MoA3 LB R6 Pike vs Vodka Pt. 2

[teutonic_tanks]

What if an admin calls it and is wrong? This is comparable situation, isn't it? [...]
8 minutes should be enough, but you prefer to put ur attention into perfecting ur dark age, rather then looking out for a bugged map, I assume.

How is the situation comparable? The admin wrote the rules and decides if a map is bugged. The streamer is there to cast the games, not help the players or play referee.
Scouting your map is part of a perfect Dark Age. Players responsibility.

+1 you also have to decide before min 4, if you want to use a restart. The only problem are bugged sheep behind a forrest, since you can't see them and you might think that your enemy stole them.

 

[8th wonder]

I understand swissboy decision

At the same time I'm surprised pike didn't give vodka an aw because the chat changed nothing. On top of that how many times did nabs receive info from specs. Either from each other on teamspeak or from twitch chat giving advice to the streamer.

Just seems a little odd to me, especially considering Nadya's harsh response.

Anyway hopefully vodka is more careful in the future

shut ur ****ign mouth if u dont know ****

 

[Rein]

What if an admin calls it and is wrong? This is comparable situation, isn't it? [...]
8 minutes should be enough, but you prefer to put ur attention into perfecting ur dark age, rather then looking out for a bugged map, I assume.

How is the situation comparable? The admin wrote the rules and decides if a map is bugged. The streamer is there to cast the games, not help the players or play referee.
Scouting your map is part of a perfect Dark Age. Players responsibility.

A streamer can be informed by the admins and tested if he is capable of calling it. I know this requires another level of commitment from streamers, but I am sure some of them want to do this.
scouting is, checking it for buggs is not, but it is your tournament, I just share my opinion

In general, I think you are doing a great job!

 

[swissboyy]

Agree to disagree I guess.
Thanks for the commendation.

 

[Lavie_Head]

I understand swissboy decision

At the same time I'm surprised pike didn't give vodka an aw because the chat changed nothing. On top of that how many times did nabs receive info from specs. Either from each other on teamspeak or from twitch chat giving advice to the streamer.

Just seems a little odd to me, especially considering Nadya's harsh response.

Anyway hopefully vodka is more careful in the future

nabs have NEVER used any info from specs in any tournament
I don't think my response to what happened was in any way harsh. I have replyed to influensa, darkdevil and another guy disputing over what they said and expressing disagreement (in a polite way and with reason).
My reply to barles was a complitely stand-alone statement, it has only to do with my attitude towards him and his attitude towards me and my team.

 

[_Ra_]

I understand swissboy decision

At the same time I'm surprised pike didn't give vodka an aw because the chat changed nothing. On top of that how many times did nabs receive info from specs. Either from each other on teamspeak or from twitch chat giving advice to the streamer.

Just seems a little odd to me, especially considering Nadya's harsh response.

Anyway hopefully vodka is more careful in the future

nabs have NEVER used any info from specs in any tournament
I don't think my response to what happened was in any way harsh. I have replyed to influensa, darkdevil and another guy disputing over what they said and expressing disagreement (in a polite way and with reason).
My reply to barles was a complitely stand-alone statement, it has only to do with my attitude towards him and his attitude towards me and my team.

I can't say you've done it for a tournament , but you've done it in rated games for sure. I watched multiple streams of it...

If it's 'cheating' and it's not acceptable, it's the same across the board... Tournament or rated...

 

[IvIaximus]

How about we get back to old times and stop streaming every damn game in any tournament. Back then it was all about recorded games and it was fine. This goes for spectator thing as well. We need to somehow restrict that thing cuz it just ruins gaming. All stream and spectating does is supporting "passive aoc community" to stay passive. Any time I join stream or spec a game I feel like I am on some chatting website/facebook. People are not even watching game, they just sit there so they can talk to someone. Now how does aoc community benefit from that? I do not know. Truth, there are cases when you join as spectator when your team is playing or if there is some tournament finals but that is it.
I said it before and I will say it again. Spectator thing, streaming and lately trend of invite only highly paid tournaments with artifical clans is ruining aoc in long time. Yes I understand that it was meant to help community grow but situation in lobbies says otherwise. Not being able to get decent TG with my clan on weekends is just pathetic. Waiting 2 hours for one game (not counting drops/lags/assholes) is forcing people to play other games cuz who wants to spend one whole day sitting at PC to play 2 games lol(this happened many times).
Maybe I sound harsh but that is the way I see it. So restricting streams to only important final/dreamteam matches; restricting spectating for teammates/usersinfriendlist and supporting clan gaming is what will keep this game alive. Honestly CZ clan is only thing keeping me in game.. and that is coming from 1v1 player. To keep people playing you does not need money or audience, you need players who enjoy plaing this game. Fun is keyword here.

 

[Lavie_Head]

I understand swissboy decision

At the same time I'm surprised pike didn't give vodka an aw because the chat changed nothing. On top of that how many times did nabs receive info from specs. Either from each other on teamspeak or from twitch chat giving advice to the streamer.

Just seems a little odd to me, especially considering Nadya's harsh response.

Anyway hopefully vodka is more careful in the future

nabs have NEVER used any info from specs in any tournament
I don't think my response to what happened was in any way harsh. I have replyed to influensa, darkdevil and another guy disputing over what they said and expressing disagreement (in a polite way and with reason).
My reply to barles was a complitely stand-alone statement, it has only to do with my attitude towards him and his attitude towards me and my team.

I can't say you've done it for a tournament , but you've done it in rated games for sure. I watched multiple streams of it...

If it's 'cheating' and it's not acceptable, it's the same across the board... Tournament or rated...

that is a complitely different story and we would need a different topic if you want to discuss that.
If Vodka used spec cheat in a random rated game there would not be this topic here and the discusion would have never happened. Tournament and casual games are completely incomparable in this case.

How about we get back to old times and stop streaming every damn game in any tournament. Back then it was all about recorded games and it was fine. This goes for spectator thing as well. We need to somehow restrict that thing cuz it just ruins gaming. All stream and spectating does is supporting "passive aoc community" to stay passive. Any time I join stream or spec a game I feel like I am on some chatting website/facebook. People are not even watching game, they just sit there so they can talk to someone. Now how does aoc community benefit from that? I do not know. Truth, there are cases when you join as spectator when your team is playing or if there is some tournament finals but that is it.
I said it before and I will say it again. Spectator thing, streaming and lately trend of invite only highly paid tournaments with artifical clans is ruining aoc in long time. Yes I understand that it was meant to help community grow but situation in lobbies says otherwise. Not being able to get decent TG with my clan on weekends is just pathetic. Waiting 2 hours for one game (not counting drops/lags/********) is forcing people to play other games cuz who wants to spend one whole day sitting at PC to play 2 games lol(this happened many times).

i don't think streaming or spectating is the case, on the opposite they bring new people in
To me it is just that the number of inactive players is decreasing for many different reasons (family, work, studies), but is has little to do with streams. I think there are many average players in lobbies, but everyone tends to judge the activity by the activity of 18+ players. And there are so little of them, that when a bunch stops playing, the rest can't often get a game.
Anyway i guss there is no way to find out the actual reason unless you launch some huge survey or something like that.

 

[_Ra_]

They are not incomparable . If spec comments give an unfair advantage, then they are not allowed in both tournament and rated play. ("Competitive")

You are just choosing to ignore one and focus on the other for your team member benefit.

Someone else brought up China in NC finals but I didn't want to touch too much on that because of my teams involvement .

Point is help from specs is prominent and practiced by many teams in competitive play. It doesn't make it right, but it's a shame to single out Vodka. Note that I'm not saying the admin decision was wrong.

 

[JUDAS]

They are not incomparable . If spec comments give an unfair advantage, then they are not allowed in both tournament and rated play. ("Competitive")

You are just choosing to ignore one and focus on the other for your team member benefit.

Someone else brought up China in NC finals but I didn't want to touch too much on that because of my teams involvement .

Point is help from specs is prominent and practiced by many teams in competitive play. It doesn't make it right, but it's a shame to single out Vodka. Note that I'm not saying the admin decision was wrong.

They are different , but help from specs shouldnt be allowed in any case, the best is not streaming live if the tournament is going online only, and what Daredevil and Vodka did was: stream cheating, it has not other name.

 

[Fall]

They are not incomparable . If spec comments give an unfair advantage, then they are not allowed in both tournament and rated play. ("Competitive")

You are just choosing to ignore one and focus on the other for your team member benefit.

Someone else brought up China in NC finals but I didn't want to touch too much on that because of my teams involvement .

Point is help from specs is prominent and practiced by many teams in competitive play. It doesn't make it right, but it's a shame to single out Vodka. Note that I'm not saying the admin decision was wrong.

Spectator/stream cheating in rated games is not allowed, and if you have evidence of it (e.g. on a stream or recorded game message like in this case) then you can submit a complaint here and it will be reviewed: http://www.voobly.com/forum/view/559
Like most cases for complaints on voobly this needs to be submitted no later than 14 days after the match was played.

However that is separate. These issues are independent of one another - what NaBs have or have not done in a rated game has 0 impact on this case. Just because something may or may not have happened previously doesn't mean you never punish someone when you find a case where it definitely did happen.

So to clarify - this case is about Vodka receiving in game information from a friend of his watching the stream in his Master of Arena match. It is also about the fact that he continued to receive this information throughout the game, and throughout the next game, without taking any action himself (e.g. going DnD) or informing Pike or informing an admin. He waited to be discovered by people watching the recorded game.

Vodka has not been singled out, he has just been caught because of the use of the messenger showing up in the recorded game file, making it irrefutable. Like I said, feel free to report similar cases of spec/stream cheating where you have the recorded game file or stream vods for rated games and they will also be reviewed.

For the people saying Pike should have offered the AW, that obviously wasn't an option. Whatever else happened, Vodka was not going to be allowed to advance off the back of those games where stream cheating occurred. Out of the possible outcomes for Vodka, this was the most lenient (and imo the fairest for this particular case...) as it still allowed him the possibility to win the set and advance.

 

[DarkDevil]

i think no one here is understanding that vodka was just playing his tournament, it was just me that i was bored and i started writing to him things to support his moral, because i have no suggestions for him, he plays way better than me in 1v1.

he cant put me on do not disturb because we are friend, he would never do that.

how can u people ever think that vodka has some fault in all this, its just unbelievable.


one day i wake up, i make the mistake to write random things to a friend because im bored and the next week there are 100 messages on a topic talking like if we both downloaded cheating program to hack the game, really lol its just a guy that did a mistake (me lol)

let vodka out of this atleast 11

 

[Siesta_]

wp vodka
maybe darkdevil was present in the games vs liam too? 11

 

[teutonic_tanks]

i think no one here is understanding that vodka was just playing his tournament, it was just me that i was bored and i started writing to him things to support his moral, because i have no suggestions for him, he plays way better than me in 1v1.

he cant put me on do not disturb because we are friend, he would never do that.

how can u people ever think that vodka has some fault in all this, its just unbelievable.


one day i wake up, i make the mistake to write random things to a friend because im bored and the next week there are 100 messages on a topic talking like if we both downloaded cheating program to hack the game, really lol its just a guy that did a mistake (me lol)

let vodka out of this atleast 11

welcome to AoCzone

 

[Shmolagin]

i think no one here is understanding that vodka was just playing his tournament, it was just me that i was bored and i started writing to him things to support his moral, because i have no suggestions for him, he plays way better than me in 1v1.

he cant put me on do not disturb because we are friend, he would never do that.

how can u people ever think that vodka has some fault in all this, its just unbelievable.


one day i wake up, i make the mistake to write random things to a friend because im bored and the next week there are 100 messages on a topic talking like if we both downloaded cheating program to hack the game, really lol its just a guy that did a mistake (me lol)

let vodka out of this atleast 11

The point is that he could have at least asked you to stop. By your logic someone could steal a bunch of money, give it to their friend and the friend would get to keep it because he technically wasn't the guy who stole it.

 

[Fall]

i think no one here is understanding that vodka was just playing his tournament, it was just me that i was bored and i started writing to him things to support his moral, because i have no suggestions for him, he plays way better than me in 1v1.

he cant put me on do not disturb because we are friend, he would never do that.

how can u people ever think that vodka has some fault in all this, its just unbelievable.


one day i wake up, i make the mistake to write random things to a friend because im bored and the next week there are 100 messages on a topic talking like if we both downloaded cheating program to hack the game, really lol its just a guy that did a mistake (me lol)

let vodka out of this atleast 11

Yes like I said, I think most people realize this and it's why the games were just replayed instead of Vodka being DQ'd.

But you can't just completely leave it be either. There has to be an absolute 0 tolerance policy on anything like this in tournaments.

It's people coming in and getting all defensive about vodka and then forcing people to explain the admin decision that have made it into what it is 11, I'd guess both the players would prefer if the games had just been posted and left alone...

 

[DarkDevil]

i think no one here is understanding that vodka was just playing his tournament, it was just me that i was bored and i started writing to him things to support his moral, because i have no suggestions for him, he plays way better than me in 1v1.

he cant put me on do not disturb because we are friend, he would never do that.

how can u people ever think that vodka has some fault in all this, its just unbelievable.


one day i wake up, i make the mistake to write random things to a friend because im bored and the next week there are 100 messages on a topic talking like if we both downloaded cheating program to hack the game, really lol its just a guy that did a mistake (me lol)

let vodka out of this atleast 11

The point is that he could have at least asked you to stop. By your logic someone could steal a bunch of money, give it to their friend and the friend would get to keep it because he technically wasn't the guy who stole it.

he did, but u cant see it in the rec because its not the rec of his life.

and someone said i was discussing about strategical things with him during the games, just to put something more on the fire here, but if u go to check we discussed only before the games, in the pre-chat game, its perfectly normal.

 

They are not incomparable . If spec comments give an unfair advantage, then they are not allowed in both tournament and rated play. ("Competitive")

You are just choosing to ignore one and focus on the other for your team member benefit.

Someone else brought up China in NC finals but I didn't want to touch too much on that because of my teams involvement .

Point is help from specs is prominent and practiced by many teams in competitive play. It doesn't make it right, but it's a shame to single out Vodka. Note that I'm not saying the admin decision was wrong.

+1

 

The topic at hand is quite pointless by now; what's done is done. Just like in every other tourney where a problem comes up, add something in the rules until it becomes as long as the Paypal Terms of Agreement

19 Jan 2016, 15:15 GMT » MadMax wrote

Spoiler

How about we get back to old times and stop streaming every damn game in any tournament. Back then it was all about recorded games and it was fine. This goes for spectator thing as well. We need to somehow restrict that thing cuz it just ruins gaming. All stream and spectating does is supporting "passive aoc community" to stay passive. Any time I join stream or spec a game I feel like I am on some chatting website/facebook. People are not even watching game, they just sit there so they can talk to someone. Now how does aoc community benefit from that? I do not know. Truth, there are cases when you join as spectator when your team is playing or if there is some tournament finals but that is it.
I said it before and I will say it again. Spectator thing, streaming and lately trend of invite only highly paid tournaments with artifical clans is ruining aoc in long time. Yes I understand that it was meant to help community grow but situation in lobbies says otherwise. Not being able to get decent TG with my clan on weekends is just pathetic. Waiting 2 hours for one game (not counting drops/lags/********) is forcing people to play other games cuz who wants to spend one whole day sitting at PC to play 2 games lol(this happened many times).

Even though it' may seem a bit off-topic from this thread, I agree 100% with you. It's a problem that won't be realized for a long time though (or not in time). I've played probably as long as you have (back in GR days 11) and I can remember voobly in 2009-2010 and it's much different than now. Good features/tools, but bad application of them. That's all I'll touch on for now.

As for spec cheating, as Ra said, probably every team has done it before. (why would you not when it's so easy to do and $ is potentially involved)
This is an RTS games guys, meaning Real-Time where every extra bit of info you get about the map layout is vital. This is not LoL where the map is the same everytime.

Dark age = 10 minutes, spec delay = 1:30...hello? :roll:

You need to at least have it at 5-6 minute spec delay so that both players have a chance to scout each others maps before spec/stream starts; and that doesn't even solve all the issues.

 

[sweetjones]

nabs have NEVER used any info from specs in any tournament

you should check ts everytime one of the nabs plays a tournament game of any relevance, they might be violating the rules :lol:

true, but thing here is that nabs don't have any need to fall back upon cheating, they are among top-ranked teams with skills and talent

May I expand on this to suggest a tier system?

2100-2200: spec cheat allowed via voobly messenger
2200-2300: spec cheat allowed via teamspeak
2300+: map hacks allowed

 

[SMB360]

You need to at least have it at 5-6 minute spec delay so that both players have a chance to scout each others maps before spec/stream starts; and that doesn't even solve all the issues.

Me and Milmano were talking about this with Taff the other day due to our de-syncing problems whilst spec'ing / game running at different speeds for us even if we are using speed controls properly. Taff says anything over the standard 1.5 min spec delay can cause spectators to start de-syncing with each other (it's due to connection with host who is running spectator server from their pc/internet), so if the game is being streamed by more than one commentator it's not very consistently viable. Stream delay is probably way better than spec delay to prevent stream cheating. Obviously, spec cheating is a separate issue to that.

 

[LB10]

when you play vs vodka and darkdevil in a TG ops:

 

[sw_]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug68UjcnW1E
:D

 

[argus_panoptes]

nice topic..

I have missed reading these big stupid arguments where everyone writes long, paragraph-phobic posts but then dont read everyone elses comments. Long live aoczone :D