No not that you were only talking about DE, why you think Voobly has no bearing or relation to DE.I already had clarified what I meant. not sure how repeating myself would clarify it further
No not that you were only talking about DE, why you think Voobly has no bearing or relation to DE.I already had clarified what I meant. not sure how repeating myself would clarify it further
it has no bearing on the current state of the game. when we are talking about how it is currently constructed, in comparison to a future update, the past versions have nothing to do with the current experience. not sure how much more I can clarify on that. the game has changed and is continuing to change.No not that you were only talking about DE, why you think Voobly has no bearing or relation to DE.
It still has connection in that how the game was and the experience of playing that can inform how people want it to look going forward. Agree with the second and third paragraphs. Don't think the devs are trying to get rid of it as much as they just keep trying more of the sams superficial change that doesn't work because the problems run more deep.it has no bearing on the current state of the game. when we are talking about how it is currently constructed, in comparison to a future update, the past versions have nothing to do with the current experience. not sure how much more I can clarify on that. the game has changed and is continuing to change.
some are complaining and exaggerating that the defensive and walling aspect is either gone or that devs are trying to get rid of it completely. that is simply not true, it's currently a very viable strategy (arguably still the most effective way, especially based on how pros play it) and may continue to be even after this next update. I just don't see how making palisade walls cost 1 more wood and slightly weaker houses will completely negate walls altogether as some are suggesting.
I feel the intent is to find a balance where sacrificing early walls for more aggression is rewarded more than it currently is, but that well executed defense can still be very effective as well.
liereyy has said the vikings lacking thumb ring is good, because they were too strong and this will nerf them, but he has not commented on the buffs to their infantryHas any pro player made a vid commenting on these new changes yet? Or they're still tied up with Aoe4 content.
If liereyy, the master of Vikings, says it, you know it's true.liereyy has said the vikings lacking thumb ring is good, because they were too strong and this will nerf them, but he has not commented on the buffs to their infantry
I can't be bothered to find it in the VOD, what did he sayLiereyy was talking about the wall nerfs on his stream yesterday, just before and during his game against bruh (Italians vs Burmese) if you want to try and find it on the vod. Not sure about anything formal, though. A lot of the pros just leave it until the actual patch comes out.
He basically was ranting 15min, that it's no fun to play ladder due everyone just full walling and is boring and can't learn anything that way, so he obviously was happy it getting nerfed for 5th time.I can't be bothered to find it in the VOD, what did he say
Yes, I can agree with the nerfs doing nothing as another possibility. Walls are more expensive? Put another Villager on wood. Walls get yet another build time nerf? Start walling earlier, or put another Villager on walling. Walls get weaker? Double wall, or put a Villager or two on stone and stone wall also. There are plenty of ways for Drush FC players to adjust their builds to the nerfs and still get their walls up in time for Feudal Age players to demand more ineffective walling nerfs.trying more of the sams superficial change that doesn't work because the problems run more deep.
Drush FC is not even a good strategy at the moment. The dark age wall HP nerfs and the new more open arabia made sure of that. You have to be really lucky with map gen to pull off a strong drush FC on the current arabia. No, they killed drush FC. What they didn't kill is full walling after opening m@a. Basically only two strategies are viable now, m@a archers or drush archers, with straight archers working as a counter to m@a sometimes and drush FC working if vs another drushing player (since drush FC beats drush flush). M@a arch destroys drush FC though and even scouts + towers kills it as well.Yes, I can agree with the nerfs doing nothing as another possibility. Walls are more expensive? Put another Villager on wood. Walls get yet another build time nerf? Start walling earlier, or put another Villager on walling. Walls get weaker? Double wall, or put a Villager or two on stone and stone wall also. There are plenty of ways for Drush FC players to adjust their builds to the nerfs and still get their walls up in time for Feudal Age players to demand more ineffective walling nerfs.
i think that should apply to all civ boni as well on nomad. no faster building tc for spanish, no wood reduction for malians, a bit delayed fishing ship for persians etc.I think the treaty option for nomad is fair enough to prevent villager boxing, but would it not be a better solution to change their attack to 0 until the tc has been build? Like the chinese only getting more villagers after the tc has been build.
That's not how it works. All the things you mention put you further behind in eco, which can weaken the strategy.Yes, I can agree with the nerfs doing nothing as another possibility. Walls are more expensive? Put another Villager on wood. Walls get yet another build time nerf? Start walling earlier, or put another Villager on walling. Walls get weaker? Double wall, or put a Villager or two on stone and stone wall also. There are plenty of ways for Drush FC players to adjust their builds to the nerfs and still get their walls up in time for Feudal Age players to demand more ineffective walling nerfs.
Adapting to the situation is literally how it works. How it works for much, if not the whole game, in fact. There's been, what, FIVE walling nerfs now? And the Full Wall FC Arabia meta has not changed one bit. No, not at all. No, this nerf will do nothing either, except encourage Full Wall FC players to go harder on walls. Which they will not mind when walls are the strategy's cornerstone! And not economy! Going harder on walls = Feudal Age players must make a higher investment into busting down the harder walling, unless they Full Wall FC themselves. Okay, I'll give you the Full Wall FC player is more "behind" in economy than before the nerfs (though nobody is losing Villagers.) But it also puts the Feudal aggro player behind that much more in economy when they must now invest more military into breaking harder walling!That's not how it works. All the things you mention put you further behind in eco, which can weaken the strategy.
That's such a fallacious way of thinkingAdapting to the situation is literally how it works. How it works for much, if not the whole game, in fact. There's been, what, FIVE walling nerfs now? And the Full Wall FC Arabia meta has not changed one bit. No, not at all. No, this nerf will do nothing either, except encourage Full Wall FC players to go harder on walls. Which they will not mind when walls are the strategy's cornerstone! And not economy! Going harder on walls = Feudal Age players must make a higher investment into busting down the harder walling, unless they Full Wall FC themselves. Okay, I'll give you the Full Wall FC player is more "behind" in economy than before the nerfs (though nobody is losing Villagers.) But it also puts the Feudal aggro player behind that much more in economy when they must now invest more military into breaking harder walling!
That's why these walling nerfs are not working, even after five (5!) of them. And so Feudal players ought to be demanding buffs to counter walls like Trushing, instead of nerfs to walls.
If walling nerfs hurt anybody, it's Feudal aggro civs with early game economy and military bonuses that are inferior to better Feudal aggro civs, making the first aggro civ more reliant on earlier Feudal walling because it's the only other good survival tool they have vs. a superior Feudal military/economy.
But if Feudal players shall not see these things now, then maybe they'll see, I hope, in, oh, no more than three months after the patch drops when they're back to demanding more walling nerfs.
Now this is becoming pure bullshit. After nerfs, walling to SAME extent requires more effort but now we're suddenly supposed to work under assumption that MORE walling was done despite the nerf? No. You don't even know what you are saying. Aggro player is investing same as always, walling player has to invest more to wall up as effectively as in the past, to counter same investment of aggressive player. That's the situation. Don't twist it for the sake of pushing your flawed narrative and inability to admit your argumentation was wrong.But it also puts the Feudal aggro player behind that much more in economy when they must now invest more military into breaking harder walling!
Don't forget Mongols, who have skyrocketed to the best civ in the game on the current arabia due to the lack of counterplay to 18/19 pop m@a into forward range ****."achieve what was hoped."
As if forward wood lines, forward resource spawns, ridiculously dumb giant hills in front of one's base et al weren't enough.
Neeeed to nerf walls for a fifth time!
That way my Mayans/Franks with significant early eco and military bonuses can just plow over everyone else.
The yolo aggression no consequence crew also needs defensive play to be a significant disadvantage in terms of economic and idle time in building investment vice spamming military towards your opponents base with no planning.
Just garbage balance.
I agree with your whole post. And for this part, I feel it's not idle time when Villagers are still doing what you want them to do (build walls, and walking is a part of building walls.) Which is another reason for why walling nerfs don't work....idle time in building investment...
You don't know what you are talking about, trushing is a step back in the meta, strategies that need to be mirrored to counter them are the most pathetic strategies in the game, like the inca vill rush, even if you could mirror it the armored villagers was just too much of a dirty advantage, going back to that would be a disgrace to the game.I agree with your whole post. And for this part, I feel it's not idle time when Villagers are still doing what you want them to do (build walls, and walking is a part of building walls.) Which is another reason for why walling nerfs don't work.
But if it ought to count as idle time, then the Feudal aggro player ought to count their idle time for walking to place a military building + the build time for the military building + the build time for extra Houses + the military idle time for training an opening force + the military idle time between walking from the military building to when units hit the opponent's base + the military idle time when walking to change targets. That idle time would be higher than idle time for Full Wall FC, I reckon. Which is another reason for why Full Wall FC is a natural counter to most Feudal rushes, and why it cannot balance vs. Feudal aggro without making walling useless for everybody, including Feudal vs. Feudal games.
I pray the infantry buffs from the last and next patch are enough to bring Trushing back into the meta for civs with good M@A. It may be that cheaper Supplies and stronger Long Swords might coax players into making up for weaker Feudal Tower HP by committing more M@A to a Trush.
Sounds like the black pot accusing the black kettle of being black to me! And players complaining about Trushing curiously only complain about certain civs instead of Trushing in general. But if this is a subtle troll post, then congratulations, you got me....strategies that need to be mirrored to counter them are the most pathetic strategies in the game...
Sounds like the black pot accusing the black kettle of being black to me! And players complaining about Trushing curiously only complain about certain civs instead of Trushing in general. But if this is a subtle troll post, then congratulations, you got me.
Imagine you could use those villager skins too- Houses now have -2/-1/1/3 melee armor Dark/Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age (previously 0/1/2/3 Dark/Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age).
- Aztecs: non-Elite Jaguar Warrior now have 65 HP (previously 50 HP).
- Burmese: Manipur Cavalry now gives +5 against archers (previously +6 against buildings), no longer applies to Arambai.
- Byzantines: Team Bonus: Monks heal +100% faster (previously +50%).
- Celts: Woad Raider now have 10 attack (previously 8 attack).
- Cumans: Stables and Archery Ranges cost -75w (previously -100w).
- Ethiopians: non Elite Shotel Warrior have 45 HP (previously 40 HP), upgrade to Elite now costs 900f 450g (previously 1200f 550g).
- Incas: non-Elite Kamayuk now have 1 melee armor and 70 HP (previously 0 melee armor and 60 HP).
- Japanese: non-Elite Samurai have 70 HP (previously 60 HP), upgrade to Elite now costs 750f 650g (previously 950f 875g).
- Malians: non-Elite Gbeto have 35 HP (previously 30 HP).
- Poles: Now have access to Siege Engineers, (Elite) Obuch now train in 12 seconds (previously 9 seconds).
- Teutons: non-Elite Teutonic Knight have 14 attack and 7 melee armor (previously 12 attack and 5 melee armor), upgrade to Elite now costs 950f 500g (previously 1200f 600g).
- Vikings: Lose access to Thumb Ring, infantry now have +20% HP from feudal (previously +10/15/20% HP Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age), non-Elite Berserk now have 12 attack and 1 melee armor (previously 9 attack and 0 melee armor), upgrade to Elite now costs 1075f 475g (previously 1300f 550g).
- UI change, hovering your mouse over the tech tree icon shows you which upgrades are available/unavailable and which upgrades you have already researched. Can be toggle on/off in the settings. https://imgur.com/a/M4TcoNJ
Edit 1:
- Tamerlane and Tariq Coop campaigns are available, plus quickplay vs AI
- Nomad has treaty.
- Arabia gen changed to KotD Arabia gen.
Edit 2
- Palaside walls cost increases by 50%, 2w to 3w
Edit 3
- New trade carts
Edit 4
Yeah, because in higher elo people do drush into fc, right? I mean ofc in higher elo people get punished harder, but even watching Liereyy you can see drush FC still being very often chosen and not saying it shouldn't be viable, but walls should be short defence tool, so few troops do not kill 5 vills, not 5min straight thing.If people are full walling FC on Arabia in all of your games then your ELO is too low and no amount of nerfs will fix that