RBW3 Feedback

[robo]

Bracket & Info

If you have feedback about the event format/settings, production, qualifiers etc. please let us know here.

Please don't have discussions about the feedback, take that to another thread.

 

[RogganWololo]

1) Bo3 in the round robin: Personally I'm not a fan of Bo3 in big tournaments (unless its something like round robin play all 3 games or something) because of inherent RNG in the game, a Bo5 is somewhat better for evening it out. This is even more applicable in EW since the smallest of mistakes (like losing your first archer for free) can result in a loss for you if you have a bad map, also EW games are shorter so a Bo5 here takes less time than in RM. I understand that this would greatly increase the time length of the GSL stage (which I love btw, much better than single elimination) and it wouldn't have been possible to cover 8 series in one day, but I still don't like the idea of compromising "fairness" for a smooth schedule. Maybe having it over 4 days (Thursday-Sunday like in the previous editions) and Bo5 would have made more sense.

2) Starting time: I believe the days started at 13 GMT in RBW1 and 2, and ended around 21-22 GMT. RBW3 started at 15 GMT, which resulted in the day ending at 23-0 GMT, which not only is bad for Asian players, but Asian (and to some extent EU) viewers as well. I don't know what the reasoning behind this was, since 13 GMT is a more balanced time for NA/SA, EU and the eastern world. This is even worse considering that the most interesting matches take place towards the end of the day. I dearly hope that you consider an earlier starting time next time

3) External observer: I initially wasn't a fan of this, but after watching Nili's video it made more sense to me, however, having an observer who has little experience with the game didn't make sense to me. It did get better over the event though, so I hope it'll be even better next time, however I would much rather prefer to have someone from the community who is experienced with the game (and potentially even has casting experience) as the observer.

IMO the rest of the stuff: production, map pool, settings, and most importantly quality of the games, were top-class. Kudos to robo and the rest of the production team for pulling it off!

 

[vesnoimorskoi]

Old Capture Age was much better. Other than that, I couldn't be more satisfied as an average viewer.

 

[Syphax]

No more observer. Observers are unnecessary and casters do a great job with the camera anyway. They have sooo much experience. If they miss something, that happens. There are two of them anyway.

 

[Dagan]

Overall the event was really enjoyable for me and here are some suggestions.

1- Regarding the observer, I understand how the observer makes it way easier for the production team but he or she should know the game very well and have played the game long enough to reduce the awkward moments when casters are describing something and the observer is somewhere else on the map or simply doesn't know what exactly is going on.

2-I still prefer single elimination rather than BO3 group stage because the luck factor matters more in BO3 matchups.

3-Qulifiers needed more organizing because they were casted and got a good amount of views so it would be nice to have less conflicts between matches.

4-Having more casters would be better and gives the event more diversity.

 

[Degaussed]

I thought this was a great, well-run event which I absolutely loved as a viewer. The only feedback I have is that sometimes it seemed like there was a lack of preparation in the post-match interviews (I'm not sure if this was because LT was meant to do the whole weekend and was unable to and the commentators were thrown into this at the last minute?).

Nili was excellent at it from what I saw - he's obviously the best player of the three commentators, and with his background as a teacher I think that really helps in the questions he asks and the way he conducts the interviews. I want to be as respectful as I can be here because T90 and Dave are great commentators, but when they are interviewing they were usually awkward, the questions didn't seem to be prepared, and it seemed like they were asking questions as they popped into their head. I don't want to sound harsh because I'm sure it's not easy, especially after a LONG day of streaming, but I felt like I was watching a really polished event until it got to some of the interview sections.

Either having a dedicated interviewer for the whole event, or just more practice/preparation, would help a lot

 

[thefisch]

I loved this tournament, the production quality was insane! I mostly watched the 2nd weekend, so the problems with the observer weren't very noticable for me. I especially liked the smooth transitions, the relativly short downtime and even the highlight fillers were well done compared to many events before. If things continue this way, I think aoe e-sports has a very bright future!

 

[Adico]

Observer: I like the idea of an observer, but I feel it needs to be homegrown. mapu is great, and if he is able to put in more hours to observing ahead of any future event I think he would do a wonderful job. But even with as little practice as the broadcast team got I still feel they did an excellent job. There was only a handful of times where the de-sync between the camera and the commentators was noticeable (to me).

Qualifiers: I really liked that we had highlights of qualifiers and that it was from a variety of casters. Really felt like there was more of a connection between the Qualis and the Main Event.

Interviews: I think the interviews were fine. I do agree they seemed a little unstructured and awkward. But I also know the unfortunate circumstances behind them, so all in all I think they were fine. The opening interviews with memb were straight fire though, having them all in a group really helped bring a lot of energy to them.

Format: I liked the GLS group stage, I think it was a bit awkward to have the decider game on a different day and also be a different series (BO5 with draft instead of free pick BO3). I think a much more interesting format would be a global draft for all your potential series, and all series are BO3. So you would draft 12-15 civs that you can use throughout the whole of the group stages. There can still be mirror matches, but there is also a lot more excitement for those Bo3 matches because if a player (for example Hera) didn't think he was going to a decider, he might have burned pretty good civs in the earlier two matches. So you end up with a scrappy BO3 of two players who are likely to not play top tier civs.

Showmatch: the showmatch was awesome! just that. I love to see more interaction between AoE and other RTS. Hell for the next one bring in some broodwar players and make it a 90' themed LAN party.

 

[Cuth]

I liked it alot. I'm fine with the BO3 setting as you get a second chance anyway.
I'm a big fan of EW.


Congratulations guys!

 

[ltm]

First of all thanks to anyone involved, i think it was a great event. Competitive and very entertaining

-settings/maps: I think EW is fun to watch so glad this series continues, it's interesting to see what players come up with. The maps offered a good variety, especially turning two of the maps to hybrid maps was interesting because in EW it feels more like an actual decision to instantly fish or not compared to standard RM where you pretty much always see early docks on these type of maps.

But i hope they keep changing to keep things fresh.

-Tournament structure: Group stage provides more games to watch and adds an interesting dimension because players may be inclined to hide strategies, have more games to study opponents etc. but not sure about doing the decider games one week later with BO5. Makes it too different to the rest of the group stage.

Also didn't like how the group stage didn't have a draft and was just BO3, seeing Vikings over and over again and not much civ variety in general was a bit boring and it separates the group stage too much from the rest of the tournament imo.

-Schedule: I don't know why it got pushed back compared to the other events (?) but i would prefer it starting 1-2h earlier.

-Production/casting/interviews: Production quality was great, casting good as always even though i wasn't a fan of the observer and the casters (besides Nili later in the tournament) not actually reacting to what we got to see. Interviews were a bit dry, but it was probably the first time for LilTrouble doing that so i'm sure she will improve. Winner interview was honestly quite a letdown as well, but i guess they weren't really prepared to do it.

Memb interviews with all the players of each group at once were great.

-Observer: At first i was very irritated and didn't like it at all. Over the course of the event it got better but still far from ideal. I watched Nilis video on it and agree that it is a good idea especially from the production point of view, but the execution just wasn't great. I think for this to work the observer has to do a better job being at the right place at all times AND the casters should work more with the footage the viewers will actually see (like Nili did, that made it feel more connected). Seeing the observer constantly "chasing" what the casters are talking about is weird and obviously showing random buildings or stray units while the casters talk about a fight on the other side of the map should never happen. So good in theory, but needs better coordination next time.

I think that's all, again it was a nice event and i'm already looking forward to the next one.

DAUTSLIDE

 

[Festivus]

Not entirely a rbw3 feedback, but I really dislike the current Capture Age overlay. As someone who watches a LOT of AOE2 it still takes far too long to figure out what everything on the screen means, and detracts from important info. Overall I think production on these events is very good and there are always things that I hope get picked up and used in individually hosted tournaments. Ideally I'd hope that the CA overlay can get improved, because the versions of it prior to DE were absolutely amazing, but in lieu of that I'd love to see production handle it better, either with more between game segments from memb or something explaining key aspects of it, from the observer doing more the visual clutter understandable or something. The vast majority of the available stats aren't even ever discussed over the course of the broadcast including many of the ones on the screen. And other stats, not on the screen, could add incredible insight if only the casters/observers were aware of them. Again, I don't blame the casters/observers here as I think the overlay is not in a good state right now, but if it is going to be used I think the preparation needs to be done around it and it didn't seem to be.

 

[Rustyiesty]

Also, I love seeing new people hosting the event! It's so good to see women get more exposure in the game. For the next edition, it would be amazing to see a female co-caster. I can't wait for tomorrow!

To answer your question from the Main Event thread @Mattcatticus, I believe Lavie_Head co-casted some games in Russian with Mr Grin.

Given the main casters were sometimes casting all day, could there be an opportunity for a female co-caster to share the load, maybe earlier on?

E.g. Ashleylynn has been casting a lot, Odette has recent pro casting experience in Czech, RoxyC is hosting top level showmatches, or LilT herself could step in.

 

[green eggs]

Agreed that it would be great to have more women hosting and casting these big events. We can definitely do more to normalize the presence of women in this community. Not to mention LT did an excellent job!

 

[uberkerl]

Observer: I think the idea is great but there arent any trained observers with deeper aoe2 knowledge and even if mapu gained some experience with RBW how far does 1 guy get us?
The next problem is that casters and the observer need to develop some chemistry and it is questionable how many tournaments can put up that amount of production as RBW can and that is necessary for Casters gaining experience with the observer model and some people can rise up as skilled observers from the aoe community so the casters and observers get some experience as a team.
There are technical limitations on the power of the observer thanks to AoE2 Nili explained more of that in his video.
Overall im skeptical how far the model will go but I like that it was tryed.
The super complicated CA overlay was another level on the same problem.

Host: while I like LilTrouble it was really hard to get somone on schedule from Australia and you could feel it.

Interviews: while the idea of interviews as a way to get to know the players a bit more there is a big problem that half of the players dont speak good enough english and the other half can barely put 5 words together in public so most interviews sound absolutely generic. "these were some tough games and Yes im happy I won/sad I lost" "My next opponent is obviously really good but I think I have good chances"
since it's mostly winner interviews people dont wanna talk strategy so that topic is dead as well.
There are like 3 people that give good interviews: Daut, Viper and Hera. Lierrey and mbl make for a great interview when you have both at the same time. Everyone else is kinda 5 minutes of awkward dead air.
I dont fault the players at all for this. They are who they are.


(Yes I left out all the parts I liked to not create a huge WOT. overall a great tournament. plz have Daut win more often Kappa)

 

[Chainsaw]

I also would prefer a greater variety of english speaking casters. Having the same 3 in English does a disservice to the many players/casters we have and the chemistry they bring.

 

[Cuth]

#bringbackKillerB

 

[PouletMayo1]

I think the main strength of this event is that its different and the meta is not defined. Since the maps are always different, you can expect different civs and strategies. That's why I loved the Atacama's pond addition. I don't think that it makes the map better, but it's different and the players must adapt to it. And that's why the final was so awesome, it was unique strategies with unique civs against what people usually picked in the tournament. I think as long as the map pool changes a bit each time, it will be great as it was the first three editions.

For the same reason of uniqueness of map and civs, I think the group stage was a bit underwhelming. It was vikings and magyars over and over again on the same maps. I like the group stage addition since the brackets are randomized, but BO3 without draft was not enough I believe.

 

[Redmus]

I hope to see new English casters, there are too many to only stick with the same casters. Personally Nili creates odd moments sometimes

 

[Manu]

You guys know that feedbacks also mean what went good and was positive right?

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

1 ) Observer mod might be a good concept but you need someone more experience to control the camera
2 ) different casters, I had to switch to Memb/Dogao even though 95 % oif what they said wasn't understandable for me
3 ) I liked rockslide map - thought it would be just a boring galleyfest but this map turned out to be probably the most difficult one to play becomeing very challenging for the players
4 ) Probably not RB's fault but I don't understand certain EW nerfs. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but:
a ) Lithuanians lose 150 food bonus
b ) Ethiopians get 100 food and 100 gold extra
c ) Vikings start with 3 extra villagers and 225 more resources in reality
d ) Aztecs and Goths additional 50 gold
e ) Persians recieve 50 food and 50 wood from the get go
f ) Huns don't need houses at all but begin with standard wood amount
and so on and so on

What was the reasoning behind removing Lithuanian bonus? Usually when you make a change anywhere it requires a justification so I would like to know why that happened.

 

[robo]

What was the reasoning behind removing Lithuanian bonus? Usually when you make a change anywhere it requires a justification so I would like to know why that happened.

Not a justification, just an explanation.

All Dark age bonuses were removed from Feudal starts, so Lithuanian, Persian, Aztec, Inca, china, maya etc while Feudal bonuses still have an effect as its the Feudal age, Ethiopians, Vikings.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Not a justification, just an explanation.

All Dark age bonuses were removed from Feudal starts, so Lithuanian, Persian, Aztec, Inca etc while Feudal bonuses still have an effect as its the Feudal age, Ethiopians, Vikings.

Was it somehow thought out or let's just remove bonus because dark age?

 

[ItsYoshi]

On interviews: I find it really awkward when players are interviewed infront of other players BEFORE a set asking how they will perform, particularly players who do not know each other. It's ok when it's aM/GL and it's jovial but with some of the other players it was quite jarring to ask a player infront of their opponent how they think their chances are. I understand it was probably because of time restraints, but I think shorter interviews with individual players (especially that we don't often hear from) would've been amazing.
(I'm only making one small point of criticism, as a whole RBW3 was really enjoyable)

 

[JFK]

Positive:

• I enjoyed Liltrouble as a host. I did not know her at all and I was very impressed by her radiating positive energy, even though she seemed a little nervous in the beginning. If you read this, you surely got a new fan.
• The observer seemed to need some games to get used to his role. In the second week, he was doing a great job and it was really enjoyable for me.
• GSL System providing excellent games and great upsets. In this game mode every win/loss matters (see for example Hera)
• The maps in general provided excellent games. Every single map was great, which happens rarely in tournaments.

What could be improved

• Restricting english casting to the main channel does not make much sense in my opinion. Maybe RedBull can be convinced that it does not hurt them to make further tournaments fully open casting.
• In my personal opinion, noone does interviews quite the way that Memb can do them. Not letting him do the interviews after the game is a missed chance.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

In my personal opinion, noone does interviews quite the way that Memb can do them. Not letting him do the interviews after the game is a missed chance.

It feels like the players feel comfortable only around him as an interviewer ^^