couple of vills, chain of bad decisions IMO. In the long run Liereyy wins the game on early imp without much effort. 4-3
Game 8: Ethiopians vs huns, both play drush to skrms, liereyy's drush is a better (2 vills ahead). It turns to a skrm fight were Viper defends on a hill, they both switch to scouts and viper has added a couple of archers, in the mean time both of them set their defenses at home. The skrm+scout fight goes well for liereyy who takes the lead and tries to raid somewhere, finding just a wall of houses. Both go up to castle but Liereyy has a surprising 8 vill lead. On Castle age Liereyy does his favourite kts+ESkrms combo and Viper switches to full xbow with some kts and pikes, also both add a couple of mangos. Viper's boom is weaker (2vs3 tc's) he places his third when he geats to clean the front almost at the same time cliking to imp. Liereyy stays longer for castle, preparing a massive army of kts+ESkrms. Liereyy launch the 14 and everyone feels like it should be a winning blow for Liereyy, we all get confused as the kts fall down to the power of the pikemen. The final 5th win could be feel in the game, Viper just got a masive win before imping. Both of them place a castle, in the main way to their bases, Viper gets to imp and divides his army, arbalest on one side, halbs on the other, his arbs get repeled by skrms while the halbs get some kills on Liereyy's gold, meanwhile some trebs are moving. The map is for Viper, he just have to group and push straigh through the middle. Heavily outnumbered by the skrms he decides to create some onagers. (One error from Viper here, he didn't expand his eco, he was cornered in his min20 walls and he was wetting low on wood) Liereyy knows he is running out of gold so, he goes for the full trash, husar +4/+4 and skrms it is. Liereyy outmases viper army that has been rather slow on his push, 180 vs 160 pop, the comeback is here, Liereyy does his push against Viper's main army and a castle, the outcome is bad for both of them, the pop is now 160/160, but most of viper is vills, who has just catched up. Liereyy starts the raid on Viper's farm eco, who falls back with all his halb and stops the army production, decided to switch to husars (no bloodlines or +4), instead of shotel warrios/rams+arbs. Liereyy's untouch eco outmasses again Viper, who is being pushed by hussar and massed skrms and some trebs to destroy the castles, not a single ram from any of them. 4-4 it is, what we all did wish for.

Game 9: Burmese vs Malians, we all saw it, perfect map for TheViper, back gold, wood and stone with a small gap on the middle and some easy walls on the flanks. Meanwhile Liereyy's main gold is on the front, on a massive hill. Is even worse when Liereyy's drush runs straight to the enemy tc. Viper launches his [email protected] and they hit right on the spot, that fwd gold, just when Liereyy was building the ranges, 2 vills down, delaying the ranges, the gold, forcing some idle and some of the army, it's all perfect for Viper, who is using this precious time to wall himself at home. Liereyy understands the situation and realise what's happening, dark horses coming (not the mangudai) Viper ups faster to castle and takes his chances, instead of rushing a castle he builds 2 tc's and a workshop, no risks on the last game. Viper moves fwd as soon as he is prepared, monks, arambai and 4 mangonels. On the field there is Liereyy's army, 30+ xbow, 3 mangos and a couple of kts, the worse is yet to come, the mangonel fights results on a 3-1 for Viper. Not much to tell on castle age, Viper is sitting confortable with a big eco lead, 2 castles and some walls protect his eco, his army wanders around, just to annoy liereyy, he doesn't even bother to kill vills, detroys a couple of buildings and waits for imp. They both hit imp ona similar time, the eco clearly favours Viper, who upgrades elite and onager. 40 5+2 range arbalest from Liereyy are in no way condition to figth vs 7 onagers, he recives the first shoot just in the middle of his formation, on this moment Liereyy leaves it be, letting all his units die and giving Viper his awaited 5th win. 5-4

The map of the last game gave Viper a huge advantage, however I think he was just waiting for it after the 4-1, just wait for the perfect map and win it like the brit vs china or aztec vs italian, with no pressure and by the book

I feel like viper played on 100% the first 5 games and then he step down quite a lot, waiting for that perfect map to win without pression, with a better wall it would have been the 8th game but I feel like he missplayed. 5 hours playing is quite a lot 11.
 

Hungarymisafeco

Known Member
Feb 17, 2012
294
185
58
27
Budapest, Hungary
Voobly
misafeco
View profile
Ladder
RM - Team Games
Rating
1673
Wins
78
Losses
59
Streak
1
#32
Game 3 was a total throw, it was painful to watch. Overall I think the civ matchups favored Liereyy, which allowed him to come back, but Viper totally deserved to win.
 

MexicoSouFire

Well Known Pikeman
Mar 11, 2011
2,597
138
78
29
Mexico
#34
Yeah poor viper his victories according to liereys fans were due map luck, he totally outplayed larry in last game, larry upgraded arbalest!!! yeah malian arbalest lol which was a poor decision, malian could have gone heavy camel+huskpikeman and few onagers, but well vipers econ advantage was so big to actually counter it.

Game 8 viper had a terrible map he had no flat space to place town centers on his resources which leaded it into a big vill difference, also a bad decision to split halbs and arbalest vs massed hussars, vipa could have won that game with full halbs at early imp but suddenly he stopped their production.

Games were good, with viper is always the same you will never know if he was making it more interesting or if the games went really close, same story vs jordan.
 

Unknownspen27

New Member
Nov 28, 2017
4
0
0
#35
1 re is too little for bo9 and I agree its the map that did 99 percent of the work in game 9. And to be really fair he had better maps in 5 or 6 of the 9.... so next tourney more re´s or anti viper map hack would be nice :smile: jaja. Cheers to viper he really is strong but Lierey is gonna pass him... you can see it in the micro wars he has him allready, Viper hanging on cause of macro and inteligence but once lierey matures it will be hard.
Interesting to assume that Lierrey will (1) gain the intelligence/strategic intuition of Viper, (2) will increase his macro ability without sacrificing his micro ability, (3) will have the patience to play on other maps to become a stronger all around player.

Don't get me wrong, Lierrey is an amazing player with (slightly) better micro than Viper on Arabia, but his macro and decision making was worse. I think if Viper had eaten/taken a break after G5 he probably would've won G7 or G8 - and Arabia is not his strongest map, while Arabia is Lierrey's strongest map by far.

Will be interesting to see, but I think it's hard not to give credit to Viper for just how good he is.
 

Unknown_Andrew

Longswordman
Jan 2, 2013
2,169
513
113
29
#36
1 re is too little for bo9 and I agree its the map that did 99 percent of the work in game 9. And to be really fair he had better maps in 5 or 6 of the 9.... so next tourney more re´s or anti viper map hack would be nice :smile: jaja. Cheers to viper he really is strong but Lierey is gonna pass him... you can see it in the micro wars he has him allready, Viper hanging on cause of macro and inteligence but once lierey matures it will be hard.
Interesting to assume that Lierrey will (1) gain the intelligence/strategic intuition of Viper, (2) will increase his macro ability without sacrificing his micro ability, (3) will have the patience to play on other maps to become a stronger all around player.

Don't get me wrong, Lierrey is an amazing player with (slightly) better micro than Viper on Arabia, but his macro and decision making was worse. I think if Viper had eaten/taken a break after G5 he probably would've won G7 or G8 - and Arabia is not his strongest map, while Arabia is Lierrey's strongest map by far.

Will be interesting to see, but I think it's hard not to give credit to Viper for just how good he is.
I think Viper gets plenty of credit for how good he is. He's been the best player (or top 2 along with Jordan) for the last 4-5 years+ now. Nothing wrong with people getting excited about the prospect of another player matching or perhaps even surpassing him. I think it's great for the competitive AoC scene that he seems to finally have a legitimate rival.
 

Unknownhumtop

New Member
Jan 18, 2013
7
0
1
#37
Today I had a chat with some spanish players about this games, this was my overall overview of the games:

Game 1: The two players play without risks, drush wall and straight to castle, Viper got the better civ on this one (Aztec vs Italian). Viper takes the map on castle age without much difficulty, the condos slow him on imp but they end up dying vs champs. No real surprises here, kind of civ win + stealing 4 sheeps. 1-0
Game 2: Viper got a defensive civ (celts) vs a fast and agressive one (magyars), drush and switch to [email protected] and a couple of spears forces liereyy to play defensive + 5 vills lost. The excelent play of the skirms by liereyy forces Viper to place a tower and displaces the location of the fight to Viper's base, the switch to +2/+2 kts equals the number of vills, also taking a hill on viper's face with siege on it. They both have the same amount of army but liereyy's is mostly kts, however Viper with a top movement traps liereyy's army and kills most of it, taking the second game in the moment. 2-0
Game 3: Franks against Maya, IMO a must win for maya (Top5 civ vs an army that can only produce 1 type of units) Liereyy is the aggresive player on this one, [email protected]+fwd is enough to take a hill on viper's front and main gold, the vill advantage was also for lierrey who gets castle 1st. However Lierey does a missplay or viper a perfect manouver, Lierrey enters Viper's base with 16 eagles while Viper only got 5 kts to defend, this was supossed to work out perfectly but ends up spliting his army and loosing all of them in exchange of only 1 knight. However Liereyy is stil overall leading with a better eco and control of the map, both hurry to imp, predicting a treb fight for Viper's main gold+hill. It all feels like it should be Liereyy's game, he is 20 vills ahead with 2 castles on the hill vs 1 from viper downhill. Viper splits his army to attack liereyy's eco, which results devastating, not making it equal count of vills but making it 15 more for Viper. In the mean time they both lose one castle but Liereyy also loses most of his army and his trebs, at this situation Liereyy drops the gg, all is going wrong for him so far, loosing this match up should be a big hit for the moral. 3-0
Game 4: Inca vs Mongols, Viper goes for drush against a mongol (not very recomended), however he waits till feudal when he sends his militias with a couple of spears and 4 vills. If he had upgraded to [email protected] or some armor it would make total sense but he didn't, the fwd is repeled by scouts+vills+skrms. Feudal age is rather pacific and it all goes to castle age were Liereyy's one tc style combined with his CA micro gets his first victory as soon as Viper is left without wood. (I guess Viper decided to pay fwd because he didn't have any decent wood and he was Incas) 3-1
Game 5: Britons vs Chinese, Viper plays by the book and does a drush+wall+fc like those we have been watching the last 4/5 years, 17:05 to castle full wall, double range, xbow, bodkin (+2->+3). Usually most of us have experienced similar situations and the game ends in a couple of minutes when we lose all our army to 10 xbow, however Lierey is back with his amazing skirm micro. However Liereyy reaches castle age 8 minutes later, also he doesn't realise (or doesn't react) and loses 5 vills to 3 xbows. The game is rather decided allready with a huge vill lead by viper, it all comes to a combination of mango+skrms vs mango+xbows and some random kts. As soon as Viper adds some skrms the eco difference + faster cration is cleary feel as Liereyy starts to lose battles. It ends when Lierrey's castle on the middle gets denied. 4-1, Viper now has up to 4 games to win 1.
Game 6: Vikings vs Indians, Viper does a useless drush, having both golds fwd on a hill. It turns to a skirm war but Liereyy's faster up, combined with not wasting resources on militians and viper getting housed on the first fight makes him take the lead. Viper is behind in the skrm war, being forced to add some vills and a 3rd range, the results is 7 vills behind overall. Liereyy's adds some scouts and kills most of viper's army. Liereyy's skrm micro surprises us again, fighthing uphill on even numbers resulting on even kills. Viper says gg when liereyy steps on his gold after reaching castle with a long minute of difference. 4-2
Game 7: Berbers vs bizantines, berbers are a civilization that gets better with time and patience, leaving those farmers work, getting a castle and producing the stupidly OP camel archers. (Why is a camel archer better against everything than the CA?, they should be like camels to kts...) Viper kills Liereyy's scout on dark age, leaving him blind, he could have played defensively, place a couple of towers and wait for the castle, however he decides to go fwd with militias against a bizantine. (A decision I didn't like, bizantines got free town watch and their towers are stronger and is most likely to combine skrms+spears so he is coming slow. Probably viper wanted to go fwd to take both secondary golds from lierey placed on a hill and disturb his wood line) The fwd doesn't work out very well, Liereyy got a small advantage, but not enough. They get to castle and viper prepares to build a castle, Liereyy goes for the agression, camels, kts and skrms, it seems clearly that viper got less numbers and the castle should have been placed defensively, however he surprises us all placing it where he allready hast 2 towers to deny the future gold of liereyy. Viper decides to take an engage on his base, not forced at all, were it was obvious for the viewers that he would lose, not happy with this he then places a castle defensively AFTER loosing all his army, with the consequent idle time and loosing a couple of vills, chain of bad decisions IMO. In the long run Liereyy wins the game on early imp without much effort. 4-3
Game 8: Ethiopians vs huns, both play drush to skrms, liereyy's drush is a better (2 vills ahead). It turns to a skrm fight were Viper defends on a hill, they both switch to scouts and viper has added a couple of archers, in the mean time both of them set their defenses at home. The skrm+scout fight goes well for liereyy who takes the lead and tries to raid somewhere, finding just a wall of houses. Both go up to castle but Liereyy has a surprising 8 vill lead. On Castle age Liereyy does his favourite kts+ESkrms combo and Viper switches to full xbow with some kts and pikes, also both add a couple of mangos. Viper's boom is weaker (2vs3 tc's) he places his third when he geats to clean the front almost at the same time cliking to imp. Liereyy stays longer for castle, preparing a massive army of kts+ESkrms. Liereyy launch the 14 and everyone feels like it should be a winning blow for Liereyy, we all get confused as the kts fall down to the power of the pikemen. The final 5th win could be feel in the game, Viper just got a masive win before imping. Both of them place a castle, in the main way to their bases, Viper gets to imp and divides his army, arbalest on one side, halbs on the other, his arbs get repeled by skrms while the halbs get some kills on Liereyy's gold, meanwhile some trebs are moving. The map is for Viper, he just have to group and push straigh through the middle. Heavily outnumbered by the skrms he decides to create some onagers. (One error from Viper here, he didn't expand his eco, he was cornered in his min20 walls and he was wetting low on wood) Liereyy knows he is running out of gold so, he goes for the full trash, husar +4/+4 and skrms it is. Liereyy outmases viper army that has been rather slow on his push, 180 vs 160 pop, the comeback is here, Liereyy does his push against Viper's main army and a castle, the outcome is bad for both of them, the pop is now 160/160, but most of viper is vills, who has just catched up. Liereyy starts the raid on Viper's farm eco, who falls back with all his halb and stops the army production, decided to switch to husars (no bloodlines or +4), instead of shotel warrios/rams+arbs. Liereyy's untouch eco outmasses again Viper, who is being pushed by hussar and massed skrms and some trebs to destroy the castles, not a single ram from any of them. 4-4 it is, what we all did wish for.

Game 9: Burmese vs Malians, we all saw it, perfect map for TheViper, back gold, wood and stone with a small gap on the middle and some easy walls on the flanks. Meanwhile Liereyy's main gold is on the front, on a massive hill. Is even worse when Liereyy's drush runs straight to the enemy tc. Viper launches his [email protected] and they hit right on the spot, that fwd gold, just when Liereyy was building the ranges, 2 vills down, delaying the ranges, the gold, forcing some idle and some of the army, it's all perfect for Viper, who is using this precious time to wall himself at home. Liereyy understands the situation and realise what's happening, dark horses coming (not the mangudai) Viper ups faster to castle and takes his chances, instead of rushing a castle he builds 2 tc's and a workshop, no risks on the last game. Viper moves fwd as soon as he is prepared, monks, arambai and 4 mangonels. On the field there is Liereyy's army, 30+ xbow, 3 mangos and a couple of kts, the worse is yet to come, the mangonel fights results on a 3-1 for Viper. Not much to tell on castle age, Viper is sitting confortable with a big eco lead, 2 castles and some walls protect his eco, his army wanders around, just to annoy liereyy, he doesn't even bother to kill vills, detroys a couple of buildings and waits for imp. They both hit imp ona similar time, the eco clearly favours Viper, who upgrades elite and onager. 40 5+2 range arbalest from Liereyy are in no way condition to figth vs 7 onagers, he recives the first shoot just in the middle of his formation, on this moment Liereyy leaves it be, letting all his units die and giving Viper his awaited 5th win. 5-4

The map of the last game gave Viper a huge advantage, however I think he was just waiting for it after the 4-1, just wait for the perfect map and win it like the brit vs china or aztec vs italian, with no pressure and by the book

I feel like viper played on 100% the first 5 games and then he step down quite a lot, waiting for that perfect map to win without pression, with a better wall it would have been the 8th game but I feel like he missplayed. 5 hours playing is quite a lot 11.
I decided to print your comments and watch the records again
 

Unknownspen27

New Member
Nov 28, 2017
4
0
0
#38
1 re is too little for bo9 and I agree its the map that did 99 percent of the work in game 9. And to be really fair he had better maps in 5 or 6 of the 9.... so next tourney more re´s or anti viper map hack would be nice :smile: jaja. Cheers to viper he really is strong but Lierey is gonna pass him... you can see it in the micro wars he has him allready, Viper hanging on cause of macro and inteligence but once lierey matures it will be hard.
Interesting to assume that Lierrey will (1) gain the intelligence/strategic intuition of Viper, (2) will increase his macro ability without sacrificing his micro ability, (3) will have the patience to play on other maps to become a stronger all around player.

Don't get me wrong, Lierrey is an amazing player with (slightly) better micro than Viper on Arabia, but his macro and decision making was worse. I think if Viper had eaten/taken a break after G5 he probably would've won G7 or G8 - and Arabia is not his strongest map, while Arabia is Lierrey's strongest map by far.

Will be interesting to see, but I think it's hard not to give credit to Viper for just how good he is.
I think Viper gets plenty of credit for how good he is. He's been the best player (or top 2 along with Jordan) for the last 4-5 years+ now. Nothing wrong with people getting excited about the prospect of another player matching or perhaps even surpassing him. I think it's great for the competitive AoC scene that he seems to finally have a legitimate rival.
I totally agree with you!

My point is more that it annoys me when people say things like "oh, x will surpass y soon" because it assumes the other player will not also improve. Or for instance, "Lierrery's micro is better, he just needs to improve his macro." Well... maybe his micro is better because he focuses less on macro?
 

LatviaklavskisLV

Known Member
Aug 1, 2016
259
237
48
21
#40
You can't really say that Nicovs comment isn't addressing a big issue when it comes down to competitive aoe2, sure, on normal rated games who cares right? But if it was some 50k or even 100k games and SURE, say it "It's part of the game", but imagine if a game gets decided by map, and at 2k5 2k6 level it does happen, and there is not much you can do about it, i think the only reason it's considered to be "fine" by mostly everyone is because aoe2 is not a big game where money gets out of hand and basically is "do or die" when it comes to winning, and i guess in a way that is understandable, but it really doesn't make it as an excuse to put RNG aspects in a competitive RTS game on the biggest level.
 

GermanyMichaerbse

Active Member
Oct 14, 2017
97
235
38
28
#41
You can't really say that Nicovs comment isn't addressing a big issue when it comes down to competitive aoe2, sure, on normal rated games who cares right? But if it was some 50k or even 100k games and SURE, say it "It's part of the game", but imagine if a game gets decided by map, and at 2k5 2k6 level it does happen, and there is not much you can do about it, i think the only reason it's considered to be "fine" by mostly everyone is because aoe2 is not a big game where money gets out of hand and basically is "do or die" when it comes to winning, and i guess in a way that is understandable, but it really doesn't make it as an excuse to put RNG aspects in a competitive RTS game on the biggest level.
...which is why it's a BO9 series.

Also, I haven't seen a tournament game that was ONLY decided by the map generation and the last game certainly was not such a game either.

There are way more soccer matches (playing for multiple million dollars) that are decisively influenced by wrong referee decisions than whole AoE2 series decisively influenced by map generation
 

NetherlandsDirkjan

Known Member
Oct 19, 2014
215
208
58
Voobly
Dirkjan
View profile
Ladder
RM - 1v1
Rating
1626
Wins
46
Losses
41
Streak
1
#42
Such a pity that the last game was 99% decided by the map generation. I don't understand this "only one restart a bo9" rule applied in the last tournaments. I feel bad for Lierey.

Anyway, all the other games were amazing. Congrats to viper and very well played lierey. Also thanks to Memb and everyone who made this tournament possible.
The remark is on point but its very easily neglecting all other games that players have to play to reach the final, and the games leading to
4-4 and a deciding game
.
The last game is deciding but every other game counted equally to the score in the end. Larry didnt loose the final because of the last map; he might have possible lost game 9 cause of the bad map.

To respond to Klavs: I think a part of the randomness of random maps is removed by making series not best of 1 but best of x: a larger number will decrease the chance that one player gets all the bad maps or looses a series cause of bad maps. For perfect equality tournaments have to start working with scenario maps that are always the same. Has that ever been attempted btw? And would players take the effort to play one map 100 times to optimalize strats with the size of prizepools we have seen during the last tournaments?
 

PortugalMaSmOrRa

Knight
Bronze Supporter
Sep 24, 2012
1,417
930
138
#43
@Klavskis

Even much bigger esports such as CS:GO have a noticeable RNG component in the accuracy of the weapons. I think the main reason for that is to avoid having games where the pure mechanical skill is the only deciding factor when it comes to the outcome of a professional match.
If you give 100% accuracy to all the weapons, it doesn't matter how good your team is tactically speaking, because if the other team has better aim, there's nothing you can do. You could claim that it would be more "fair" and you'd be right, but it would also be a lot less exciting.

I think the same thing applies to AoC in these terms: if maps where to be 100% mirrored, the ability to adapt and choose the best strategy for the map at hand - which has always been one of the key aspects of AoC over other RTS games - would lose importance as your opponent could just simply imitate what you are doing and if he happens to be more skilled mechanically, he wins the game.

At the very top levels of this game of course a bad map can be extremely disadvantageous, but that's where the large Best of Series such as Bo9 and the restarts come into play. A couple of years ago we used to have 3-4 restarts per team/player per series but then it was decided that having so many restarts breaks the pace of the series and causes too many delays and so it has been reduced to 1 in most tournaments. Maybe it's time to rethink that as Nicov suggests and make it 2 restarts?
 
Apr 23, 2013
373
17
18
#44
@Klavskis

Even much bigger esports such as CS:GO have a noticeable RNG component in the accuracy of the weapons. I think the main reason for that is to avoid having games where the pure mechanical skill is the only deciding factor when it comes to the outcome of a professional match.
If you give 100% accuracy to all the weapons, it doesn't matter how good your team is tactically speaking, because if the other team has better aim, there's nothing you can do. You could claim that it would be more "fair" and you'd be right, but it would also be a lot less exciting.

I think the same thing applies to AoC in these terms: if maps where to be 100% mirrored, the ability to adapt and choose the best strategy for the map at hand - which has always been one of the key aspects of AoC over other RTS games - would lose importance as your opponent could just simply imitate what you are doing and if he happens to be more skilled mechanically, he wins the game.

At the very top levels of this game of course a bad map can be extremely disadvantageous, but that's where the large Best of Series such as Bo9 and the restarts come into play. A couple of years ago we used to have 3-4 restarts per team/player per series but then it was decided that having so many restarts breaks the pace of the series and causes too many delays and so it has been reduced to 1 in most tournaments. Maybe it's time to rethink that as Nicov suggests and make it 2 restarts?
Pretty silly example. Theoretically players can perfect the spray patterns to be 100% accurate. Obviously it's not easy, especially with moving targets and under high pressure, but it's absolutely not RNG.
You can't learn to not have a bad map on aoe
 

PortugalMaSmOrRa

Knight
Bronze Supporter
Sep 24, 2012
1,417
930
138
#45
Pretty silly example. Theoretically players can perfect the spray patterns to be 100% accurate. Obviously it's not easy, especially with moving targets and under high pressure, but it's absolutely not RNG.
You can't learn to not have a bad map on aoe
Sorry, but you do not seem to know how CS:GO works! :P
Every Legendary Eagle can control an AK or an M4 spray, it actually is quite easy if you take the time to practice it.

The spread of the bullets within a spray is RNG based. The pattern is always the same, not the bullets spread though for example. 1st bullet is also not always 100% accurate, depending on the range and weapon you're using.
There's a lot of posts of CS:GO pros complaining about too much RNG. I can you link you a couple if you're interested.
 

Netherlandsnimanoe

Knight
Bronze Supporter
Jan 15, 2014
2,188
1,540
138
23
#46
@Klavskis

Even much bigger esports such as CS:GO have a noticeable RNG component in the accuracy of the weapons. I think the main reason for that is to avoid having games where the pure mechanical skill is the only deciding factor when it comes to the outcome of a professional match.
If you give 100% accuracy to all the weapons, it doesn't matter how good your team is tactically speaking, because if the other team has better aim, there's nothing you can do. You could claim that it would be more "fair" and you'd be right, but it would also be a lot less exciting.

I think the same thing applies to AoC in these terms: if maps where to be 100% mirrored, the ability to adapt and choose the best strategy for the map at hand - which has always been one of the key aspects of AoC over other RTS games - would lose importance as your opponent could just simply imitate what you are doing and if he happens to be more skilled mechanically, he wins the game.

At the very top levels of this game of course a bad map can be extremely disadvantageous, but that's where the large Best of Series such as Bo9 and the restarts come into play. A couple of years ago we used to have 3-4 restarts per team/player per series but then it was decided that having so many restarts breaks the pace of the series and causes too many delays and so it has been reduced to 1 in most tournaments. Maybe it's time to rethink that as Nicov suggests and make it 2 restarts?
Pretty silly example. Theoretically players can perfect the spray patterns to be 100% accurate. Obviously it's not easy, especially with moving targets and under high pressure, but it's absolutely not RNG.
You can't learn to not have a bad map on aoe
there's two different things: the spray pattern and the randomness. The spray pattern is learnable, but there's also randomness: even with a perfect spray while crouched, you might not hit every shot. Just shoot your entire magazine at the wall twice and compare the results: you'll see a pattern, but there's still some inaccuracy

Anyway, I think 1 restart for a bo9 is not ideal, but 3 or 4 restarts like it used to be are too much imo, so 2 restarts in a bo9 (perhaps bo7 as well) would be perfect
 

NetherlandsiViktorius

Longswordman
May 9, 2014
984
858
108
The Netherlands
#48
You can't really say that Nicovs comment isn't addressing a big issue when it comes down to competitive aoe2, sure, on normal rated games who cares right? But if it was some 50k or even 100k games and SURE, say it "It's part of the game", but imagine if a game gets decided by map, and at 2k5 2k6 level it does happen, and there is not much you can do about it, i think the only reason it's considered to be "fine" by mostly everyone is because aoe2 is not a big game where money gets out of hand and basically is "do or die" when it comes to winning, and i guess in a way that is understandable, but it really doesn't make it as an excuse to put RNG aspects in a competitive RTS game on the biggest level.
But isn't that already (partially?) negated by the format of the tourney? Yes, a bad or good map can help decide a game, but it's a best of series, not a single match. The more important the series (first round or finals), the bigger the series is (bo3 to bo9) and thus the more the RNG (bad/good map) equals out overall.

Why people say the last map won viper the finals? it's about all games combined :roll:
Like glokken says its not about one game, one map, it's about all the games and there were games where liereyy had the better map.
 

LatviaklavskisLV

Known Member
Aug 1, 2016
259
237
48
21
#49
Such a pity that the last game was 99% decided by the map generation. I don't understand this "only one restart a bo9" rule applied in the last tournaments. I feel bad for Lierey.

Anyway, all the other games were amazing. Congrats to viper and very well played lierey. Also thanks to Memb and everyone who made this tournament possible.
The remark is on point but its very easily neglecting all other games that players have to play to reach the final, and the games leading to
4-4 and a deciding game
.
The last game is deciding but every other game counted equally to the score in the end. Larry didnt loose the final because of the last map; he might have possible lost game 9 cause of the bad map.

To respond to Klavs: I think a part of the randomness of random maps is removed by making series not best of 1 but best of x: a larger number will decrease the chance that one player gets all the bad maps or looses a series cause of bad maps. For perfect equality tournaments have to start working with scenario maps that are always the same. Has that ever been attempted btw? And would players take the effort to play one map 100 times to optimalize strats with the size of prizepools we have seen during the last tournaments?
Yeah i totally agree that the more games are played, bigger the sample so it evens out more, but what im saying is that there is a significant map advantage and the issue im addressing is "Can a top 3 player beat another top 3 player with such a disadvantage EVER?" And that is the issue we need to look at, because if it is just mechanically impossible to, then we have a problem, because ofc you can look at some 1k8 1k9 games and say, oh look that guy had op map he still lost etc. But i'm talking about a 2k5 2k6 level players and the map decision on strategy and so on.
 

Netherlandsi_no_english

Active Member
Sep 16, 2012
975
84
33
#50
The best solution would be to get rid of arabia as the standard land map. The biggest flaw of normal arabia is the wood spawn in my opinion. The differences in placement and size of wood spawn of the players is too big. On top of that comes the nasty oases that you can leave you with barely any wood.
I suggest that - just like gold and stone piles - woodlines are set for each player within a certain range of the tc. For example two decent sized and 1 small sized woodlines within range X of TC. The rest can be random as far as I am concerned. (This will still leave open the possibility of players spawning close to each other).
Other important factors that may decide map fairness are tc placement (either close or for away from the edge or corner of the map) and hills. The hills in normal arabia can be too extreme in my opinion.

What I am suggesting is actually much like Green Arabia but with less wood, normal arabia like deer spawn, more hills and more openness.

BTW: assuming this is technically possible of course.
 

Time

Your time
G M T
Your zone

Upcoming Events

NAC2 - Grand Finals
Sunday 14:00 (GMT +01:00)
TheViper vs TaToH
ECL SE Asia 1v1 MbL vs Zuppi
Tuesday 14:00 (GMT +01:00)
ECL SE Asia 1v1 MbL vs Zuppi

Age Of Empires On Twitch

There are in total 30 streamers online
Click here for details
Age of Empires II 8791 viewers
Age of Empires II 73 viewers
Age of Empires III: The Asian Dynasties 52 viewers
Age of Empires II 48 viewers
Age of Empires II 28 viewers
Top