Aftermath takes issue with Tournament Rule Enforcement (-$300) | MembTV's BOA3

[Snizl]

What would have informing them of the fine/rules violation 24/48 hours later changed?

As Heart stated, it is actually not an insignificant amount of money for him (dont know if Nicov still lives in Italy or is back to Argentina), so the price money might have been taken into account for financial planning.

 

[jbr_aoe]

I love a 'blame Chrazini' thread as much as the next person but I really don't get why the blame is put on him here. He is part of the admin team, administering the tournament on behalf of someone else. Are we really naive enough to think that a rogue admin could fine players without the hosts say-so?

I do feel the rules left space for ambiguity and that a fine is very harsh but I also don't for a second believe it would have been Chrazini making that decision in isolation - he would surely have been acting under directives and with specific guidance.

It is right to challenge or question these types of decisions and there are valid points about Memb joining the vc during matches etc but I am a fan of AoE2 moving forwards in its professionalism. I just think clarity should be absolutely key in doing so.

 

[_Andrew]

C'mon guys, RBW coming up, lots of great events going on at the moment... let's get this sorted out and get everyone pulling in the same direction again. Charzini, MBL, the AM boys, and many others are extremely valuable members of this community. It's not worth ostracizing anyone or creating divisions over trifles like this.

 

[ninja14]

Behind the scenes were being lied to, threatened and there is a lot of things being said by admins that makes you wonder why they even are admins at all. Even the host for that matter…

Power goes to most people's head, even if it's meaningless power in real world context

People who admin these tournaments (@robo , @Chrazini ) do a lot of menial hard work for little financial return so they expect to be compensated as powerful lords

 

[King_Marv]

As Heart stated, it is actually not an insignificant amount of money for him (dont know if Nicov still lives in Italy or is back to Argentina), so the price money might have been taken into account for financial planning.

What a nonsense.
Minimum wage in Peru is about 250$ each month. So the reduction over 300$ / 5 = 60 $ assuming the prize pool is split even (which doesn’t make sense since heartt didn’t contribute as much as the others )

Means he lose about one week of income. Also it’s a tournament win of a one time event. If you make your financial planning on that you are just stupid.

Also another question which comes into my mind - if it’s mbl fault why other players accept the reduction split !? Mbl should just take the -300 all on his account and that’s it.

Not surprised at all though. Selfish people

 

[robo]

Power goes to most people's head, even if it's meaningless power in real world context

People who admin these tournaments (@robo , @Chrazini ) do a lot of menial hard work for little financial return so they expect to be compensated as powerful lords

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am compensated well enough for my work that I have been fortunate enough to consider this my primary source of income for the past ~5 years.

I wouldn't change my sleep cycle every few days so that I go to bed at a normal time on weekends and go to bed at 6-10 am on weekdays for the fun of it...
More likely to be the other way around if that was the case (staying up late gaming on weekends)

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Also another question which comes into my mind - if it’s mbl fault why other players accept the reduction split !? Mbl should just take the -300 all on his account and that’s it.

They win and lose as a team ( ͡°( ͡° ͜ʖ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)ʖ ͡°) ͡°)

 

[MusashiAOE]

So let me get this straight;

- Admins have a blank cheque to change any and all rules whenever they want for any reason at all
- Admins can issue fines based on extremely vague rules ("you agree to be interviewed" lol?) for even more vague amounts.
- Admins do not have to disclose how many and how much these fines are
- Any communication between Admins and Players must be kept secret, under threat of ? more fines?
- The fine money is "held for later" in a black hole that nobody can know how much of there is

Who exactly is keeping the Admins accountable here? I am not accusing anyone of foul play but this level of power over the players and winnings is ****ing ridiculous.

 

[Chrazini]

So let me get this straight;

- Admins have a blank cheque to change any and all rules whenever they want for any reason at all
- Admins can issue fines based on extremely vague rules ("you agree to be interviewed" lol?) for even more vague amounts.
- Admins do not have to disclose how many and how much these fines are
- Any communication between Admins and Players must be kept secret, under threat of ? more fines?
- The fine money is "held for later" in a black hole that nobody can know how much of there is

Who exactly is keeping the Admins accountable here? I am not accusing anyone of foul play but this level of power over the players and winnings is ****ing ridiculous.

You're asking some questions and bringing up some good points, so allow me to elaborate.

• Essentially true, but rules cannot be changed or added to then be used on wrongdoing prior to this change. This rule has been used for years and has literally only been used to correct or clarify/specify guidelines. If there were proof of malicious use of this rule, I would understand the concern, but currently, I believe it's benefitting everyone.
• The rule is vague as it stands alone, but when players directly go against instructions from the administrator, in regards to this rule, then it's a different story.
• We don't have to disclose the fines, as we've generally left this up to the teams themselves, whether this is something they wish to share - and not because we love secrecy. The fines, however, have been shared in the official Discord for this event.
• All this rule is saying is that private conversations remain private. This is not only to benefit the organisation, but also the players. Players should be comfortable knowing that what they say will remain confidential. However, if anyone is to experience something so outrageously bad that it must be taken up with a third party, then this is encouraged. Needless to say, clear proof of corruption, embezzlement, cheating or anything else that would affect the players, the event or the entire community would need to be brought to third parties for investigation. This, however, should still be done in a proper manner, giving both parties a voice in the matter.
• The amounts are known as of yesterday. But the original plan was indeed this way. It's a great point, however, and does leave to some ambiguity in exactly how much we're talking about for future events. I think we figured that there would be enough trust in us as organisers, after doing this for years, to do things properly, but I understand that this is also an extremely naive outlook and that everyone should be able to be held accountable, so I think you're making a great point.

I hope that clears up some of your questions and concerns.

 

[Drunkenboar]

I really dislike the attitude taken by Heartt and MBL. The fine is absolutely justifiable. This is also common practice in all sports, events, etc.

When we accept to participate in an event or organized activity, we normally adhere to its T&Cs.

They are actually lucky they are dealing with individuals like Charzini or Memb. If they would be dealing with a corporation they would risk being sued for breach of contract and by defamation.

The solution for them is very easy. Do not participate in any further event organized by Memb or administered by Chrazini. That's the right way to deal with this.

On another topic, should we start a GoFundMe for the 60$ that Heartt is missing? Based on his message, it looks like he really needs them... Happy to pitch in.

 

[Liamsmalley7]

The solution for them is very easy. Do not participate in any further event organized by Memb or administered by Chrazini. That's the right way to deal with this.

That is some serious negative thinking and is absolutely not the right way to deal with this. That is a losing situation for literally everyone.

 

[Drunkenboar]

That is some serious negative thinking and is absolutely not the right way to deal with this. That is a losing situation for literally everyone.

My point is that if you don't like something, then don't take part. It is a way more elegant solution that talking trash about people.

 

[Lightysword]

My point is that if you don't like something, then don't take part. It is a way more elegant solution that talking trash about people.

Sounds like you're going to opt out of taxes too, cause who likes taxes anyway?

 

[Drunkenboar]

Sounds like you're going to opt out of taxes too, cause who likes taxes anyway?

Sounds like you're going to opt out of taxes too, cause who likes taxes anyway?

If I don't like the taxes in a country, I can of course change domicile...

 

[vince]

If I don't like the taxes in a country, I can of course change domicile...

or you could simply admit your suggestion wasn't very good

working toward a resolution would be much better than just running away

granted, how some of this has played out has not been the best possible way, but unfortunately that's simply what happens when people create threads like this, or make judgmental posts with little knowledge of the situation

im confident both sides will figure out a happy medium and be able to move on from this

 

[ninja14]

im confident both sides will figure out a happy medium and be able to move on from this

There is no happy medium. Admins have carte blanche power and from this thread there seem to be no intention to change that.

In one of @Nili_AoE tournaments he changed rules mid tournament which affected the playing bracket, guess what happened, nothing

 

[Progeusz]

Admins have carte blanche power and from this thread there seem to be no intention to change that.

There's nothing wrong with that as long as good will is in place. It's most definitely a preferred model for community like Age of Empires which only has small number of tournament organizers, couple dozens of (semi-)pro players and no major sponsorships except Microsoft.

 

[oozkan]

If I don't like the taxes in a country, I can of course change domicile...

The moment I see this post, I thought, he must be European.

I mean how easy it is to say that compared to a refugee waiting at EU borders. Pff luckily I have permanent residence permit in EU.

 

[oozkan]

The solution for them is very easy. Do not participate in any further event organized by Memb or administered by Chrazini. That's the right way to deal with this.

Well they are making a big fuss for 300$ shared by 5 people, and you suggest them to forfeit potential 10s of thousands from Memb tournaments, or RBW if it is administered by Chrazini again which makes the bill way higher.

Nope, not gonna happen.

 

[oozkan]

In one of @Nili_AoE tournaments he changed rules mid tournament which affected the playing bracket, guess what happened, nothing

Those were the days we thought Nili as an innocent person... Those were the days my friend...

La la la la...

 

[Hunyadi_]

I feel it is counterproductive to punish the most valuable resource we have in competitive AoE2: the actual high level players.

Don't forget without the players we wouldn't have any tournaments to organize. All these casters and organizers basically feed off the the high level ability of the players.

At the end of the day players don't need casters. They get by just fine with donations and subs on Twitch + whatever YT revenue they get.

But casters do need players, because without the players their content is literal trash.

 

[Mouttie]

I feel it is counterproductive to punish the most valuable resource we have in competitive AoE2: the actual high level players.

Don't forget without the players we wouldn't have any tournaments to organize. All these casters and organizers basically feed off the the high level ability of the players.

At the end of the day players don't need casters. They get by just fine with donations and subs on Twitch + whatever YT revenue they get.

But casters do need players, because without the players their content is literal trash.

This is the mentally that spoiled the players and made them come late and act like if it's a normal thing.

 

[Potkeny]

But casters do need players, because without the players their content is literal trash.

And tournament organizers/admins/map makers/etc. are needed by both, as they are the people who actually do the "boring and annoying" groundwork so that players can play in tournament games and casters can cast those.

But of course you can find lots of them for $4/hour, no need to acknowledge their work Kappa

 

[ninja14]

There's nothing wrong with that as long as good will is in place.

Why only admins are allowed to have good will and we should trust them while players don't have the same opportunity.

 

[Snizl]

At the end of the day players don't need casters. They get by just fine with donations and subs on Twitch + whatever YT revenue they get.

How many full time players does this game have?
Hera, Viper, DauT, Jordan, Yo, ACCM, maybe two-three other of the Vietnamese and Chinese players?

And that is WITH tournament earnings AND the exposure and hype around tournaments that is giving these players an actual fanbase. Oh yes, "The Players" need tournament organizers just as much.