To change the keep or not to change the Keep ? (full upgraded tower)
EDIT: i will add a short summary of what i am trying to prove below, to prove what we all know: Keeps are useless and not worth their cost. They look pretty but are a total waste to the game.
I would love them to be restored into their role as defensive or offensive backbone in addition to castles. (in a role like Pawns in chess, forward, castles as a main piece in backward position)
intro:
The keep is only available in imperial age. It is rarely used, even by players who mostly fight no rush style - imperial wars. You build castles or bombard towers. The tower line does not have value in Imperial because it had not enough defense power, and it is too weak.
This is sad, because it exists for nothing. Well... tower defense maps, and Korean civ.
What a keep could or should be: a map control building, that offers protection to your economy against raiding units,and can garrison your workers in time of danger. Similar to castle, but less strong, and without the added abilities that a castle has. A 2nd in line to the castle, a means to spread you defense without the huge cost of the castles.
Reality is this: farmers close to TC garrison in TC, some other in castles. But if you have 130 vills there is always a lot of them that will not be garrisoned. So instead of towers, you can just make more TC's, because they do everything a tower does, and much more. Towers have no added value.
Towers as a safehaven against raiding is rarely/never seen in imperial age. To achieve this, towers must get better, or cheaper.
How bad is it?
I did a small investigation in the value and cost of both castle and keep:
So sit back and follow me, or just skip to conclusion down below
Value: both buildings do 3 things:
- map control by ranged fire
- slowing down enemy push, give time to counter
- garrison units when under attack
Cost consist of:
- resources to build it
- the room it takes in you town
- time to build it
upgrades are not taken into account here.
Lets now compare Castle and Keep on those things.
Value 1 ACTIVE DEFENSE: MAP CONTROL BY RANGED FIRE
The defense power is determined by range and firepower (attack)
I went into scenario editor, did some test and made some graphs of the effect that range has on the map.
Range is not just a distance, it is also an area that is covered by the building. I counted the total area that the Castle en Keep cover, for different Civs. See image below. Note that range 1 means: reaching 1 tile over the adjacent tile, that is 1+1 tiles covered. 8+2 will result in 11 tiles covered in one direction.
[ images no longer available ]
To express the active defense power we multiply the covered area by the firepower delivered over that area
This results in different values for ungarrisoned and fully garrisoned with arbalest or hc. Because the latest is not a standard sitation i weigh those values back into one number as follows:
( 66,6% ungarrisoned value + 33,3% garrizoned value)
formula:
tiles covered x attack damage x garrison multiplier x fire rate/min = active defense value range => result 2/1 ratio
guard tower: 405 tiles x 9 x 1-4 x 30 = 109.350 <> 437.400 => 218.700
keep 8+2: 405 tiles x 10 - 13 x 1-4 x 30 = 121.500 <> 631.800 => 291.600
Teuton keep 8+2: 405 tiles x 10 x 1-9 x 30 = 121.500 <> 1.093.500 => 445.500
keep 8+3: 473 tiles x 10 - 13 x 1-4 x 30 = 141.900 <> 737.880 => 340.560
castle 8+2: 552 tiles x 11 - 14 x 4-17 x 26 = 631.488 <>3.415.776 => 1.559.584
castle 8+3: 632 tiles x 11 - 14 x 4-17 x 26 = 723.008 <> 3.910.816 => 1.785.610
Teuton castle 8+5: 804 tiles x 13 x 4-17 x 26 = 1.087.008 <> 4.619.784 => 2.264.600
Value 2 PASSIVE DEFENSE: SLOWING DOWN ENEMY PUSH / BLOCKING PASSAGE
The passive defense is totally dependend on the buildings HP: how long does it survive and will it hold the enemies push. There seems to be a linear relation between HP value and how long the Castle or Tower can survive under attack.
guard tower : 1500 - 1815 HP
keep : 2457 - 3150 HP
castle : 4800 - 8131 HP
Teuton castle: 6389 HP
Value 3 GARRISON VILLAGERS
because garrisoning is not the main purpose of these buildings i translate these values in a factor
towers : 5 translate to 1 garrisoning factor
Teuton towers: 10 translate to 1,5 garrisoning factor
castle : 20 translate to 2 garrisoning factor
TOTAL VALUE
Now we have to combine above 3 values into one number that roughly represents how useful this building is.
starting point: when you have two castles with the same attack, but one holds twice as long vs trebs because of HP, then that castle is twice as good in my opinion. So the total valuation of these defense buildings should be value 1 x value 2 x value 3. There are many variations due to civ differences but this covers the spectrum i think :
(values divided by 1.000.000 for convenience)
Guard Towers min: 218.700 x 1500 x 1 = 328
Guard Towers max: 218.700 x 1815 x 1 = 397
Keep 8+2 min: 291.600 x 2457 x 1 = 716
Keep 8+2 max: 291.600 x 3150 x 1 = 916
Teuton Keep: 445.500 x 2457 x 1.5 = 1642
Keep 8+3 min: 340.560 x 2457 x 1 = 837
Keep 8+3 max: 340.560 x 3150 x 1 = 1073
Castle 8+2: 1.559.584 x 4800 x 2 = 14972
Castle 8+3 Azt: 1.785.610 x 4800 x 2 = 17142
Spa/May Castle: 1.785.610 x 7028 x 2 = 25098
Byz Castle: 1.785.610 x 8131 x 2 = 29037
Teuton Castle: 2.264.600 x 6389 x 2 = 28937
Now about the costs:
Cost 1 RESOURCES TO BUILD
Towers cost 125 stone and 25 wood. I translate the 25 wood to 5 stone making up a total 130 stone (because stone is much harder to get in imp then any other resource). This makes it exactly 5 times cheaper to build then the 650 stone castle. For comparison, a towncenter would cost 155 stone calculated this way.
tower : 130
towncenter : 155
castle : 650
Cost 2 AREA TO BUILD
typical farm production rate is about 19.4 food/min. A farm measures 9 tiles so per tile that is an eco nomic value of 2.15 food / min / tile. Given a theoretic max duration of imperial age of 60 minutes that makes a towns tile value total 130 food.
This results in the following costs of space to be taken by military buildings:
tower : 1 tile x 130 = 130 translated back to stone value (20%) : 26
castle : 16 tiles x 130 = 2080 translated back to stone value (20%) : 416
the area can also be used otherwise off course, for example by putting other military buildings on it. But the valua of those is harder to indicate with a number.
Cost 3 TIME TO BUILD
time to build by one villager:
tower : 1.06 mins x 19.4 food/min = 20.56 food, equals about 4 stone
castle : 2.47 mins x 19.4 food/min = 47.92 food, equals about 9 stone
TOTAL COST
expressed in stone value
tower : 130 + 26 + 4 = 160
castle : 650 + 416 + 9 = 1075
CONCLUSION
cost vs value:
Guard Towers min: 328 cost 160
Guard Towers max: 397 cost 160
Keep 8+2 min: 716 cost 160
Keep 8+2 max: 916 cost 160
Teuton Keep: 1642 cost 160
Keep 8+3 min: 837 cost 160
Keep 8+3 max: 1073 cost 160
Castle 8+2: 14972 cost 1075
Castle 8+3 Azt: 17142 cost 1075
Spa/May Castle: 25098 cost 1075
Byz Castle: 29037 cost 1075
Teuton Castle: 28937 cost 1075
What strikes here is the very poor value of the towers compared to castles. They cost you about 15% of a castle, but they perform only 5-8%. We knew this already, but now it has a number. The tower line is a waste in Imperial age.
Their value even diminishes compared to castles because castles are also very valuable as military production buildings.
It was probably not inteded to be so, or there would not have been an imperial upgrade to keep. I state that the developers made a mistake by downscaling it too much compared to the castles. If you have 3 qualities, decrease all three to 25% you end up with 0,25 x 0,25 x 0,25 = 0,016 of the original value, and not with something around 25%.
Therefore i state it would be interesting for imperial age gameplay to have stronger Keeps, that can fill the gap between TC and Castles. In the current situation it is much better to build a TC then a keep, because it does everything and more then the keep does. That is just not right. The keep should have particular military bonus over an TC, for example in killing raiding units.
It is just to easy and predictable now: you trebs someones castles, and/or raid his vills, and it is gg. Just to easy and seen to often.
Keeps can be altered in the following ways:
- increase HP
- increase attack
- increase fire rate
- increase range
- increase garrison capacity
- faster build time
- decrease build cost
- make it look stronger
- add special bonus vs typical raiding units
- add extra tech for the tower-line
Would you like to give your opinion about this in the poll?
EDIT: i will add a short summary of what i am trying to prove below, to prove what we all know: Keeps are useless and not worth their cost. They look pretty but are a total waste to the game.
I would love them to be restored into their role as defensive or offensive backbone in addition to castles. (in a role like Pawns in chess, forward, castles as a main piece in backward position)
intro:
The keep is only available in imperial age. It is rarely used, even by players who mostly fight no rush style - imperial wars. You build castles or bombard towers. The tower line does not have value in Imperial because it had not enough defense power, and it is too weak.
This is sad, because it exists for nothing. Well... tower defense maps, and Korean civ.
What a keep could or should be: a map control building, that offers protection to your economy against raiding units,and can garrison your workers in time of danger. Similar to castle, but less strong, and without the added abilities that a castle has. A 2nd in line to the castle, a means to spread you defense without the huge cost of the castles.
Reality is this: farmers close to TC garrison in TC, some other in castles. But if you have 130 vills there is always a lot of them that will not be garrisoned. So instead of towers, you can just make more TC's, because they do everything a tower does, and much more. Towers have no added value.
Towers as a safehaven against raiding is rarely/never seen in imperial age. To achieve this, towers must get better, or cheaper.
How bad is it?
I did a small investigation in the value and cost of both castle and keep:
So sit back and follow me, or just skip to conclusion down below
Value: both buildings do 3 things:
- map control by ranged fire
- slowing down enemy push, give time to counter
- garrison units when under attack
Cost consist of:
- resources to build it
- the room it takes in you town
- time to build it
upgrades are not taken into account here.
Lets now compare Castle and Keep on those things.
Value 1 ACTIVE DEFENSE: MAP CONTROL BY RANGED FIRE
The defense power is determined by range and firepower (attack)
I went into scenario editor, did some test and made some graphs of the effect that range has on the map.
Range is not just a distance, it is also an area that is covered by the building. I counted the total area that the Castle en Keep cover, for different Civs. See image below. Note that range 1 means: reaching 1 tile over the adjacent tile, that is 1+1 tiles covered. 8+2 will result in 11 tiles covered in one direction.
[ images no longer available ]
To express the active defense power we multiply the covered area by the firepower delivered over that area
This results in different values for ungarrisoned and fully garrisoned with arbalest or hc. Because the latest is not a standard sitation i weigh those values back into one number as follows:
( 66,6% ungarrisoned value + 33,3% garrizoned value)
formula:
tiles covered x attack damage x garrison multiplier x fire rate/min = active defense value range => result 2/1 ratio
guard tower: 405 tiles x 9 x 1-4 x 30 = 109.350 <> 437.400 => 218.700
keep 8+2: 405 tiles x 10 - 13 x 1-4 x 30 = 121.500 <> 631.800 => 291.600
Teuton keep 8+2: 405 tiles x 10 x 1-9 x 30 = 121.500 <> 1.093.500 => 445.500
keep 8+3: 473 tiles x 10 - 13 x 1-4 x 30 = 141.900 <> 737.880 => 340.560
castle 8+2: 552 tiles x 11 - 14 x 4-17 x 26 = 631.488 <>3.415.776 => 1.559.584
castle 8+3: 632 tiles x 11 - 14 x 4-17 x 26 = 723.008 <> 3.910.816 => 1.785.610
Teuton castle 8+5: 804 tiles x 13 x 4-17 x 26 = 1.087.008 <> 4.619.784 => 2.264.600
Value 2 PASSIVE DEFENSE: SLOWING DOWN ENEMY PUSH / BLOCKING PASSAGE
The passive defense is totally dependend on the buildings HP: how long does it survive and will it hold the enemies push. There seems to be a linear relation between HP value and how long the Castle or Tower can survive under attack.
guard tower : 1500 - 1815 HP
keep : 2457 - 3150 HP
castle : 4800 - 8131 HP
Teuton castle: 6389 HP
Value 3 GARRISON VILLAGERS
because garrisoning is not the main purpose of these buildings i translate these values in a factor
towers : 5 translate to 1 garrisoning factor
Teuton towers: 10 translate to 1,5 garrisoning factor
castle : 20 translate to 2 garrisoning factor
TOTAL VALUE
Now we have to combine above 3 values into one number that roughly represents how useful this building is.
starting point: when you have two castles with the same attack, but one holds twice as long vs trebs because of HP, then that castle is twice as good in my opinion. So the total valuation of these defense buildings should be value 1 x value 2 x value 3. There are many variations due to civ differences but this covers the spectrum i think :
(values divided by 1.000.000 for convenience)
Guard Towers min: 218.700 x 1500 x 1 = 328
Guard Towers max: 218.700 x 1815 x 1 = 397
Keep 8+2 min: 291.600 x 2457 x 1 = 716
Keep 8+2 max: 291.600 x 3150 x 1 = 916
Teuton Keep: 445.500 x 2457 x 1.5 = 1642
Keep 8+3 min: 340.560 x 2457 x 1 = 837
Keep 8+3 max: 340.560 x 3150 x 1 = 1073
Castle 8+2: 1.559.584 x 4800 x 2 = 14972
Castle 8+3 Azt: 1.785.610 x 4800 x 2 = 17142
Spa/May Castle: 1.785.610 x 7028 x 2 = 25098
Byz Castle: 1.785.610 x 8131 x 2 = 29037
Teuton Castle: 2.264.600 x 6389 x 2 = 28937
Now about the costs:
Cost 1 RESOURCES TO BUILD
Towers cost 125 stone and 25 wood. I translate the 25 wood to 5 stone making up a total 130 stone (because stone is much harder to get in imp then any other resource). This makes it exactly 5 times cheaper to build then the 650 stone castle. For comparison, a towncenter would cost 155 stone calculated this way.
tower : 130
towncenter : 155
castle : 650
Cost 2 AREA TO BUILD
typical farm production rate is about 19.4 food/min. A farm measures 9 tiles so per tile that is an eco nomic value of 2.15 food / min / tile. Given a theoretic max duration of imperial age of 60 minutes that makes a towns tile value total 130 food.
This results in the following costs of space to be taken by military buildings:
tower : 1 tile x 130 = 130 translated back to stone value (20%) : 26
castle : 16 tiles x 130 = 2080 translated back to stone value (20%) : 416
the area can also be used otherwise off course, for example by putting other military buildings on it. But the valua of those is harder to indicate with a number.
Cost 3 TIME TO BUILD
time to build by one villager:
tower : 1.06 mins x 19.4 food/min = 20.56 food, equals about 4 stone
castle : 2.47 mins x 19.4 food/min = 47.92 food, equals about 9 stone
TOTAL COST
expressed in stone value
tower : 130 + 26 + 4 = 160
castle : 650 + 416 + 9 = 1075
CONCLUSION
cost vs value:
Guard Towers min: 328 cost 160
Guard Towers max: 397 cost 160
Keep 8+2 min: 716 cost 160
Keep 8+2 max: 916 cost 160
Teuton Keep: 1642 cost 160
Keep 8+3 min: 837 cost 160
Keep 8+3 max: 1073 cost 160
Castle 8+2: 14972 cost 1075
Castle 8+3 Azt: 17142 cost 1075
Spa/May Castle: 25098 cost 1075
Byz Castle: 29037 cost 1075
Teuton Castle: 28937 cost 1075
What strikes here is the very poor value of the towers compared to castles. They cost you about 15% of a castle, but they perform only 5-8%. We knew this already, but now it has a number. The tower line is a waste in Imperial age.
Their value even diminishes compared to castles because castles are also very valuable as military production buildings.
It was probably not inteded to be so, or there would not have been an imperial upgrade to keep. I state that the developers made a mistake by downscaling it too much compared to the castles. If you have 3 qualities, decrease all three to 25% you end up with 0,25 x 0,25 x 0,25 = 0,016 of the original value, and not with something around 25%.
Therefore i state it would be interesting for imperial age gameplay to have stronger Keeps, that can fill the gap between TC and Castles. In the current situation it is much better to build a TC then a keep, because it does everything and more then the keep does. That is just not right. The keep should have particular military bonus over an TC, for example in killing raiding units.
It is just to easy and predictable now: you trebs someones castles, and/or raid his vills, and it is gg. Just to easy and seen to often.
Keeps can be altered in the following ways:
- increase HP
- increase attack
- increase fire rate
- increase range
- increase garrison capacity
- faster build time
- decrease build cost
- make it look stronger
- add special bonus vs typical raiding units
- add extra tech for the tower-line
Would you like to give your opinion about this in the poll?