Who is the best pure DE player?

[Rayne]

https://twitter.com/tatohaoe/status/1266484883431608320

http://aoc.history.free.fr/aoc_history/bsk.html

daut vs tatoh in BSK's MVP tournament in 2003-2004

This is exactly what I mean when I mentioned there’s always usually some unknown history behind things. Had no idea Tatoh has been around that long.

Like with Riut, he did have an insanely fast rise in 2009/2010, but in an interview marciocolombia translated, Riut has actually been around since 2001 or 2003. Then on liquipedia with Liereyy, some trivia (if it is right) says he has been playing aoe since he was 8 when he also had a fast rise like Riut. Viper supposedly played scens and 16+ land nomads for awhile before rising to the top in record time with mainly fr.

It always feels like there’s more to a story when someone rises so quickly with some names mentioned here. I’m always a little skeptical when it’s solely presented.

 

[DracKeN]

Then on liquipedia with Liereyy, some trivia (if it is right) says he has been playing aoe since he was 8 when he also had a fast rise like Riut.

It always feels like there’s more to a story when someone rises so quickly with some names mentioned here. I’m always a little skeptical when it’s solely presented.

I recall at least 10 Voobly games vs Liereyy when we were both like 17x-19x, so it has to be around 2013-2014 period. Dunno how fast he went to that level, but fair to assume he plays for at least 11-12 years. And I remember I was very surprised how clean he was playing, for that level it was insane.

 

[Influenza]

I watched aoe youtube videos for like 5 years before i overcame the lazyness to install and setup voobly.

It really doesn't shock me that you could follow one (1) aoe stream in 2016 (we're not even sure he was watching it regularly anyway, follow doesn't mean watch, and he only started to follow aoe2 streams en masse when DE came out), and start playing only in 2019 when the game becomes easily accessible. It actually sounds just logical.

Yea I'm gonna go with occams razor and say that he actually played aoe2 for years before de came out instead of immediately playing better than 98% of the player base as soon as he first touched the game

 

[Socksyy]

I come from the Gameranger BF TG no rush 40 community!

Played there from 2010 to 2012 before I switched to Voobly. The only other notable player from there that I can recall and is still active today is Slaktarn (and maybe Bullet?). I don't think 8thwonder comes from Gameranger but I can be wrong.

Hey me too! Back in 2011
Started with Blackforest tg's and played the odd arabia tg
Answering questions in the lobby to prove you were 'pro'
good times, italics was a pain in the ass though

 

[willdbeast]

Hey me too!

He said notable

 

[WOTC_Cl3m3nT]

Hey me too! Back in 2011
Started with Blackforest tg's and played the odd arabia tg
Answering questions in the lobby to prove you were 'pro'
good times, italics was a pain in the ass though

Oh wow I didn't know! Did you use the same nickname back then?

Man I remember those questions like "What's your castle age timing?" and anything over 17 minutes would get you kicked 11

 

[Socksyy]

He said notable

I am notable, just notably bad lmaooo

 

[Socksyy]

Oh wow I didn't know! Did you use the same nickname back then?

Man I remember those questions like "What's your castle age timing?" and anything over 17 minutes would get you kicked 11

Nah it was some other nickname, one I was also using on halo trial probably. Had alt key characters in it I believe as well but might have been based around the word ylsides which is a character from a game called Arx Fatalis.
And yeah classic question, one that I remember vividly being asked is "should Aztec research loom?" and it being somewhat a trick question as way back then as you know they started the game with loom already researched.

 

[Rayne]

I recall at least 10 Voobly games vs Liereyy when we were both like 17x-19x, so it has to be around 2013-2014 period. Dunno how fast he went to that level, but fair to assume he plays for at least 11-12 years. And I remember I was very surprised how clean he was playing, for that level it was insane.

That’s actually incredibly interesting. I know many stories of players that are/were at the top, and there’s always some similarities.

What you said actually reminds me of slam and Riut. Became friends with slam when I first met him in a 2v2 when he was 17x (I was around 1950 then), and he played unlike any 1700 I ever saw. Same feeling you describe, insanity. Then when I was 2k-2100, he was able to beat me when he was only around 1800-1850. I remember the game too well because it tilted me. It wasn’t a luck win, I got strategically outplayed in that one game. Very unusual.

Then Riut. I can’t recall exact time, but when he first hit 2k, a friend of his I believe posted a pack of his games on aocgroup and wrote something like “One of the newest players that first hit 2k.” Then it was either same guy or someone else that said what was even more impressive was that he was only 14. I remember dling the pack wondering what was so special. What was most impressive was actually his micro. Literally no 2k played that way. It is the same insanity you describe.

Very few players ever have that special “glow” that it feels like you’re describing but it is definitely unforgettable. It’s not necessarily an otherworldly feeling either imo, just a very huge wow. Maybe not talking about it well enough atm.


Otherwise, what else is interesting is the rate of improvement that you mention about Liereyy but also his age (in line with liquipedia age). As far as I know from before, on average, it has taken most players at least 2 years to get 2k minimum. I do remember peeking at a Viper stream in 2015 or early 2016, and Liereyy was playing him being in the 2100 range then. But then there’s age I mentioned. If he was born in 2002 as it says on liquipedia, then he was 13 or 14 when he achieved it. That’s extremely unusual.

I don’t know how many know this, but the amount of players who have at least gotten to 2k before 15 can barely be counted on one hand. Liereyy, Riut, and Chris are the only names I know. Chris was supposedly extremely good when he was around 13 too from a post someone wrote long ago. I was never around then, but it matches records of Chris on liquipedia. Most players at the top from before or even nowadays, achieved what they had when they were around 17 or 18 earliest like Daut for example. Viper was around 19 or 20. I’ve wondered what the link could be, and wonder if emotional maturity has something to do with it. If a player doesn’t have some good degree of self-control or self-discipline, they never get relatively high. Difference that way between 13 and 18 is huge. Maybe Liereyy and co were ahead of the curve that way.

 

[DracKeN]

I do believe Hera was 2k+ also before 15 or very close to it. April 2016 he played in Arabia Invitational which was big tournament at that point and everyone else was at least 2k2+ there. Hera was cca. 16,5 at that point. I recall him playing really well at that tournament before rage quitting it. Not sure if Vinch was 2k+ before 15 either, but in that same tournament he made it into Finals and he was 17. Dark was also close to 15 when he reached 2k. Edie was less than 15 when he reached 2k. So if I'd look for 1 thing in common, if you have insane micro/macro/APM talent you can get good really fast, especially if you play more in the 'mechanical way'. If your gameplay is based more around strategy and decisions (DauT, TatoH, Yo..), you generally get that high in later age. I'd not put in common that everyone who got 2k really early was also more mature than others at the age of 15/16. Although that's a clear sign of Liereyy or Vinch at least in terms of their gaming behaviour.

 

[Rayne]

I do believe Hera was 2k+ also before 15 or very close to it. April 2016 he played in Arabia Invitational which was big tournament at that point and everyone else was at least 2k2+ there. Hera was cca. 16,5 at that point. I recall him playing really well at that tournament before rage quitting it. Not sure if Vinch was 2k+ before 15 either, but in that same tournament he made it into Finals and he was 17. Dark was also close to 15 when he reached 2k. Edie was less than 15 when he reached 2k. So if I'd look for 1 thing in common, if you have insane micro/macro/APM talent you can get good really fast, especially if you play more in the 'mechanical way'. If your gameplay is based more around strategy and decisions (DauT, TatoH, Yo..), you generally get that high in later age. I'd not put in common that everyone who got 2k really early was also more mature than others at the age of 15/16. Although that's a clear sign of Liereyy or Vinch at least in terms of their gaming behaviour.

That’s interesting, I never considered the speed vs strategy conclusion. I think you do have something of a point since a speed/micro style is more “immediate” in a sense.

The psychology guy in me just always wondered about other things rarely listed since somewhere I believe the mind is a key that opens or closes many doors. Infact I believe who a person is at their core influences how their style comes into existence in any game. I think it is even integral and also complicated since personality is a broad thing even with contradictions. A person that isn’t aggressive but more reserved will never completely connect with aggression 100% and will likely prefer playing defensively unless aggression is the best decision for example. Or they’re tired of being defensive and want a change. There’s some examples I could give about top players I believe I’ve noticed with this before and over time. Just things like these, make me wonder about how maturity ties into players of early age, so it popped up in my head. I also mean it more broadly too.

Like how mature and dedicated could someone that is 13 or 14 or even 15 be to know they want a 2k rating? 2200? Become the next top player? And it isn’t a ‘heat of the moment’ thing or a New Year’s resolution that fades the next month? I don’t know about you, but when I was 13/14, my parents couldn’t discipline me, let alone myself. I mean it more around 2kish rating too, because I think the higher rating someone gets after 2k, the easier it is to become intimidated of stronger players since it is entering a bigger league. Not easy to break free from that stuff if one doesn’t have some degree of emotional control, namely with nerves, fear, and tilt. Especially at earlier ages. Nerves can be subtle and slowly disruptive in stronger players, but fear and tilt are always too much. It was one of my issues when I first got there when I was I think 18, wasn’t even like those other guys. So with that, I wonder for instance. I know you’ve been around too, I do remember your name back then when you were 1900 as you mentioned in 2012 or 2013. Dunno if you’ve gone through the same as I have.


I do remember some of those guys, you are right. More players than I thought that have hit 2k before/around 15.

Hera I don’t know the story 100%, but we were friends too back in 2014, and he was in the lower 1900s. Funny I forgot, but he also had that special glow since his ranged micro was better than any 19+ I ever played. I was actually outperformed nearly every xbow war we had and my rating was 150-200 higher if decay wasn’t owning my nick. Then I recall he went through some rough losses and quit for a year or almost 2, then came back in 2016 or therebouts. 16 and a half like you mention. He is one example of self-control with the earlier days, as he did quit I believe 2 or 3 times.

Can’t believe I forgot Edie achieving that, I do remember that now. He’s also some example of when I refer to emotional maturity btw (not an insult if Edie reads this). A degree of it. I don’t know if you or others remember, but he did take medication for nerves when he was trying to break some rating range and said when he didn’t, he’d lose. He asked on the forum about it if anyone else did, and apparently someone else that was a 2300 said they actually did something similar (not sure if they want to be named, so not mentioning publicly).

Dunno much about Darknoob or Vinch, so can’t say but interesting. Also wrote more than I intended in both posts.

 

[_Donatello_]

Geek, Capoch and Fire also got 2k way before they were 15, all of them top 20 along with Chris at 14 so they were to young to go wcg Even if they won Nation qualifyer. also maybe Daut got 2k, he were atleast way above when 16 in schmecker days

 

[IvIaximus]

Hey me too! Back in 2011
Started with Blackforest tg's and played the odd arabia tg
Answering questions in the lobby to prove you were 'pro'
good times, italics was a pain in the ass though

Holy **** "italics", that is something I have not heard for like 12 years? Hamachi usually solved the issue thougjh. I was playing on Gameranger, so was 8th_wonder, his buddy PL_Buniek, and so was Anze, I think he plays under "Mr.Planner" nickname and is around 2200. There were few more who reached 2000+ on Voobly once they developed NAT and we were finally able to play skilled players. Heh, good old days...

 

[Socksyy]

Holy **** "italics", that is something I have not heard for like 12 years? Hamachi usually solved the issue thougjh. I was playing on Gameranger, so was 8th_wonder, his buddy PL_Buniek, and so was Anze, I think he plays under "Mr.Planner" nickname and is around 2200. There were few more who reached 2000+ on Voobly once they developed NAT and we were finally able to play skilled players. Heh, good old days...

Yeah good old days. Hamachi was useful to fix a lot of but not all the issues, with some players I could not get anything to work 11 I still was using it every now and then on Voobly as well but much more rarely

 

[Kellar]

SavvyEmpires

 

[NachoAoE]

I remember playing in gameranger and being better than almost everyone. Even used to make fun of people asking "min pop 200?" or "pop min 30?" in black forest NR 40. I also thought I was very good because I played NR 40 instead of NR 45.

Prometeo (AKA Twigg) played there too for some time.
I didn't know voobly, and when I got absolutely crushed and outplayed I didn't understand what I did wrong or how they did it. Then I discovered all of them were voobly players that knew these things called "Build Orders"
Few players that absolutely killed me in 2010~ in Gameranger:
[Gaucho] EnBolas
8thwonder
Franco ( Gaucho as well, don't remember his nick)

When forgotten empires came out, I remember for some time 10-12 very good players did TGs in Gameranger because FE and Voobly hated eachother I dont remember why, so you couldnt play there. I definitely learned a lot from them aswell
When I began playing in Voobly, my lowest rated ever was like 1550~, so that was probably arround highest level full gameranger players could reach without making the switch.

Untill today I wish that Fast Speed was the standard speed played and not normal speed, but can't win them all 11.

 

[pulse]

Capoch got 2k at 14 if I recall, on his DemonX_Capoch name. Probably 2k1/2k2 at 14 come to think of it. He was exactly what Rayne describes above...just clearly better than everyone else at his rating level. Like he was just casually passing through the 1950 space on his route to the stratosphere.

Geek got 2k when he was probably 15. I met him when he was 13/14, which would have been early 2001. I was 1700, he was 1500 and I taught him how to be like 1650 or so. Then my internet went out for 2 weeks at the same time our clan dissolved, and we lost touch. He somehow tracked me down like 18 months later, idk how he found out who I was, and I was surprised that a 2.3k was messaging a 1900 pleb like me. Unlike Capoch, there was no indication that GeeK would ever amount to anything in AoE. That was a shock.

 

[Rayne]

Incredible... so there’s more players that achieved that kind of rating so young. I’m more fascinated by them.

Geek was good friends with Chris as I recall, wonder if there’s something there. Because Bling and Riut played vs Chris regularly/were friends and I would say he’s a reason they broke 2400.

Edit: Also, didn’t realize there’s still some other people still around from more ancient times on the forums. Thanks for sharing pulse.

 

[MrPlanner]

Holy **** "italics", that is something I have not heard for like 12 years? Hamachi usually solved the issue thougjh. I was playing on Gameranger, so was 8th_wonder, his buddy PL_Buniek, and so was Anze, I think he plays under "Mr.Planner" nickname and is around 2200. There were few more who reached 2000+ on Voobly once they developed NAT and we were finally able to play skilled players. Heh, good old days...

Good old GameRanger times I was like 9 years old at that time. I hit 2k when I was 14 years old. Edie did it at 13, if I'm not mistaken (but he did it playing arena, does it really count? )

 

[odee]

I'd say Mullisaukko! Perfect game knowledge and humble personality

 

[Giuseppe551]

Another interesting one I just remembered is Probe, an Australian starcraft player who picked up aoe for a very short period of time, like a month or two at most, and got 2k or close to it by essentially just making knights. Really not playing properly or learning the game at all. Would have been interesting to see him stick with it.