[KotD] GF Liereyy vs TheViper

NetherlandsDirkjan

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#51
But isnt then the next step to start complaining about deer? Surely the player with deer closer to the mill or tc has an unfair advantage? And when we solve the deer the hill generation is crucial cause i have 2 stone under a hill so unwinnable map :D
Its not that I dont agree with Inoenglish but its important to realize that with decreasing randomness, a part of the excitement will dissapear.
 

LatviaklavskisLV

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#52
But isnt then the next step to start complaining about deer? Surely the player with deer closer to the mill or tc has an unfair advantage? And when we solve the deer the hill generation is crucial cause i have 2 stone under a hill so unwinnable map :D
Its not that I dont agree with Inoenglish but its important to realize that with decreasing randomness, a part of the excitement will dissapear.
Well again it comes down to- Can the player with the worse map win even 1 out of 10 games? Because it just comes down to if it really is 99% map win or is it like 70% map win, and only the highest level matters, as that determines everything under it with the skill cap and the theoretical skill cap
 

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#53
klavskisLV said:
But isnt then the next step to start complaining about deer? Surely the player with deer closer to the mill or tc has an unfair advantage? And when we solve the deer the hill generation is crucial cause i have 2 stone under a hill so unwinnable map :D
Its not that I dont agree with Inoenglish but its important to realize that with decreasing randomness, a part of the excitement will dissapear.
Well again it comes down to- Can the player with the worse map win even 1 out of 10 games? Because it just comes down to if it really is 99% map win or is it like 70% map win, and only the highest level matters, as that determines everything under it with the skill cap and the theoretical skill cap
I dont know if I understand you correctly but the fact that one player is able to win most of the big tournaments over the last years means that the better player wins you games and tournaments, and not the map.
Im just gonna spam some random thought here, but what would be cool: take a group of 2.2k+ players, and let them decide for each game in KOTD who had the better map. Then check who actually won the map :D
civwin and skill level bias are partially normalized by the number of games played.
 

NorwayMoonspring

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#54
Liereyy just made a mistake by walling his ranges (& vills building them) too late. Nothing to do with the map. Civ wins are legit wins, it's part of the game to pick the right civs. This wasnt random civs. Liereyy's biggest weakness is late game raiding. He sometimes notices it way too late. Overall I think Viper has better map awareness, Liereyy better micro (sick skirm war, didnt even know it was possible to out micro equal army so badly). I don't see Liereyy taking the number 1 spot any time soon. Maybe he is as talented as Viper (or even better) but Viper has one massive advantage. He is a pro. Liereyy is not. Liereyy has school, Liereyy might even work. AoE2 is a hobby for Liereyy. Viper has other hobbies and is a professional aoe2 player during the day.
 

Netherlandsnimanoe

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#55
klavskisLV said:
But isnt then the next step to start complaining about deer? Surely the player with deer closer to the mill or tc has an unfair advantage? And when we solve the deer the hill generation is crucial cause i have 2 stone under a hill so unwinnable map :D
Its not that I dont agree with Inoenglish but its important to realize that with decreasing randomness, a part of the excitement will dissapear.
Well again it comes down to- Can the player with the worse map win even 1 out of 10 games? Because it just comes down to if it really is 99% map win or is it like 70% map win, and only the highest level matters, as that determines everything under it with the skill cap and the theoretical skill cap
I dont know if I understand you correctly but the fact that one player is able to win most of the big tournaments over the last years means that the better player wins you games and tournaments, and not the map.
Im just gonna spam some random thought here, but what would be cool: take a group of 2.2k+ players, and let them decide for each game in KOTD who had the better map. Then check who actually won the map :D
civwin and skill level bias are partially normalized by the number of games played.
I think you're talking about different things, Klavskis is saying that there are some map generations that are close to unwinnable if the skill level is close enough, not that the map generation decides every game and every tournament.
Because as already mentioned those map wins will get balanced out by playing longer series, so the better player should still win most tournaments. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't "fix" these (close to) unwinnable map generations tho.
 

LatviaklavskisLV

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#56
klavskisLV said:
But isnt then the next step to start complaining about deer? Surely the player with deer closer to the mill or tc has an unfair advantage? And when we solve the deer the hill generation is crucial cause i have 2 stone under a hill so unwinnable map :D
Its not that I dont agree with Inoenglish but its important to realize that with decreasing randomness, a part of the excitement will dissapear.
Well again it comes down to- Can the player with the worse map win even 1 out of 10 games? Because it just comes down to if it really is 99% map win or is it like 70% map win, and only the highest level matters, as that determines everything under it with the skill cap and the theoretical skill cap
I dont know if I understand you correctly but the fact that one player is able to win most of the big tournaments over the last years means that the better player wins you games and tournaments, and not the map.
Im just gonna spam some random thought here, but what would be cool: take a group of 2.2k+ players, and let them decide for each game in KOTD who had the better map. Then check who actually won the map :D
civwin and skill level bias are partially normalized by the number of games played.
Well that does not mean that viper hasn't lost a map where map is the deciding factor, and ofc i can't really talk on this as i'm not him, but a good example was his game vs Jordan (Viper was Malay, Jordan was Maya(i think)) and Viper had the worse map possible, impossible to wall thus he just got overrun as his only option was karambits, which he did, so does that mean jordan is a better player? I don't know Does that mean viper wouldve won if he had amazing map? I don't know
But addressing these things could be important, as that is what i'm concerned about, if a lower skill player can win with a map/civ win in a high stakes tournament, that is something to look at in my opinion as we are on the subject.
 

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#57
Liereyy just made a mistake by walling his ranges (& vills building them) too late. Nothing to do with the map. Civ wins are legit wins, it's part of the game to pick the right civs. This wasnt random civs. Liereyy's biggest weakness is late game raiding. He sometimes notices it way too late. Overall I think Viper has better map awareness, Liereyy better micro (sick skirm war, didnt even know it was possible to out micro equal army so badly). I don't see Liereyy taking the number 1 spot any time soon. Maybe he is as talented as Viper (or even better) but Viper has one massive advantage. He is a pro. Liereyy is not. Liereyy has school, Liereyy might even work. AoE2 is a hobby for Liereyy. Viper has other hobbies and is a professional aoe2 player during the day.
Viper played 786 matches since Apr 7, Liereyy played 697. Not a big difference.
And considering Viper played 213 matches since Nov 1, Liereyy only 78, it's all about last month.

Also it's true that Viper is a professional, but it means he has a lot of other stuff to do, like playing campaigns, viewer matches, uploading videos, managing his channels/social media, etc. I think it's possible to reach his level if someone is talented enough and has 4-5 hours free time per day to play for years. You can say that Liereyy is not much behind based on the final. He just needs more experience and confidence.
 

Unknowntdkr

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#58
This old game (specially arabia) played so many times by expert players :D :D that now only map generation decide game result between them .
 

NetherlandsDirkjan

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#59
Can anyone turn Klavs' suggestion into a poll? Sorry Im lazy and aoczone noob :D
Something like: Would you like to see more a more standardized arabia map (less random wood and deer generation or so)
 

LatviaklavskisLV

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#60
Can anyone turn Klavs' suggestion into a poll? Sorry Im lazy and aoczone noob :D
Something like: Would you like to see more a more standardized arabia map (less random wood and deer generation or so)
Dumbest thing you can do is to make a poll like that, because viewers always will like the crazy RNG stuff, and this atm is not about the viewers, but about high stakes 1v1 tournaments and how they play out, you can never make a poll like that and actually expect ppl to say- i want more balanced maps, that shit is never going to happen, because that's just how it is, the more normal approach would be to balance out maps to like 40-60 range(no clue how to do that) and then see what happens, because ofc you don't need 50:50 maps, but 90/10 maps are also quite frustrating
 

ArgentinaNicov

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#62
This old game (specially arabia) played so many times by expert players :D :D that now only map generation decide game result between them .
No, I have always said that map generation is very deciding when the skill gap is very close. I saw it multiple times this tournament: the guy with an awful map just lost. Just remember the second game between vinchester vs viper. A total joke. And there are some other games I can't recall atm (not related to viper in case you think it's something personal :sick: ). I have also seen it in a large amount of random rate games.

@masmorra
CS GO has a very tiny luck factor, it just can't be compared. Also there are 30 rounds in a game. you won't get unlucky in all of them. Here is very simple: a single randomness was enough to put Lierey in a very bad situation. Lierey had some big unwallable map plus forward gold on a hill whereas viper had just a nearly perfect map at my eyes. His only real chance to win this game was maybe going man at arms into fwd (and it may still not win since burmese is a better civ for maa, hence viper would have won the fight anyway).
I was cocasting tatoh in spanish and when the game got started I kind of knew that lierey was going to lose that game. Predicted the maa into stonewalls right away.

I'm not taking credit from viper btw, he did some very nice damage with his own maa (while lierey wasted his drush on viper's tc). But aoc becomes very simple to play when you can sneak around and fully wall at home with ease.

Anyway, it was just a comment I felt like dropping few days ago. I was very dissapointed about that game. Also, I think there is no way to fix this randomness issue. Adding more restarts as it was some years ago is the only option I see here. But I know that that is too stressfull and boring for viewers that they'd rather just get a poor game instead of wasting few minutes of their lives due to some restarts.
 

LatviaklavskisLV

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#63
TBF looking at SY map pack we saw some nice improvements on various maps, for example: Migration doesn't have completely awful sheep on the other side of your island, and this is just one example, but something like this is already nice, also the SY arabia that made the water ponds smaller.
 

PortugalMaSmOrRa

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#64
@masmorra
CS GO has a very tiny luck factor, it just can't be compared.
I'm not so sure about that Nicov...So here's what I found after a quick google search (I didn't realize it was this bad to be honest):

  • At 750 units of distance, the AK-47 has 100 percent headshot accuracy.
  • At 800, however, its accuracy falls to 95 percent. That means you’ll miss one out of every twenty times, even if you’re playing like a total badass. As DevinDTV points out, 800 is the distance of pit to long doors on Dust2. That’s really not far at all.
  • At 1200 units, the AK-47’s headshot accuracy drops all the way down to 69 percent. For comparison’s sake, the M4 has 90 percent accuracy at that point.
  • At 1600 units, the AK-47 will only land 50 percent of headshots. That’s roughly the distance of long doors to the terrorist spawn point on Dust2.
  • At 2000 units, the AK has a 38.1 percent headshot accuracy. At that point, the M4 drops to 52 percent.
I wouldn't call that tiny! :P Imagine how frustrating it must be for a Coldzera or a Niko with near-perfect aim and crosshair placement to get f*cked by the RNG Gods 1 out of 20 times! :lol: Of course this is just 1st bullet accuracy. The fact that players will go for a spray in most duels kind of offsets these numbers. But even spraying has some built-in inaccuracy as I've stated before.

But lets admit, for the sake of discussion, that you are right and randomness in AoC plays a bigger role than in CS:GO. Then we can still claim that we tackle that issue by having restarts and larger series! I don't remember when was the last time I saw a Bo7 final in CS:GO, let alone a Bo9...In fact, a lot of the finals this year were mere Bo3!

But honestly I think your suggestion of increasing the number of restarts to at least 2 sounds like a good compromise! Maybe tournament organizers will take that into consideration. We kind of made a very drastic reduction from 3-4 restarts to just 1.
 
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#65
I don't think there's any harm in adjusting maps slightly, especially for a King of the Desert type of event where it is only one map. Making small changes to ensure that noone is completely screwed over by maps, or at least attempt to reduce the chance if possible should be nothing but good, as long as it doesn't heavily impact the characteristics of the map.

I also agree that one restart was too few for what is potentially 9 games. It was fine for BO3 and BO5, but even for a BO7 one restart can be too few in my opinion. Two for a BO7 and BO9 could be justified. Maybe even 3 for a Best of 9, especially if it's a Grand Final.

The only issue with applying more restarts the way I see it, is that as an example: Mongols vs Chinese, the Mongols player is up a game or two, he can completely justify just finding his first 4 sheep and going all in for the lame. It would allow players to take more risk when it comes to other RNG aspects such as finding enemy sheep or boars. Most likely you'll play with an advantage or force a restart from your opponent, and worst case scenario you'll potentially use one of your own restarts.

Regardless, well played to Liereyy, he's getting more dangerous with every tournament.
 

United StatesJoshuaR

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#67
Maybe two restarts would have been a sweet spot. Just enough to re an awful map, but not so many that you try to take advantage of good vs bad lames and such.

Viper also had an awful map with only one tiny ponded/wood forward (was that the Incas game?), which you could say was a map win, but the only difference was that it occurred earlier in the match. That said, if people have already taken the time to make more balanced "fair" maps (SY Arabia?), then those should be used as the new standard going forward as long as they don't take away from the uniqueness of a particular map.
 
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#69
i think restarts becoming a strategic part of a series is the worst thing in a tournament. 3 restarts in a bo9 and boom, you're starting to plan your restarts, try to force the opponent to a restart and so on. it all becomes a restart-guessing game.

so it is not about viewers not wanting to waste a few minutes. it changes the course of a tournament.

i'm not an expert so i'll ask a few questions to the experts. was the map the only factor that helped the viper for the final win? wasn't it the map AND the civ? was the map still unwinnable for liereyy with other civ matchups? could liereyy still not win had he not wasted his drush and reacted poorly to the viper's [email protected]?
 

Hungarymisafeco

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#70
i think restarts becoming a strategic part of a series is the worst thing in a tournament. 3 restarts in a bo9 and boom, you're starting to plan your restarts, try to force the opponent to a restart and so on. it all becomes a restart-guessing game.

so it is not about viewers not wanting to waste a few minutes. it changes the course of a tournament.

i'm not an expert so i'll ask a few questions to the experts. was the map the only factor that helped the viper for the final win? wasn't it the map AND the civ? was the map still unwinnable for liereyy with other civ matchups? could liereyy still not win had he not wasted his drush and reacted poorly to the viper's [email protected]?
I'm not an expert either but I would say Malians aren't a good civ against Burmese. If Liereyy can save Huns for the last game he has a much better chance. I think he assumed Viper will choose Burmese for game 8 and if he can manage to beat them with Huns he has a very good chance to win the tournament Malians vs. Ethiopians. Malians have crazy good pierce armor on their infantry units in Imperial Age and Ethiopians don't really have anything to deal with them. FU Arbalests only deal 2 damage to them and the Malian player can easily mix some Eskirms to make it cost effective. It was a great strategic decision by Viper in my opinion to save Burmese as last civ. He lost the Huns vs. Ethiopians game (it was close though) but he won the whole thing and that's what matters.
 
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#71
The best solution would be to get rid of arabia as the standard land map. The biggest flaw of normal arabia is the wood spawn in my opinion. The differences in placement and size of wood spawn of the players is too big. On top of that comes the nasty oases that you can leave you with barely any wood.
I suggest that - just like gold and stone piles - woodlines are set for each player within a certain range of the tc. For example two decent sized and 1 small sized woodlines within range X of TC. The rest can be random as far as I am concerned. (This will still leave open the possibility of players spawning close to each other).
Other important factors that may decide map fairness are tc placement (either close or for away from the edge or corner of the map) and hills. The hills in normal arabia can be too extreme in my opinion.

What I am suggesting is actually much like Green Arabia but with less wood, normal arabia like deer spawn, more hills and more openness.

BTW: assuming this is technically possible of course.
I agree with this, there are many maps that are similar to arabia introduced in the expansions (like valley) and maybe arabia shouldnt be the most standerd land map anymore given how the map generation seems to **** over top players alot
 

Argentina___Black___

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#72
Lierey too strong i never expect 5-4 congrats for viper and Lierey.......
anyway guys you can say that it is luck, they can say that it is the fault of the map, they can say that it is for the civ, they can say many things, the truth is that viper keeps showing that he is the best,amazing
 

Unknownkronrad

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#74
I have just downloaded these games to watch game 4 in the series, however in both POVs at 28 minutes the game crashes. I have dried disabling all content mods but that changed nothing. Has anyone else experienced this?
 

Netherlandsnimanoe

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#75
I have just downloaded these games to watch game 4 in the series, however in both POVs at 28 minutes the game crashes. I have dried disabling all content mods but that changed nothing. Has anyone else experienced this?
what version of userpatch and WololoKingdoms did you use?
 

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