In AoFE, every civilization has a way to counter DIRECTLY Celtic or Teuton boosted siege in reasonable numbers, eg. half a dozen siege onagers backed by the same number heavy scorps in a chokepoint, except the Viks who are nerfed good on water (Docks costing +15 wood, Ships costing +10% Feudal/+15% Castle instead of +20% before), but not enough buffed on land to balance it out the overall civ level.
Let's prove my point, by looking at all the civilizations and how they can effectively counter reasonably massed Siege Onagers backed up by Heavy Scorpions, in a choke point or in a decisive place of the map (fight for gold, strategic shallow...), so it's not BF-exclusive of course.
Aztecs: Can use Elite Eagle Warriors (17 attack when FU), who got huge attack bonuses against siege weapons (5 bonus against Scorpions and Mangonels, 8 against rams). They can even use counter Siege Onagers, which can realistically be used as they got the +1 range from Siege Engineers.
Even Monks with Redemption, Block Printing and Sanctity if you're in a funny mood, they can survive one SO shot but with their 12 range you won't even need it
Britons: 12 range Longbow, 11 range Arbalests can take out Siege Onagers 9 max range from a distance comfortably, even if it's a time consuming solution. Strong Keeps with +2 attack.
Byzantines: 12 range Bombard Cannons which got bonuses against siege.
Celts: Obvious
Chinese: A tough one. Though, they got good cavaliers with Bloodlines and the Plate Barding Armor which are required to face that amount of siege: even if they can dodge all the SO shots, the Heavy Scorps, them, won't miss, so they kinda got a way out. Bombard Towers are too weak as SO outrange them by 1, added with Chinese builders are not fast and anyway a BBT can be taken by a distance by a Treb.
CarlosFerdinand even suggested to give them the Bombard Cannon (12 range) to Chinese to make them better at this task (point 59 of his long list), personally I prefer to give them Block Printing (plus Chinese were the pioneers of Block Printing with their xylography techniques) to convert siege from a 12 range distance (besides, Rocketry tech was designed to compensate for the BC lack), but the results will be equivalent anyway. IMO Block Printing is less than a change than BC, hence preferable.
So hard just like Aztec Imperial Water, but not counter-less.
Franks: 13 range Bombard Cannons with Siege Engineers, best Paladins in the game and the fastest creation time for them, not much to speak of.
Goths: 12 range Bombard Cannons, Huskarls are less sensible against scorp bolts and can flatten a good mass of siege onagers before dying, reasonable Hussars with Bloodlines, they lack Plate Barding Armor but the +20 HP is more important facing siege.
Huns: Massed FU Pallies (or even Tarkans, cheaper, created faster from Stables when in a hurry), maybe some precise Hun Trebs to take out the Scorps while the Heavy Cav do the rest of the job.
When running out of gold, even FU Hussars (95 HP, 6 PA!), can perform reasonable.
Incas: Massed lightning fast Eagles, as I said with Azt, good bonuses against siege.
Indians: Obviously, 13 range Bombard Cannons. FU Hussars.
Italians: 12 range BC will do the trick.
Japs: Buffed with Bloodlines, now got a "not so bad" Cavalier (missing Plate Barding still) to deal with massed siege, though their Trebuchets with Karataputo who just pack and unpack in two seconds and fire CRAZY fast are enough to deal with that, provided they are protected.
Koreans: Shinkichon Siege Onagers with +2 range, not much more to say
Mayans: Like Incas, compensating their Eagles -10% speed with +40 HP, now that's compensating
Maygars: Maygar Huszar with 5 bonus damage against Siege. Cheaper Hussars. Paladins...all FU
Mongols: On steroids 117 HP Hussars, counter Siege Onagers
Persians: FU Paladins, 12 range BC
Saracens: FU Hussars, 13 range BC, Monks if you're in a funny mood
Slavs: FU Hussars, FU Boyars, Counter SO, Monks etc.
Spanish: FU Hussars or even better FU Pallies, 12 range bombard cannons, Monks to laugh a bit
Teutons: I won't be as shameful to mention to you +4 melee armor Siege Onagers and Bombard Cannons (with 13 range because of Siege Engineers of course), or other 14 range Castles
Turks: Same as above, not as shameful to mention 14 range Bombard Cannons and FU Hussars upgraded for free
NOW time for our poor Vikings.
Range solutions: Only got normal Onagers, same range as Siege Onagers but a little 25 attack less and less splash damage. I don't call that a solution.
They can build a Castle with 12 range along with 7000 HP+ once FU, delaying the siege march with some meatshield unit, but it's not enough of a solution at all: siege army will just sit back the castle while some trebs of bombard cannons behind will treb the Castle...and if you try to treb the trebs, no doubt that 3-4 siege onagers will one shot your trebs even if the Castle is here.
Melee solutions: Massed FU Champs with 84 HP is a catastrophy, even with micro to try to dodge the siege onagers, massed heavy scorps is just too poweful against a 1 base pierce armor unit, at best you'll take some Siege Onagers but the scorps will still be there.
Only way is to waste a **** load of ressources by sending at least 4 waves of 40 champs very time-close, but even so your opponent can send more siege, especially in a late game situation with a good trade.
Berserkers are even worse because of their only 72 HP which doesn't help, regeneration is useless when a unit get one shot by scorps.
Heavy Cavalry is a joke, no Paladins, no Bloodlines, no Husbandry (so very slugglish moving cavalry), no scale barding armor so a FU Viking Cavalier got even less PA than a Vik Champ, making them useless against scorps.
All these issues also concerns their Hussars...oh wait...their Light Cavalry pardon me.
The "lol-now onagers can cut trees" is not satisfying either, AoE is meant so that each civ got at least one decent counter against other units, if one civ is responseless against one unit and can't fight it, it's the perfect example of a critical balance issue and it should be fixed. VIKINGS CAN'T JUST RESOLVE A PROBLEM BY ESCAPING IT, BUT BY FIGHTING IT (and anyway if they flee the choke, they will get eco devasted by siege onnies)
Many civs got an anti-X unit to deal with something they can't fight against, eg. the mesos (remember that all non-trash infantry get bonuses against Eagles) Aztecs got their Jaguar Warrior to deal with units which counter both their Eagles and Champions, such as the Teutonic Knight. Mayans Elite Plumed got 2 bonus damage against all infantry because they need something to deal with units that counter both their Plumed and their Eagles, I named the Huskarl. Incas got their Slinger because they need to counter heavy infantry that kill their Kamayuk and their Eagles, such as the Woad Raider or the Berserk.
The other way is to simply give the unit/tech they got problems with to the concerned civ to "fight fire with fire", it has been done notably on AoC patches, like giving Halberdiers to Franks and Huns in the first patches.
To sum it up, and it is a necessity because imperial warfare is pivotal in AoC games, not only in low and average skilled games, and a bad luck civ should not mean a defeat.
Vikings either need one anti-siege unit OR counter Siege Onagers to deal with that huge problem.
It won't let to an OPness as Cysion as wrote in his largely accepted "Civ Domination Chart", Vikings are undoubtely the worst civ ever in both mid-Imperial and post-Imperial situations:
http://www.cysion.be/aocbox/?p=226
Here are my suggestions to remedy to the problem, only one of them is sufficient. If you got others, just propose ofc!
- ANTI-SIEGE UNIT SOLUTION:
- Likely to the Condottiero who get 10 bonus damage against gunpowder units and 10 bonus defense against Hand Cannoneers, Slingers, Cataphracts, give Berserkers 6 bonus damage against siege weapons and 6 bonus defense against siege weapons when BERSERKERGANG is researched.
So that a FU Berserker kill a FU Celtic/Teuton Heavy Scorpion in 3 hits instead of 4, and kill a FU Celtic Siege Onager in 5 hits instead of 6, plus making them more resistant against siege so that when good massed, they can take all the SO without being slayed by scorpions, and as Berserkers got 72 HP vs 75 attack siege Onagers, they will no longer be one shot by Siege Onagers.
- "FIGHT-FIRE-BY-FIRE SOLUTION
- Give Vikings Siege Onagers. As they are tier 5 on 5 in both mid-Imperial and Post-Imp with trade, (tbh now that they got Chieftains tech and Treadmill crane), they can pretend to a 3 on 5 tier now, which is not dramatic considering overall performance of civs such as Mayans or Byzantines. And they still lack Guilds so they won't be OP in post-imp situation with these SO anyway.
- Last but not least, TIER 1 EARLY IMP MEGA PUSH SITUATION RAIDING PARTY
- Free Conscription (requires a Castle).
Not giving them any anti heavy siege counter, but the best early imperial in the game. Like Persians, they got the best boom in the game, so they are likely to be the first in Imperial in all circumstances. Which means that the Onager research to cut through trees will also come first, and we know what follows...
The goal here is to prevent a Celtic or a Teuton player to research Siege Onager soon enough to force an engagement on a chokepoint Vikings can't fight for, by letting the possibility to Viks to cut in trees early and flood military a tad earlier than any other civ (Conscription takes 60 seconds time to research).
It's the simplest solution and goes very well with Viking "raiding" spirit as they were the best raiders in Medieval Europe, remember Canute Viking army taking England violently, but it's also the least satisfying situation in a long game as this advantage is nullified when every player has researched it.
Now, I hope you'll enjoy my thoughts on Vikings siege vulnerablilty, which is arguably the last "huge" balance problem in AoFE. Radida!
Let's prove my point, by looking at all the civilizations and how they can effectively counter reasonably massed Siege Onagers backed up by Heavy Scorpions, in a choke point or in a decisive place of the map (fight for gold, strategic shallow...), so it's not BF-exclusive of course.
Aztecs: Can use Elite Eagle Warriors (17 attack when FU), who got huge attack bonuses against siege weapons (5 bonus against Scorpions and Mangonels, 8 against rams). They can even use counter Siege Onagers, which can realistically be used as they got the +1 range from Siege Engineers.
Even Monks with Redemption, Block Printing and Sanctity if you're in a funny mood, they can survive one SO shot but with their 12 range you won't even need it
Britons: 12 range Longbow, 11 range Arbalests can take out Siege Onagers 9 max range from a distance comfortably, even if it's a time consuming solution. Strong Keeps with +2 attack.
Byzantines: 12 range Bombard Cannons which got bonuses against siege.
Celts: Obvious
Chinese: A tough one. Though, they got good cavaliers with Bloodlines and the Plate Barding Armor which are required to face that amount of siege: even if they can dodge all the SO shots, the Heavy Scorps, them, won't miss, so they kinda got a way out. Bombard Towers are too weak as SO outrange them by 1, added with Chinese builders are not fast and anyway a BBT can be taken by a distance by a Treb.
CarlosFerdinand even suggested to give them the Bombard Cannon (12 range) to Chinese to make them better at this task (point 59 of his long list), personally I prefer to give them Block Printing (plus Chinese were the pioneers of Block Printing with their xylography techniques) to convert siege from a 12 range distance (besides, Rocketry tech was designed to compensate for the BC lack), but the results will be equivalent anyway. IMO Block Printing is less than a change than BC, hence preferable.
So hard just like Aztec Imperial Water, but not counter-less.
Franks: 13 range Bombard Cannons with Siege Engineers, best Paladins in the game and the fastest creation time for them, not much to speak of.
Goths: 12 range Bombard Cannons, Huskarls are less sensible against scorp bolts and can flatten a good mass of siege onagers before dying, reasonable Hussars with Bloodlines, they lack Plate Barding Armor but the +20 HP is more important facing siege.
Huns: Massed FU Pallies (or even Tarkans, cheaper, created faster from Stables when in a hurry), maybe some precise Hun Trebs to take out the Scorps while the Heavy Cav do the rest of the job.
When running out of gold, even FU Hussars (95 HP, 6 PA!), can perform reasonable.
Incas: Massed lightning fast Eagles, as I said with Azt, good bonuses against siege.
Indians: Obviously, 13 range Bombard Cannons. FU Hussars.
Italians: 12 range BC will do the trick.
Japs: Buffed with Bloodlines, now got a "not so bad" Cavalier (missing Plate Barding still) to deal with massed siege, though their Trebuchets with Karataputo who just pack and unpack in two seconds and fire CRAZY fast are enough to deal with that, provided they are protected.
Koreans: Shinkichon Siege Onagers with +2 range, not much more to say
Mayans: Like Incas, compensating their Eagles -10% speed with +40 HP, now that's compensating
Maygars: Maygar Huszar with 5 bonus damage against Siege. Cheaper Hussars. Paladins...all FU
Mongols: On steroids 117 HP Hussars, counter Siege Onagers
Persians: FU Paladins, 12 range BC
Saracens: FU Hussars, 13 range BC, Monks if you're in a funny mood
Slavs: FU Hussars, FU Boyars, Counter SO, Monks etc.
Spanish: FU Hussars or even better FU Pallies, 12 range bombard cannons, Monks to laugh a bit
Teutons: I won't be as shameful to mention to you +4 melee armor Siege Onagers and Bombard Cannons (with 13 range because of Siege Engineers of course), or other 14 range Castles
Turks: Same as above, not as shameful to mention 14 range Bombard Cannons and FU Hussars upgraded for free
NOW time for our poor Vikings.
Range solutions: Only got normal Onagers, same range as Siege Onagers but a little 25 attack less and less splash damage. I don't call that a solution.
They can build a Castle with 12 range along with 7000 HP+ once FU, delaying the siege march with some meatshield unit, but it's not enough of a solution at all: siege army will just sit back the castle while some trebs of bombard cannons behind will treb the Castle...and if you try to treb the trebs, no doubt that 3-4 siege onagers will one shot your trebs even if the Castle is here.
Melee solutions: Massed FU Champs with 84 HP is a catastrophy, even with micro to try to dodge the siege onagers, massed heavy scorps is just too poweful against a 1 base pierce armor unit, at best you'll take some Siege Onagers but the scorps will still be there.
Only way is to waste a **** load of ressources by sending at least 4 waves of 40 champs very time-close, but even so your opponent can send more siege, especially in a late game situation with a good trade.
Berserkers are even worse because of their only 72 HP which doesn't help, regeneration is useless when a unit get one shot by scorps.
Heavy Cavalry is a joke, no Paladins, no Bloodlines, no Husbandry (so very slugglish moving cavalry), no scale barding armor so a FU Viking Cavalier got even less PA than a Vik Champ, making them useless against scorps.
All these issues also concerns their Hussars...oh wait...their Light Cavalry pardon me.
The "lol-now onagers can cut trees" is not satisfying either, AoE is meant so that each civ got at least one decent counter against other units, if one civ is responseless against one unit and can't fight it, it's the perfect example of a critical balance issue and it should be fixed. VIKINGS CAN'T JUST RESOLVE A PROBLEM BY ESCAPING IT, BUT BY FIGHTING IT (and anyway if they flee the choke, they will get eco devasted by siege onnies)
Many civs got an anti-X unit to deal with something they can't fight against, eg. the mesos (remember that all non-trash infantry get bonuses against Eagles) Aztecs got their Jaguar Warrior to deal with units which counter both their Eagles and Champions, such as the Teutonic Knight. Mayans Elite Plumed got 2 bonus damage against all infantry because they need something to deal with units that counter both their Plumed and their Eagles, I named the Huskarl. Incas got their Slinger because they need to counter heavy infantry that kill their Kamayuk and their Eagles, such as the Woad Raider or the Berserk.
The other way is to simply give the unit/tech they got problems with to the concerned civ to "fight fire with fire", it has been done notably on AoC patches, like giving Halberdiers to Franks and Huns in the first patches.
To sum it up, and it is a necessity because imperial warfare is pivotal in AoC games, not only in low and average skilled games, and a bad luck civ should not mean a defeat.
Vikings either need one anti-siege unit OR counter Siege Onagers to deal with that huge problem.
It won't let to an OPness as Cysion as wrote in his largely accepted "Civ Domination Chart", Vikings are undoubtely the worst civ ever in both mid-Imperial and post-Imperial situations:
http://www.cysion.be/aocbox/?p=226
Here are my suggestions to remedy to the problem, only one of them is sufficient. If you got others, just propose ofc!
- ANTI-SIEGE UNIT SOLUTION:
- Likely to the Condottiero who get 10 bonus damage against gunpowder units and 10 bonus defense against Hand Cannoneers, Slingers, Cataphracts, give Berserkers 6 bonus damage against siege weapons and 6 bonus defense against siege weapons when BERSERKERGANG is researched.
So that a FU Berserker kill a FU Celtic/Teuton Heavy Scorpion in 3 hits instead of 4, and kill a FU Celtic Siege Onager in 5 hits instead of 6, plus making them more resistant against siege so that when good massed, they can take all the SO without being slayed by scorpions, and as Berserkers got 72 HP vs 75 attack siege Onagers, they will no longer be one shot by Siege Onagers.
- "FIGHT-FIRE-BY-FIRE SOLUTION
- Give Vikings Siege Onagers. As they are tier 5 on 5 in both mid-Imperial and Post-Imp with trade, (tbh now that they got Chieftains tech and Treadmill crane), they can pretend to a 3 on 5 tier now, which is not dramatic considering overall performance of civs such as Mayans or Byzantines. And they still lack Guilds so they won't be OP in post-imp situation with these SO anyway.
- Last but not least, TIER 1 EARLY IMP MEGA PUSH SITUATION RAIDING PARTY
- Free Conscription (requires a Castle).
Not giving them any anti heavy siege counter, but the best early imperial in the game. Like Persians, they got the best boom in the game, so they are likely to be the first in Imperial in all circumstances. Which means that the Onager research to cut through trees will also come first, and we know what follows...
The goal here is to prevent a Celtic or a Teuton player to research Siege Onager soon enough to force an engagement on a chokepoint Vikings can't fight for, by letting the possibility to Viks to cut in trees early and flood military a tad earlier than any other civ (Conscription takes 60 seconds time to research).
It's the simplest solution and goes very well with Viking "raiding" spirit as they were the best raiders in Medieval Europe, remember Canute Viking army taking England violently, but it's also the least satisfying situation in a long game as this advantage is nullified when every player has researched it.
Now, I hope you'll enjoy my thoughts on Vikings siege vulnerablilty, which is arguably the last "huge" balance problem in AoFE. Radida!