ECL hype issue

Oct 18, 2010
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#1
I think there was a similar topic like this but i couldnt find it so im creating a new one.

For me , a big tournament should achieve some key points for AOC.
1) Getting more activity on Voobly
2) Creating hype before the games
3) Getting high-level and high-intensity recorded games
4) A lot of discussion after the games; about player performances, civ and map choices, also point table ( just for ECL)

I feel like we are getting only good recorded games with ECL. For me the best tournament ever was WCL 7 in AOC. That times there were no discord or twitch so all discussions were going on this site and that was creating a lot of hype and drama. Of course different times and different situations. But still even BOA had a lot of excitement even for its first rounds.

I understand Zak's decision about casting recorded-games. But that decision is killing all hype viper,daut,tatoh,mbl,nicov,heartt could have create on their streams.
So my suggestion is Zak should make a show (like Nili's talk of the empire) on EscapeAoe one day before the games to talk about teams civs and other choices just for the preparation of the audience. Also one day after the games to discuss about games. He can do it with other casters or some pro players which are not participating.
These days those tournaments are like TV shows. So like how tv shows make trailers and other stuff to hype about it, we should do some things like that. For other points im not sure what to do.

So am i the only one feeling like it? Any other suggestions to improve the tournament?
 

GermanyAthasos

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#2
It doesn't even have to be a day before the games are streamed.
They could do a map and civ overview before the streams and a discussion about the games after each game (It kinda happens whenever Zak yoins in between games)
I do agree that there could be a little more than just the cast of the games, but weather or not that is possible is a totally different question.
 

Unknownmangojuice

New Member
May 8, 2016
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#3
I understand Zak's decision about casting recorded-games. But that decision is killing all hype viper,daut,tatoh,mbl,nicov,heartt could have create on their streams.
Totally agree.

There is more to a tournament than just casting quality games.

None of the players is talking on stream about ECL or hyping it up before the games (because they can't without spoilers). As we don't know when the games are played, we can't even wish them good luck.

The casters know it's not live so they are noticeably less hyped (just compare them casting live tournaments vs ECL). You never hear statements about a team's psychology ("they're down two games, they need to collect themselves and talk about a strategy before they start the next game", "should they swap in player X") or speculations about their civs (because 14). Instead it's this anti-hype "when you're ready we can jump into the games". Downtime between the games might be stressful for casters, but it is actually a good thing (getting hyped for the match but also for taking a short break).

As the casters don't seem to interact with chat much, there's not much point in watching the games live. But when watching the recorded games one is able to skip over boring parts and then its not the same, and that also ruins hype.

It's not like there are no technical problems with watching recs lol.

We don't know how much the players were training before the match, so it's impossible to do speculations about whether they're in shape or not. You could notice how the viper/vivi games had much more hype just because the "recs are fresh from today" and we were able to talk about vivi's IRL situation (too bad the games were garbage).

I don't know how to fix those issues. In my opinion it would be much better if the games would be forced to be played not more than 2 days before the stream and having the finals live.
And for the time between the games, it should be used better, possibly with a script of talking points.
 

PeruHearttt

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#4
While it's impossible to cast the games live in AoE's current state, I definitely think it is possible to do more in terms of hyping up matches and taking advantage of the exposure the event brings to the game. A show like mentioned is an interesting idea, although it'd require some changes to how the matches are being executed ATM. Similar to NAC's civ and map drafting, I think it would be interesting to have a top player talk about his opinion on the matches for the next day, only spoiling civs and maps would be enough to create some kind of speculation as to what could happen and how certain maps could favour one team or the other due to their playstyle.
I've suggested to them in the past to create a topic on aoezone right after a match is over and advertise it on their livestream, it'd surely help promote this website and create more discussion after matches.
 

Irelanddooog

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Mar 3, 2018
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#5
Yep. ECL starting this weekend and I've seen so little mention of it. As has been stated before, the recs format kills the hype, which in turn must hurt the viewer numbers. Personally I haven't even bothered watching ECL live because it's casters reheating recs so I watch the VODs instead and trim the fat off.

Streamers can't/won't talk about ECL other than the occasional partial mention and don't want to answer any chat questions in case of spoilers. There's no cross-team trash talk rivalry going on. No watching rated games during the week, knowing that some of the same players will face one another later that week, seeing how sharp their game is at that moment in time.

I assume there's map drafting but that isn't shown on the Escape stream right? Would be a good idea to show it so viewers can at least speculate what a team is planning what civs they will pick etc. BOA showed drafts and it was quite an exciting part of the build up.

I remember in the final of BOA, which were good games though quite one sided, listening to the TyRant team being interviewed after their win and they' were all buzzing, cracking jokes and looking back that was really fun to listen to. In ECL, Secret won the 4v4 tourney last month and that was it. There was no week build up of anticipation because viewers didn't know the finalists until that day. Also no interviews since it was old news and the winning players excitement had probably long worn off by then.

Also, are competing teams/players allowed to watch the recs of their next opponents' previous games so that they can adjust their strats accordingly? I doubt it but I could be wrong.

Basically I think recs format sucks a lot of the fun out. Sure, it'd take twice as long to cast and more days on top, but ECL would be far more fun and memorable.
 

CanadaNuclearPasta

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#6
Yeah, compared to BOA or NAC this tournament is a big let down in the hype department. I was so excited to see what the BOA Finale was gonna be like, everyone had all kinds of predictions based off the civ and map drafts. NAC was in a similar position, and we even got expert players to comment on the matches in real time. I tuned in live for both events as often as I could.

ECL should be hyped like the massive event it is. It's a year-long $60,000 tournament sponsored by Microsoft, with the best current players in the game competing for a chance at a LAN event. This is one of the biggest things in AoE in the past couple years, and it deserves to be hyped. I get why it's being done the way it is, it's not nearly as much of a toll on casters or players having to set up times and dealing with technical difficulties. But it has really killed my excitement for the tournament. I feel no need to tune in live, I'll just catch up as it's released on YouTube.


Also, are competing teams/players allowed to watch the recs of their next opponents' previous games so that they can adjust their strats accordingly? I doubt it but I could be wrong.
IIRC during the Europe East 4v4 Finale it was said that players could view the quarter-final games but semi-finals were off limits. So Sy were able to see Secret's games versus aM, but not versus LoS. I could be wrong about that, but that's how I remember hearing it, should go check.
 
Sep 24, 2012
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#7
Pretty much agree with all the above comments.

Recs are a necessary evil here. Currently, a tournament the size of ECL wouldn't be possible live. Even with all the downsides of casting recs, viewer numbers are still very good (~3-5k average). I'm sure Zak and the rest of Escape have been keeping a close eye on analytics and have some more tricks up their sleeves.

That being said, I think ECL deserves more promotion. It feels like all the hype for the matches is confined to the Saturdays ECL is casted. Probably because we're in a weird time where most interaction happens on streams instead of aoczone. Since players can't talk about results, lots of the hype talk is gone.

There's so much analysis that hasn't been done. I'd love to see a discussion stream and more forum posts and other media promoting the tournament.
 

United KingdomFall

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#9
I also enjoy playing and watching SC2, and when there's an actual live event this weekend of course I won't watch a vod stream.

But yes, the fact that no one can discuss the tournament makes it seems like it isn't even happening. (For the record, it's quite obvious by the settings teams play in rated games when they are playing in their ECL teams whether they got through or not...)

In the current format, there is no point in watching ECL live, except for twitch chat watching the vod is an identical experience.
 

Franceedie

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#10
Under my feeling:

Memb done some rules in his tournaments with swissboyy that games must be played on week end, and iirc it never was a problem for any players or any teams, players who signed up agreed on the rules and by that agreed to play on week end. I really understand the reasons of why casting recs over doing it live, it’s clearly better on some aspects, but talking about hype rec just reduce hype a lot.

This is supposed to be the best tournament we have for very long time, we get new sponsors for this, new teams, practices, good prizes money , yet we don’t feel the hype, also as players we can’t speak about our games which is normal to not spoile, but when we finally can and recs are finally casted it’s sometimes two or three weeks after we played them, we don’t even remember the games good or have sentiment or feeling about the games or want to talk at all because it’s outdated and not in our mind anymore, and playing it when it’s streamed live we feel the pressure we know people watch us it had a lot of excitation and pressure while streamed rec week later we got over our lost or our win and have less sentiment.

I don’t think doing some show one day before will hype getting the hype ECL deserve. I think we are still small enough to request players to play on week end and not on week day without paying them for it, I don’t know but maybe Zak coulf have ask the teams if that was an issue for the teams to only play on week end, or if sometimes a team really can’t play on week end then in this case would cast the rec of it.

The main reason for casting rec are:
-games must be casted on week end to have better viewers numbers ( 100% legit and understandable)
- avoiding the fp/drop issues that aren’t good for the viewers (although I can tell we didn’t suffer of it much, I think robo who spect all the games can tell or not if there was many fp or drop issues)
- can’t force players to only schedule on week end because they aren’t getting paid for it so we can’t tell them to take a day off just for AoE (yet in all previous tournament like 80% of the games was always in week end, and memb even made some rule about it on his tournament which worked out very nice)

I think they should reconsider casting rec, not only for the ones who complain about recs being streamed but for their goals aswell, as the hype is clearly under what ECL deserve to have, we should hit crazy viewers number on twitch etc, it’s a amazing tournament and surely the one I am the most devoted to and take the most seriously ever. No matter if it still rec streamed and not live the tournament is and will still be very great, just not as hyped as it deserve
 
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Czech RepublicOvenka

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#11
I have to say that games from this tournament are really great, but I have no idea when they were played or should be played, thats quite crazy. One day I just come to AoEZone and I see there are recs from games so I download them and watch them, but thats all and I have no idea whats going on next days 11. Streaming games live would be much more better, we have a lot of streamers so starting time shouldnt be more problem I guess and. I can imagine those thousands people watching finals of each series live and feeling nervous who gonna win, with recs you just click on spoiler or watch recs in one hour, because I dont like watching streamed recs (only those old ones like NIli did).
 

GermanyAthasos

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#12
I am fine with recorded games, as it really seems difficult to get a decent scedule with all those timezones.
But the final should always be played live.
We can have semifinals recs casted on saturday, then all viewers know who is in the final, the teams and players can hype a little better on their social media and we are all excited for the final on the next day.
Depending on who plays 14 GMT +/- 2 would still be the ideal time to play those games.
Players who want to compete in this tournament would have to make sure they have time for every sunday from 12GMT - 18GMT.
We could start earlier when chinese players are involved and later if people from Brazil/Canada etc. are involved.

Also some sort of Draft defently has to be shown before the games start.
Don't show the maps all right away, show them one after another how they were picked ...
 
Last edited:
Mar 20, 2015
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#13
Edit: I have attached a short review PDF of Europe East to give people and idea of where we are at right now-

I would like to hear more suggestions on what to do-
We have said it before but: if we said that the games were live and played in a secret lobby then nobody would have any idea that the games are recs. why is it impossible to speculate and talk about the matches? All of the info is available.

We have the http://Escape.gg website where lots of info can be found. We also have social media where we post about upcoming games- http://Facebook.com/EscapeAoE http://twitter.com/EscapeAoE

I like the idea of having a talk show on the Sunday, to recap the games. That’s the best suggestion I have seen so far.

For doing live games. There’s a thread already where I have a schedule of how the week would look, you say there would be more viewers but would there really be? When the games are played at the following times:

Tuesday 12:00 - Yo vs Zuppi.
Wednesday 19:30 - TheViper vs Melkor. (Scheduled at 19:00, just 30 mins before it was played).
Thursday 12:00 - CooL vs DauT.
Saturday 12:00 TheViper vs Vivi -Final. (Scheduled the day before it was played).
 

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Jun 13, 2018
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#14
@ZeroEmpires : for me, the problem is, that the streams are so far apart (which is uderstandable, because of course the actual games need to be played). Currently, I watch one of the streams and then I can completely forget about the tourney for two weeks or even a month or so. So I think that having streams more often (even group stage one saturday and semis/finals the next saturday) would go a long way to make people feel like they are more inside the action. Which would of course create an incentive to keep an eye on the twitch channel or check AoE Zone.

EDIT: I screwed up a little bit, in that my suggestion is actually already implemented 11. But still, more frequent streams would be good IMO.
 
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GermanyAthasos

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#15
@ZeroEmpires : for me, the problem is, that the streams are so far apart (which is uderstandable, because of course the actual games need to be played). Currently, I watch one of the streams and then I can completely forget about the tourney for two weeks or even a month or so. So I think that having streams more often (even group stage one saturday and semis/finals the next saturday) would go a long way to make people feel like they are more inside the action. Which would of course create an incentive to keep an eye on the twitch channel or check AoE Zone.

EDIT: I screwed up a little bit, in that my suggestion is actually already implemented 11. But still, more frequent streams would be good IMO.
I do like the idea, it could be possible to make streams shorter and add a second day. Having 2 games on saturday and 2 on sunday for the TG events first round and maybe semis on sturday and finals on sunday, it could also work.
This is just an idea to have "more streams" without actually having more screen time ...
 

United Nationsaoewc

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#16
Why don't we make a poll on that topic? Kappa

I really don't get why you guys struggle.

- 'Can't speculate bc we don't know who played who on which day?' That does not even make sense. Besides, you can speculate over literally everything...the whole point of speculation is assuming things while you don't have full information.
- 'Can't get hyped bc can't speculate' Dude, are you watching the games bc u want to see esports or bc of trash talk? If it's the latter, maybe MoA is the right tournament for you.

- 'Can't get hyped bc it's recorded games' - that's so wtf to me, I genuinely don't understand the logic behind that. To me, the worst experience in a 60k $ event would be tuning in to a live stream and either read 'Game paused/unpaused by [VNA]Bact' or hear the casters get nervous bc players/teams haven't arrived in time. And PLEASE don't try to tell me things like these wouldn't have happened in the past.
Plus, I can't even remotely understand how a rec-game that has never been played in front of an audience prior to the Escape streams could be less interesting to you than a live game. Sorry, but if you're really bothered by that one, it's on you guys.

ECL goes on for another, what, 10 months(?) and your biggest fear is that it doesn't get the hype it might deserve? To me, some of you sound more like helicopter dads than people who want to improve anything about the format for a reason.

And just for starters. It's on you to like or dislike things. So if you're not hyped yet, it's on you.
 

United Nationsaoewc

Active Member
Jul 6, 2018
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#17
@ZeroEmpires : for me, the problem is, that the streams are so far apart (which is uderstandable, because of course the actual games need to be played). Currently, I watch one of the streams and then I can completely forget about the tourney for two weeks or even a month or so. So I think that having streams more often (even group stage one saturday and semis/finals the next saturday) would go a long way to make people feel like they are more inside the action. Which would of course create an incentive to keep an eye on the twitch channel or check AoE Zone.

EDIT: I screwed up a little bit, in that my suggestion is actually already implemented 11. But still, more frequent streams would be good IMO.
The main reasons why the tournament has been scheduled this long is to a) enable organizations like Secret to get interested in the first place (10-12 months of guaranteed esport games, and therefore exposure to the brand 'Team Secret'), and b) to enable other people like Memb, Metal, (who plans USA Cup again?) etc. to make their own tournaments. Imagine just for a minute what it would mean for other streamers if there would be an ECL final every weekend (and then not only on saturdays, but even on sundays as well, as Athasos suggested).
 
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#18
i think it's better to watch recorded games. cuz there is a proper schedule and no delay between games. But i agree with the hype idea. A little stream (similar to the talk of the empire) to talk about the maps and possible strategies one or two days before the casting day. And a talk show on the Sunday, to recap the games and maybe an interview to the players. Especially after the finals, at least interview one of them, doesn't have to be the whole team if they can't. Even a pre recorded interview after the games would be amazing
 

Netherlandsnimanoe

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#20
I think recorded games give quite some advantages, like a set time, (almost) no Admin Wins and a more smooth schedule, so I think using recs is better than live games in this scenario, even if you force players to play all games in the weekend like Edie suggests. That has a few issues, like games shouldn't be scheduled at the same time and will most likely give some AWs as well. On top of that you get the regular live problems like teams showing up late and other delays.
I think the suggestion to make the Grand Finals be live instead of recorded is worth looking into, but for 3v3s and 4v4s especially it might not be possible to force teams to play on such a tight schedule (either after the semi's on Saturday or on Sunday).

I really like @dnzdalgic idea to make a pre and post show analysis, I think it would increase the hype for the tournament.
One thing I've really missed these tournaments as well are the map and civ selection, I think it gives a lot of insight into the teams strategies and it would also allow for the casters to have something to talk about before the games. Maybe it would even be possible to have some players on to explain why they picked these maps/civs after all games have been played already. It would also give casters a bit more to talk about and give more in-depth analysis into why the players picked these civs.
We have said it before but: if we said that the games were live and played in a secret lobby then nobody would have any idea that the games are recs.
Don't really agree with you here, I think a big part of watching live games is that you get to know more about the personalities about the players in what they say in the lobby before the game starts and inbetween games. In fact it's a thing I've really missed during the ECL casts now that I think about it. If you don't really know the players or the teams you hardly get to know anything about them, except what they do ingame. That's really important of course, but it's always nice to see some rivalry between players so you get to cheer for your favourites.
 

United StatesInfluenza

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Jul 7, 2011
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#21
I also enjoy playing and watching SC2, and when there's an actual live event this weekend of course I won't watch a vod stream.

But yes, the fact that no one can discuss the tournament makes it seems like it isn't even happening. (For the record, it's quite obvious by the settings teams play in rated games when they are playing in their ECL teams whether they got through or not...)

In the current format, there is no point in watching ECL live, except for twitch chat watching the vod is an identical experience.
hell, you can tell from the activity of the players whether or not they got through 11. I understand the reason for not having live games, but it kills 99% of the hype for me personally
 

Unknownmogers87

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Feb 26, 2017
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#22
I like the idea of having a "match preview" stream.

I'll repeat a previous suggestion of mine: do (only) the grand final of each stage live. With pre and/or post-match interviews. This fits nicely in a sunday afternoon stream. You can build up the hype if the rounds up to semi-finals are played and streamed the week before. Forcing the final to be on a weekend hasn't been a problem in past tournaments.

A big portion of the hype we're talking about in this thread (BoA/KoD) is the anticipation of a big match. Players practicing on stream, everyone talking freely without fear of spoilers, etc.
 
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Unknownmogers87

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Feb 26, 2017
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#25
I'm not going to even dignify that with reading the full thread lol.. Do you really wana go through a 6 hour match watching all the drops, restarts, fp ect instead of watching professional level casting with a real schedule and no dead time? please...
Based on KOD, BoA, NAC, the answer from the viewers is an overwhelming "Yes".

Also, IIRC, ECL has up to Bo5, so it's unlikely to get that long.
 

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