JetStream Cup #4

[theHand]

Also I encourage all players to come out and play in the bigger tournaments, my opinion is that while winning is not likely there's a lot to be learned playing higher level players. We also do a top vs bottom draw so you either get a really strong match to learn from like a 1900+ player (rec games will show fun build orrders i think) and/or you can play pretty competitive in first round with middles groups all probably between 100 pts of each other.

While you're correct that you learn the most playing stronger players, I'd rather learn in practice games. If I enter a tourney, I prefer to at least be competitive. Plus there's a cap on the gap between two players, probably 200 elo max at the amateur level, up to which you can learn from the loss. Above this cap, it's more brutal than educational. I've played a 19xx or two, and I can assure you I learned next to nothing, and it wasn't fun either...!

What's a top v bottom draw, btw? Where everyone is seeded, so the top players face the bottom players in the first round? This is obviously best for the tournament, but not really a selling point for weaker players.

 

[Helpimupdn]

While you're correct that you learn the most playing stronger players, I'd rather learn in practice games. If I enter a tourney, I prefer to at least be competitive. Plus there's a cap on the gap between two players, probably 200 elo max at the amateur level, up to which you can learn from the loss. Above this cap, it's more brutal than educational. I've played a 19xx or two, and I can assure you I learned next to nothing, and it wasn't fun either...!

What's a top v bottom draw, btw? Where everyone is seeded, so the top players face the bottom players in the first round? This is obviously best for the tournament, but not really a selling point for weaker players.

Yeah there a bunch of different ways to seed a draw, but the norm is to protect the best.

In regards to learning, in my experience it's all about getting the most out of every game. I've learned from many Olympians that tournament settings are the best learning experiences regardless of opponent, because it's the best place to practice strong mentality. Most players fold under pressure regardless of talent, build orders, or whatever, but in tournament settings where there is less pressure you can really learn a lot about how to stay positive and objective minded. I built a solid foundation in table tennis and martial arts with this mindset. You may not see it while playing or even right after, but it's those little things you learn that really go a long way in building solid skills to play well. I once spoke to a world champion in a sport and one of the things he mentioned was that the worst regret about his career was that he won so much that he essentially neglected to learn from his matches and it was because of this that he never got anything more than a bronze at the Olympics which was his ultimate goal. So I truly believe that you should be able to learn from each match win or lose and when you stop doing this you stop improving.

 

[theHand]

Yeah there a bunch of different ways to seed a draw, but the norm is to protect the best.

In regards to learning, in my experience it's all about getting the most out of every game. I've learned from many Olympians that tournament settings are the best learning experiences regardless of opponent, because it's the best place to practice strong mentality. Most players fold under pressure regardless of talent, build orders, or whatever, but in tournament settings where there is less pressure you can really learn a lot about how to stay positive and objective minded. I built a solid foundation in table tennis and martial arts with this mindset. You may not see it while playing or even right after, but it's those little things you learn that really go a long way in building solid skills to play well. I once spoke to a world champion in a sport and one of the things he mentioned was that the worst regret about his career was that he won so much that he essentially neglected to learn from his matches and it was because of this that he never got anything more than a bronze at the Olympics which was his ultimate goal. So I truly believe that you should be able to learn from each match win or lose and when you stop doing this you stop improving.

A distinction has to be made between players looking to improve, and those exclusively playing for fun. In terms of growing your tourneys, especially for amateurs, the second group will most likely provide more growth. They're unlikely to sign up to events in which they know they're going to get clapped.

Even for the first group, in terms of skill acquisition, while it's true that it's important to get the most out of every match, and it's imperative to learn from your losses, it does not follow that you learn the most by facing overwhelmingly stronger opposition. Optimal skill acquisition is a gradual process of marginal gains, and the ideal opponents are those slightly superior to you. You want to have your weaknesses exposed, and your strengths tested. Far superior players don't need to take advantage of your weaknesses; they can take advantage of your strengths! You don't want to be blown off the court, as you'll learn nothing in the process.

I assume you meant there is 'more' pressure in tournament settings, not less. This is true, but you still get the benefit of practising a strong mindset when you face players of similar skill levels. In fact, being crushed by much stronger opposition will only dent the confidence of many players.

There's of course the third perspective to consider. The vastly superior player is going to get nothing from the noob-bashing experience, other than advancing in the tourney. Some might not consider it worthwhile.

Don't get me wrong, any tourneys for amateurs are better than none, and as I said before, are greatly appreciated. But, when possible, elo brackets are the way to go, IMHO.

 

[Helpimupdn]

As far as players that are only playing for fun I dont see them joining these tournaments let alone having a rating. There are 100K+ players on other platforms that will never play on voobly because they dont know it exists. My presumption is that when you have a rated match history your aim is to improve or at least estimate where your skill level is.

Good players actually do learn from lower level matches. Ive spoken to mulitple 2K players who will watch their rec after a match to be sure they werent making mistakes and to better improve scouting etc.

I also know some olympians who during their competitive years would be around 2700 and play and practice with 1300 players just to give them consistency in their basics (basically making sure they never missed an easy play).

Again these are just my opinions but I think for a 1 day format it should be clear these are definitely for players to have fun in.

 

[theHand]

As far as players that are only playing for fun I dont see them joining these tournaments let alone having a rating. There are 100K+ players on other platforms that will never play on voobly because they dont know it exists. My presumption is that when you have a rated match history your aim is to improve or at least estimate where your skill level is.

Good players actually do learn from lower level matches. Ive spoken to mulitple 2K players who will watch their rec after a match to be sure they werent making mistakes and to better improve scouting etc.

I also know some olympians who during their competitive years would be around 2700 and play and practice with 1300 players just to give them consistency in their basics (basically making sure they never missed an easy play).

Again these are just my opinions but I think for a 1 day format it should be clear these are definitely for players to have fun in.

Players who play for fun are not by definition weak. Some players who only play for fun can crush many who are seriously looking to improve. Most players will go through a phase of looking to improve until they hit a ceiling, beyond which they experience diminishing improvement returns. It's only an educated guess, but I imagine the majority of players on Voobly are playing for fun. They will have a rated match history because these games are the most fun for many. They also do not need tournaments to have an accurate understanding of what their skill is. Normal rated games will provide sufficient information.

Again, it's not that good players can't learn from playing substantially weaker opposition, it''s just that they will learn far more by playing at least roughly equal opposition. From a pedagogical perspective, it's highly inadvisable and inefficient to play much weaker opponents. Recs are not exclusive to games against inferior opponents; they're far more useful when you've faced tough opposition. The fact you mentioned, that pressure is a great teacher, also detracts from the utility of facing far weaker opponents: there is no pressure whatsoever.

I'm not sure which Olympians you spoke to, but not all competitive endeavours are comparable. An equivalent 2k7 golfer may get some great practice in versus a 1300. I can assure you that not a single 2k6 AoEII player would gain any benefit at all playing a 1300. There'd be more benefit playing the AI in comparison.

I completely agree with you, in that these 1 day formats are primarily for fun, which is why I can only recommend elo brackets as the way forward, when possible.

 

[Helpimupdn]

Congrats to The_Dragonstar, ACCM, Mopckou_oryp4uk, & King_Marv for making it to the final 4. We had 17 register and only 12 show up, not quite sure what happened, but let's try and find some consistency. If you can please contact me and let me know you won't be coming to the event that helps greatly. I don't want to cancel events last minute if I can help it.

 

[theHand]

Think you need to take greater advantage of Discord. A lot of the AoE community's organising also goes on there. Either your own one or the existing ones. For example, what happened with the 2nd Mini Royale on Friday? I know only 5 of us signed up, but I couldn't see any cancellation notice here or on the JetStream discord. Starting after midnight European time was always going to be a hard sell though.

If there was an active single discord location, it probably would have been easier to stay in touch with the 5 no shows from today's tournament too. Either way, there's good noise coming from Hera's discord, even if it's just the more helpful of his mods on his behalf right now. But I see the Mini Royale has been pushed back to the 26th. Come introduce yourself in the discord, explain how your events work to the unwashed plebs like me, and you'll get a lot more sign-ups by then. They don't bite, much... 11

 

[Helpimupdn]

If you read the battlefy it says follow on twitter for the latest updates. I posted the cancellation there because there isnt really anywhere else to reach everyone in a single location. Ive also posted in just about all of the discords I have. AoE, T90, Springs

 

[theHand]

Ah I see, twitter's not a great place for AoE as far as I know. I don't use it either (in 2019 ikr, gasp! 11). The AoE discord is also ironically not a hub for the community at all. T90's and Spring's discord are great though, they just happen to be two of the few I'm not in. Surely the JetStream discord would be the first place to post updates however, seeing as they're actually JetStream tourneys? This would also encourage players to join there, and it could become the place to reach everyone easily, as a single communication point is definitely needed.

 

[Helpimupdn]

Ah I see, twitter's not a great place for AoE as far as I know. I don't use it either (in 2019 ikr, gasp! 11). The AoE discord is also ironically not a hub for the community at all. T90's and Spring's discord are great though, they just happen to be two of the few I'm not in. Surely the JetStream discord would be the first place to post updates however, seeing as they're actually JetStream tourneys? This would also encourage players to join there, and it could become the place to reach everyone easily, as a single communication point is definitely needed.

Ive had some issues with the discord messaging. I find most people mute the servers so they never see the notifications. Twitter is easier for me as I travel a lot for video shoots so I can more easily manage data on twitter than discord. Im apart of a ton of tournaments in various games so I have a really messy discord app. I think once players start to get used to the tourneys they will check twitch and twitter as I will have updates on both. Plus Id prefer to drive traffic there anyways.

 

[theHand]

Ive had some issues with the discord messaging. I find most people mute the servers so they never see the notifications. Twitter is easier for me as I travel a lot for video shoots so I can more easily manage data on twitter than discord. Im apart of a ton of tournaments in various games so I have a really messy discord app. I think once players start to get used to the tourneys they will check twitch and twitter as I will have updates on both. Plus Id prefer to drive traffic there anyways.

Ah ok. I mean if people mute the servers they'll still see visual notifications and DMs? And players don't need to be made aware immediately, but they just need somewhere to go to find out information when they need it. Twitch would be fine, pretty sure almost all AoE players are on twitch, but how would you post updates there? In the description at the bottom of your channel? Also be aware the commnity can be mildly resistant to change, might be easier to change to fit the community, rather than vice versa. But props for the ambition and gl!