thanks, I stand corrected. I couldn't find it myself. Very interesting readhttps://forums.ageofempires.com/t/the-real-reason-why-de-was-never-finished-properly/36516
Here is the source. It's from one of the guys who helped working on the DE, posted 16 days ago. Seems pretty credible to me. Note that the guy who wrote this wasn't working on DE from the beginning and it's only the story of one of the devs. Not sure if he feels the same way as other devs as they haven't really said anything afaik.
Well, I don't know if it's credible or not, but I doubt MS will do a stupid move and ruin aoe 2 de, it's their last chance to bring the series back, also with all these tournaments sponsoring, I have a good hope for AOE 2 DE and AOE in general, my bet is they'll be announcing it in ecl lan final.
Wat ?Berbers, Byzantines, Chinese, Ethiopians, Indians, Malians, Mongols, Persians, Saracens, Turks
Start with a Scout Camel instead of a Scout Cavalry. Indians would not get their +1 camel pierce armor bonus until castle age.
Hit Points: 75
Attack: 2 (+1 upon reaching feudal age)
Attack Bonus vs Cavalry: +5
Melee Armor: 0
Pierce Armor: 0
Speed 1.15 (+.3 upon reaching Feudal Age)(Slower than Scout Cavalry in both ages, faster than Eagle Scout in both ages.)
I initially thought of this as a Saracen bonus and then thought it would be a cool flavor to all civs that could build camels, similar to Mesoamerican civs. It would be very expensive as a feudal unit I know but it might help the Saracens Camels an earlier bonus to get to the later game. Possibly you could give them a free upgrade from Scout Camel to regular Camel as well.
I think this would help with the paper - rock - scissors feel in the feudal age.
Combat wise: A scout cavalry kills a villager (assuming feudal age and loom) in 9 hits and takes 15 back. This would be similar in ratio but slower in speed, killing a villager in 15 hits and taking 25 back.
Scout Camels would destroy Scout Cavalry... 8 attack (vs cavalry) and 75 hp for camels vs 5 attack and 45 hp for cavalry. (one camel could kill two scout cavalry in a straight-up battle).
Versus archers (with fletching), Scout Cavalry take 6 hits to kill an archer and 15 hits from archers to kill the scout cavalry. Scout Camels would take 10 hits to kill an archer and 12 hits from archers to kill the scout camels.
I realize the high relative cost of the camels may be prohibitive to actually building them in feudal age. Similar to archers and eagles, these civs could get a power spike upon reaching castle age. Saracens especially would gather a large bonus if they received this upgrade for free.
I think this would be the largest buff for the Byzantines and Turks (and Saracens if they received the upgrade for free). Turks faster gold miners would mean that that economy bonus could go to camels early on, although that might be awkward with not using the free light cavalry upgrade).
Change MAA line cost to 45 food, 20 gold
Change Goth bonus to Infantry are 35% cheaper in Dark Age, 30% in the Feudal Age, 25% in Castle Age, 20% in Imperial Age.
Infantry are very situational in the game, even for civilizations that are supposed to excel in this area. I think they are fairly cost prohibitive for how they can either be countered easily or avoided. I think if infantry was cheaper (or made better in some way) Goths would become more viable. If infantry was better, Scorpions would increase in value, and thereby Khmer would become better. If infantry was more common, maybe Teutonic Knights would become more viable as well as the speed discrepancy is not as great between them and standard infantry as it is with cavalry, and that is where they would truly excel, vs enemy infantry.
In the pro game, this perhaps could create greater feudal play as with more infantry on the field, walls and buildings would fall faster.
Towers could only be built within 6 squares of one of your mining camps, lumber camps, docks, mills, town centers or another tower.
If this was doable, that would make towers more of a defensive structure as opposed to an offensive one.
A limit of 1 Feitoria may be built per Castle built, each Feitoria takes 0 population space.
I'm not a fan of connecting buildings to population space. And ever since it was connected, it became largely unusued. The major problem with it is spamming, so control it another way... one is allowed to be built per castle standing.
For once he isn't saying absolute nonsense :@SouFire link or F off
My only wish, give me back my building HPs, you monsters.
Hyuna u ****er, i know u come here to talk about the Burmese S.O...
@SouFire link or F off
Slavs:
- farming bonus reduced to 10% instead of 15%
slav farming is just ridiculous strong, everytime you play vs slavs it feels like a big disadvantage from the start already and for most civs it's super hard to compete with it
Indians:
- villagers cost 5%/10%/15%/20% instead of 10%/15%/20%/25%
- Fishermen lose the +15% gather bonus, but still carry +15in a normal game indians save nearly 900 food for the first 100 vills (5*20 (dark) + 8*15 (feudal) + 10*65 (castle) = 870) no other civ comes even close to this (eg vikings save 475 food and 250 wood with free wheelbarrow/handcart); The change would reduce it to nearly 600 food (3*20 (dark) + 5*15 (feudal) + 7*65 (castle) = 590) and therefore make it a way more reasonable bonus. Especially in TGs indians is still by far the best pkt civ, since you have the combination of best mobility + best eco + a counter unit vs kt-line. It's just annoying to play against it, knowing your changes are very small from the begining on.
From playing maps like bedouins/SYNC_valley/Dry_River (aka maps with mass shorefish), but also watching ECL games on the those maps, it's pretty obvious that indians become an even more dominating and one dimensional civ on these maps. Indians just dont need the faster-fishing bonus, the carry-bonus is already very good considering fishermen usually just carry 10 food
Goths:
- cheaper infantry bonus applies in darkage
- get thumbring
goth is currently still the worst civ in TGs on open landmaps especially as flank (just look at the civ drafts of BoA, where they got always picked as last). To change this their infantry should be cheaper in darkage, so you can use the civ bonus for drushing and men@arm rushes. They should also get thumbring to make the civ less one-dimensional, so you can still play mass xbows in TGs and even switch to CA in late castle age. Even for early Imp CA would be somehow viable, since goths only lack Parthian Tactics
Malay:
- (Elite) Karambit warrior cost 25 food, 15 gold from 30 food, 15 gold
- Elite Karambit upgrade costs 1200 food, 800 gold from 900 food, 600 gold
- (Elite) Karambit created in 9s instead of 6s
- Elite Karambit attack increased back to 8 from 7
Karambits feel right now like trash most of the time. They only have a very small window in early imp, where they shine a little bit. To change this i would reduce their food cost back to 25, so it's easier to get them rolling, but keep the gold cost as it is, else they're too good in 1v1s when the gold runs out. Now to make them not too OP in early imp, the elite upgrade should be increased a little bit.
Their production time should also be increased from 6s to 9s, so you need more castles to spam and the attack of elite Karambits will be 8 again, as it used to be at the begining of WK. These 2 changes would increase the value of a single karambit (you have less units, but similar damage output) and make them therefore worse vs ranged units, something that ppl were complaining about for long time. Also karambits will stay useful in mid/late imp, when you have enough castles to produce them. Karambits probly one of the hardest unts to balance out.
Portugese:
- Feitorias take up 10 population instead of 20
- Feitorias create 0.5 wood/s, 0.8 food/s, 0.75 gold/s, 0.25 stone/s instead of 0.8 wood/s, 0.8 food/s, 0.45 gold/s, 0.25 stone/s
- Feitoria HP halved from 5200 to 2600
As long as there is wood on the map, Feitorias are completly useless. They have a value of like 6-7 pop, but cost you 20. They should only cost like 10 pop, give you a little more gold (0.75 gold/s equals 1.5 relics) and a bit less wood to make them not too strong on maps with barely any wood. Also their HP should be reduced to make them less unkillable. With this gather-rates feitorias would start to pay off after 10 mins and be a viable lategame option in 1v1s and TGs with bad tradeline
Saracens:
- cavalry units move 15% faster, but they lose husbandry
- reduce elite mame frame delay as much as possible
I have heard, that ppl were discussing about giving saracens faster archers, but imo faster cavalry would be fitting way more: This civ has all ups for hussar, camel, cavalry archer and a cavalry UU, they only lack cheva/paladin, for me it's clearly a cavalry civ. Faster moving scouts would also be helpful for chasing down scouts/archers or just exploring faster. Their CA would be slightly better, especially in early castle. As flank Saracens have always been okish, they have arbs + siege ram, also the +2 vs buildings is quite nice. Giving them faster cavalry would make them way better as pkt, where they still suck due to no decent eco bonus + no chevas.
Koreans:
- archery range units move 15% faster (comparable to the speed of rattan archers atm)
- War Wagon framedelay reduced to 5 from 10 (5 is what mangudais or archers have atm)
I also heard in latest Talk of the Empire that ppl were discussing about -15% wood discount for all military units and i think thats quite OP for lategame. I would prefer giving them faster archery range units, so you finally have something else than towers with this civ. The micro potential with the civ would be huge and everybody would rather play around with faster archers/skirms/CA/HC than boring towers. To make them a bit better as pkt (since they're probly the worst pkt civ atm), i would decrease the farmedelay for WWs, to make it less awkward to micro them. Also faster moving xbows could be a nice option as pkt
Teutons:
- get husbandry
- TKs move with 0.85 speed instead of 0.7 (same speed as battle eles without husbandry)
I would give this civ more mobility. It's probably very controversional, but i would give them husbandry so teut kts have less trouble vs microed mass xbows. Also i would increase the base speed of TKs to the base speed of battle eles. TKs are so, so rarely useful. They're the most expensive infantry UU by far. They die hard vs ranged units and if you have cavalry or eagles you can just avoid them and go for opponent's economy, they only can work in push with mass siege. Increasing their speed could help making them better vs raiding and more useful for defending. Why exactly the speed of a battle ele? It's still slower than normal infantry (champs are 0.9, halbs 1) and i experienced that battle eles have just sufficient speed to deal with kt floods, so why not.
Mong:
- reduce elite mangu frame delay as much as possible
With WK there have been introduced so many civs with good any mangudai units (imp camels, cheap camels, imp skirms, battle eles, rattan archers, camel archers, genitours...) and good eco bonuses that even the old aoc mangus wouldnt be OP anymore. Cosidering the slow production, the fact that you lack fully upgradeable early imp units and mongol's mediocre economy in castleage/imp, reducing the frame delay as much as possible would be reasonable.
Viet:
- Viet need some eco bonus probably. Personally i also dislike their rattan archers, they kind feel useless with their low range, low HP, mediocre attack and the fact that you already have cheap impskirms vs enemy archers. Maybe they could get +1 attack, i dont know.
In general:
- demo rafts base attack reduced to 25, but gain 75 attack bonus vs ships
- higher base sling tax like 100% (your ally only receives 50% of the resources you sent) to make feudal sling impossible, but keeping the possibility of slinging like 100 emergency stone/wood.I highly dislike how demo rafts can one hit every unit in feudal except the one they're supposed to counter. This change is mainly to make archers/scouts/kts less vulnerable on hibrid maps vs feudal demos.
It's probably quite useless to write all this, but maybe some of this ideas will be realised indirectly.
pretty nice ideas overall but u forgot about removing halbs from the gameOkay firstly I don't feel Indians fishermen bonus needs a nerf, it's like such a niche bonus as it is and if the bonus is that good then they would be better on El Dorado or Decentring but in fact Chinese is miles better. And Indians rely on this bonus in dry river/valley maps so I'm not a fan of the nerf. As far as vill discount goes sure I don't mind it going back to original AOF style.
As for Goths, I'm okay with the Infantry bonus applying in dark age but if 35% is OP than maybe 20% as a starting figure will be alright. personally I think 35% is fine since we live in times where Goth maa rush gets no love if you only make 3 in dark age needless to say too need 3 on gold because of how fast you make the 3 militia. And then need the 40g required for maa. So I'm fine with the discount fully applying but if not then 20% dark age seems 100% reasonable. As for thumb ring, don't think it's necessary unless you plan to go CA.
Malay buff is okay I suppose.
Agree on Slavs nerf, definitely needed. I also think elite boyar needs 15 base attack, it's the only land UU that has 0 attack bonuses just like a Knight and it's basically a more expensive cavalier with 9 melee armour max which doesn't help vs the bonus of halb/Mameluke/camels which still eat them for breakfast. Boyars need something to make them actually good to use, many pro's and casters seem to not like them for some reason.
Saracens: please don't let this apply in dark age. Feudal onwards, sure then Saracens scrush can be pretty sick. Saracens would also have the most civ bonuses of any civ 11. I also advocate giving them shipwright, would help them a ton on water.
Koreans. Might seem farfetched but I want them to have the final cav armour up and/or blast furnace since bloodlines was not a popular option for them. But even then I don't care what this civ gets, the cheaper wood military sounds broken for nomad like games though they would get cheaper fire galleys than everyone else wood wise. Gold is really no issue. Fast moving archers is a great bonus though but would it apply to just archers? Archers and skirms? or all archery range units ? Personally I'm cool for all, or just foot archers idm. Idk if free tower ups should require a university also?
Teutons, I used to vote yes for husbandry but it ruins their civ identity so now I no longer agree with this. Teutons still have other solid options and are among the arena/bf favourites still. Perhaps melee armour on Infantry would be nice and thumb ring and if it's not too farfetched give them bracer but -1 crenellations range. Else Teutons really need no change.
Mongols
Mangudai are still beasts, they are still made and they are still a strong team game UU, still if they get a frame delay drop then I'm okay with 3-4 as long as mams get 3 delay too, also I feel 85g for mams is expensive and create kinda slow so maybe 80g and -2s creation for elite. I'm also a fan of +10hp camels/mams and zealotry giving the other 20+hp and zealotry being more cheaper since the most formidable unit of aoc is a mere joke in WK COz by the the time you can make them saracen is probably gg.
The general changes seem okay.
I'll add a few extra
Change Magyar team bonus to archer range units +2 LOS
Give elite conq +10hp and reduce upgrade by -200f/-200g and potentially drop trade bonus down to 20%. Let donkey monk carry relics as long as once it's picked up it moves as monk speed with fervour. Missionaries are extra weak to spearmen so that's 2 trash units + eagles it's weak to so why not.
Let Japanese team bonus apply to all ships not just galleys. Why would anyone be against this?
Logistica and Elite Cataphract upgrade should be cheaper. As much as @OrnLu528 would love byz bloodlines it might make them OP but I think Cataphracts need some love and have a quicker creation time. They re underrated vs imp camels and eagles tbh. Poor guy also wants Khmer thumb ring too.
Vikings chieftains should give +8 to +10 vs elephants for consistency as they do not get halberdier.
Italians dock techs should be 35% cheaper and Burmese monk techs also 35% cheaper. Half price dock techs and half price monk techs is really broken. Even if you have no heavy tatoh ship or heresy respectively. The latter civ already has free wood ups to help with all in smush + extra attack pikemens and the former civ has cheaper age up and cheap as chips fish ships.
Maybe controversial but maybe frank sc shouldn't get +20% hp in dark age? Conversely Mongol scouts in Castle age should get 30% hp boost too so they aren't broken in feudal.
Aside from viks I don't take credit for these ideas. Just what I have heard collective people say from streamers (not the chat).
i really like this change maybe not both techs but elite cata more cheaper sounds good and logistica still like alwaysLogistica and Elite Cataphract upgrade should be cheaper.
Just cuz you mentioned me @HyunAOP - to clarify:
I don't actually think Byzantines should have Bloodlines. That's just my chat being my chat. The only thing I'd like to see is them get free Town Patrol and a bit of a cost reduction on the Elite Cataphract upgrade.
Khmer on the other hand....definitely should have gotten Thumb Ring and not Arbalest, but I accept that I have lost that battle at this point 11
pretty nice ideas overall but u forgot about removing halbs from the game
Well, I don't know if it's credible or not, but I doubt MS will do a stupid move and ruin aoe 2 de, it's their last chance to bring the series back, also with all these tournaments sponsoring, I have a good hope for AOE 2 DE and AOE in general, my bet is they'll be announcing it in ecl lan final.