The Grand Melee - Announcement and Discussion

Some time ago, the secretive Order of the Sheep teased us The Grand Melee, an Age of Empires II: DE happening in Hannover at the DreamHack LAN event, from the 15th to the 17th of December.

We are now happy to deliver the full message to you.

Settings specifics
The whole event will be played using the DWL game mode, also known as 9 villagers start game mode. It will allow for quicker action, while keeping the openness and strategic diversity of the standard RM mode.

Main event
The Grand Melee main event will consist of a single elimination bracket, featuring a total of 8 players.
15th of December
Quarter finals best of 5
16th of December
Semi finals best of 7
17th of December
Third place match best of 7 and Grand final best of 9

Participation
Firstly, as per their performance in the RedBull Wololo: Legacy tournament, Liereyy and TaToH has been granted an invitation to the main event.

Secondly, the other 6 participants will have to come on top of the entirely open qualifiers happening on the 3rd and 4th of December. The registration is already open and you can sign up here on start.gg

Prize money reward
The monetary reward will amount to a whopping $100,000 split between the 8 main event players as followed:

1st place: $40,000
2nd place: $20,000
3rd place: $14,000
4th place: $10,000
5th to 8th: $4,000

Where to watch?
The whole event will be streamed on Twitch at: https://www.twitch.tv/theorderofthesheep

On top of that, the qualifiers will be completely open to broadcast, so you can catch them live at your favourite streamer’s channel on the 3rd and 4th of December!

Details for the broadcasting policy of the main event will be announced soon. Stay tuned...

Join the Discord server now!
Chat with us and get all the latest updates regarding The Grand Melee at https://discord.gg/vT9NWJJtp5

You can also use this announcement thread to discuss about the tournament and to send your questions and feedback.

See you soon!

 

a person on the internet who throws unnecessary hate towards other people (people who are trying their best) is just a lonely sad individual frustrated with their irl life. It's best to ignore them.

This pretty much sums up AoEZone nowadays

 

This pretty much sums up AoEZone nowadays

thats why i block certain individuals who add nothing but negativity to my already diminishing online life

 

The Duality of Men. People think everyone is nice, even in such a close-knit and accepting community but the reality is there's always gonna be haters. It's human nature - not everyone is the same, and people tend to release their frustrations and incapabilities on others = judgmental mindsets. I dare all of you who have been voicing such harsh comments towards Ellie to go in front of a crowd of hundreds of people, hold a mic and then interview. (can ya do it? or are ya just all talk on a virtual forum hiding behind the powers of the Internet?)

Also very hot take and I am gonna get hate for this next statement, but a person on the internet who throws unnecessary hate towards other people (people who are trying their best) is just a lonely sad individual frustrated with their irl life. It's best to ignore them.

Agreed telling casters or people in the limelight to "deal with it" seems wrong, but that's been the case ever since - famous people get criticized, they have haters, every single one - even the nicest of human beings do, that's just the way it is. Haters Gonna Hate

"You probably can't do it better so you're not allowed to voice your opinion" is a very flawed argument. You don't have to be a chef to say the food isn't good.

 

This pretty much sums up AoEZone nowadays

There are 203 responses in this thread including feedback from a top pro player that helped get the prize pool changed. If you and others want to focus on the ~5-8 out of line messages and then deem the entire forum a cesspool that's on you.

 

just took a look at the tournament elo leaderboards, whoever decided to use this thing for seeding must be completely clueless. There's a player in the top 16 who has 1 top 16 S tier tournament appearance in his life. It's clearly biased towards players participating in A, B, and C tier tournaments where many of the top players dont even play.

Can someone remind me why the old method of player seedings of the top players being done by the top players themselves was retired? I felt it was a quite good method overall.. especially when compared to the other attempts at grading players

There was an analysis posted a while ago here on aoezone that compared the predictive power of different seeding methods. Aoe-Elo performed best, slightly ahead of ATP rankings (and way ahead of ladder).

Why do we keep giving chances to an incompetent, disrespectful caster, just because they have different sexual organs?

I think it is because many people find them funny.

 

There was an analysis posted a while ago here on aoezone that compared the predictive power of different seeding methods. Aoe-Elo performed best, slightly ahead of ATP rankings (and way ahead of ladder).



I think it is because many people find them funny.

there's a difference between S-tier ATP and the all-tournament ATP. I don't know which was used in that analysis, but S-tier ATP is probably the best seeding tool we have for any S-tier tournament.

 

there's a difference between S-tier ATP and the all-tournament ATP. I don't know which was used in that analysis, but S-tier ATP is probably the best seeding tool we have for any S-tier tournament.

I don’t know that. When I am my desktop later I’ll try to find the analysis and look it up. Maybe the author would even be willing to repeat it including S-Tier ATP if that wasn’t in there before.
I wouldn’t underestimate aoe-elo even compared to S-Tier ATP. Elo generally has a high predictive power simply through the fact that in inherently considers opponent strength and closeness of series. Whether or not that outweighs the disadvantage from different tournaments receiving different levels of attention is of course always up for debate.

 

So uhmm, still no news about the timing of those three matches?

 

Artosis joins the broadcast talent.

https://twitter.com/OrderOfTheSheep/status/1600903336294846481

 

there's a difference between S-tier ATP and the all-tournament ATP. I don't know which was used in that analysis, but S-tier ATP is probably the best seeding tool we have for any S-tier tournament.

Predictive Power of Ranking Systems

In a recent discussion of ranking systems as used to seed tournaments, I realized I thought that the best way to evaluate a ranking system is through its predictive power. I therefore decided to test a set of ranking systems to see which one was best at predicting tournament outcomes. The...

www.aoezone.net

Then there is happyleaves' more recent thread with some seeding-comparisons:

Simulated Ladder Seeding

There's been a lot of talk about seeding lately, especially for The Grand Melee. One alternative seeding method could be as follows: 1. Select all matches played between qualified players (ranked and unranked, only 1v1, only RM/EW) 2. Simulate a ladder by replaying the matches in chronological...

www.aoezone.net

 

Artosis joins the broadcast talent.

https://twitter.com/OrderOfTheSheep/status/1600903336294846481

I'm confused...does he cast AoE?!

 

Artosis joins the broadcast talent.

https://twitter.com/OrderOfTheSheep/status/1600903336294846481

Wow that's pretty huge, Artosis is a great caster. Not sure about his Aoe knowledge though lol

 

I'm confused...does he cast AoE?!

Kind of:

• He played AoE 3 "competitively" a bit at release (in the time before SC2)
• He played AoE 4 at release a bit (he loved longbowman)
• I believe he played AoE2 when DE came out, especially around the same time Day9 was doing it.
• I am pretty sure he talked about AoE in the Pylon show at various points

So no straight-up casting, but I don't imagine he is super unfamiliar either.

 

There was an analysis posted a while ago here on aoezone that compared the predictive power of different seeding methods. Aoe-Elo performed best, slightly ahead of ATP rankings (and way ahead of ladder).

This is incorrect.
Here's the thread from HappyLeaves: https://www.aoezone.net/threads/simulated-ladder-seeding.185565/
HappyLeaves compared 3 tourneys, Warlords, RBW:L, and TTL, and here is how the various seeding methods compared:

HappyLeaves simulation: 69% average accuracy (nice), 66% lowest accuracy
ATP: 65% average accuracy, 56% lowest accuracy
AoE-Elo: 59% Average accuracy, 51% lowest accuracy
So, for the tourneys that HappyLeaves analyzed, AoE-Elo was the worst performer of the 3.

 

This is incorrect.
Here's the thread from HappyLeaves: https://www.aoezone.net/threads/simulated-ladder-seeding.185565/
HappyLeaves compared 3 tourneys, Warlords, RBW:L, and TTL, and here is how the various seeding methods compared:

HappyLeaves simulation: 69% average accuracy (nice), 66% lowest accuracy
ATP: 65% average accuracy, 56% lowest accuracy
AoE-Elo: 59% Average accuracy, 51% lowest accuracy
So, for the tourneys that HappyLeaves analyzed, AoE-Elo was the worst performer of the 3.

I don't believe this is the thread he is referring too, I think he is referring to the earlier analysis by @felix.feroc (iirc, sorry if I just tagged a random user) which indeed had aoe-elo as the strongest predictor of results as he says

Edit: https://www.aoezone.net/threads/predictive-power-of-ranking-systems.180351/

 

Kind of:

• He played AoE 3 "competitively" a bit at release (in the time before SC2)
• He played AoE 4 at release a bit (he loved longbowman)
• I believe he played AoE2 when DE came out, especially around the same time Day9 was doing it.
• I am pretty sure he talked about AoE in the Pylon show at various points

So no straight-up casting, but I don't imagine he is super unfamiliar either.

Yea, I remember he and a friend of him from SC came to AoE3 with sponsors from brood wars and hosted a few tournaments (one for teamgame and one for 1v1), he seeded himself in, but were top40ish on the ladder so quite good.

Were some scandal tho when players did not get their money and they left the scene in a hurry, but he was quite involved in AoE3 scene first 6 months and also played AoE2 on zone I belive so he is not totally ignorant about it.

Maybe it can drag in some people from SC2 you never know.

 

Artosis is not casting. He is the new Riley Knight

 

This is incorrect.
Here's the thread from HappyLeaves: https://www.aoezone.net/threads/simulated-ladder-seeding.185565/
HappyLeaves compared 3 tourneys, Warlords, RBW:L, and TTL, and here is how the various seeding methods compared:

HappyLeaves simulation: 69% average accuracy (nice), 66% lowest accuracy
ATP: 65% average accuracy, 56% lowest accuracy
AoE-Elo: 59% Average accuracy, 51% lowest accuracy
So, for the tourneys that HappyLeaves analyzed, AoE-Elo was the worst performer of the 3.

I don't believe this is the thread he is referring too, I think he is referring to the earlier analysis by @felix.feroc (iirc, sorry if I just tagged a random user) which indeed had aoe-elo as the strongest predictor of results as he says

Edit: https://www.aoezone.net/threads/predictive-power-of-ranking-systems.180351/

To add to that: I don't think using a current snapshot of any ranking to judge past tournaments gives a meaningful analysis.

 

To add to that: I don't think using a current snapshot of any ranking to judge past tournaments gives a meaningful analysis.

If you look at TTL, the difference is pretty small. TTL used ATP - and ended up with 69% accuracy vs 70% using current values
But yes, point taken

 

There are 203 responses in this thread including feedback from a top pro player that helped get the prize pool changed. If you and others want to focus on the ~5-8 out of line messages and then deem the entire forum a cesspool that's on you.

But that would involve critical thinking. You know, for folks who seem to dislike the place so much you'd think they'd simply stop coming -- but alas, how else would anyone they deem to not care about hear what they have to say?

I am deeply amused at the change of "tone," of certain posts once the event funding source/organization became less ambiguous.

Curious where the discussion on how this tourney likely was developed/planned while Nili (GL) was still tournament coordinator (I believe that makes at least two (2) 100k tournaments via AOE2/4 for Nili and/or GL during his reign -- would love to see the pie chart of GL/Nili MS funded aoe2/4 tournaments vs. all others.)

I expect Aftermath's Snickers Ice Cream Cup to be forthcoming.

 

The nature of AOE2 as a part time hobby rather than profession for most "pro," players leaves seeding an art. You can certainly create an algorithm that provides decent accuracy to date when you have the benefit of being able to tweak it in real time, adjusting as necessary to make the data conform to past results as closely as possible.

The nature of aoe2, the ebbs and flows of activity, and the nearly infinite possibility for tournament settings make the reliability of any seeding method tenuous at best.

I suspect that the community puts off more casual players with the public squabbling over seeding "fairness," (RE: I think I am actually seeded higher than you have me in system X, thus I advocate for system Z.) than it does entertaining those who enjoy the much more appropriately niche discussion.

 

This pretty much sums up AoEZone nowadays

- I saw someone posting criticism of a particular caster and I happened to remember another offensive moment from the caster. So I posted about it.
- They saw my criticism, and responded with what I believe to be a sufficient explanation of the incident. I "like"-d their response. Misunderstanding resolved. We move on.

I'm still not going to like their casting, and they don't have to like me as an audience, but a grievance was addressed. This is how adults communicate.

All this subsequent, useless whiteknighting from you and another poster isn't going to get either of you laid.

 

Re: "sexist attacks". There are plenty of parallels in sports commentating where a young and female commentator is dangled in front of a predominantly male audience to increase viewership. Pointing out that this phenomenon exists is not misogyny. Defending and indulging in it is.

As others have pointed out in this thread, it's certainly not a caster's fault for accepting any opportunity offered. I'm placing that fault with the organizers of these tournaments who repeatedly reach out to subpar commentators of one gender, in hopes of pandering to the tastes of a predominantly male audience -- and it isn't working, judging from the stream numbers.

 

I suspect that the community puts off more casual players with the public squabbling over seeding "fairness," (RE: I think I am actually seeded higher than you have me in system X, thus I advocate for system Z.) than it does entertaining those who enjoy the much more appropriately niche discussion.

On the contrary, I don't think the casual players care at all about which pro gets assigned which number in the next big tournament. Seems to be only the players themselves and a small section of the more hardcore fanbase that ever really talk about it. But, when those numbers can mean the difference in thousands of potential dollars, it is what it is

 

But that would involve critical thinking. You know, for folks who seem to dislike the place so much you'd think they'd simply stop coming -- but alas, how else would anyone they deem to not care about hear what they have to say?

There’s occasionally some good things on here really which I’d have missed. It is one of the things that keeps me around here and the fact that in some way, this game always comes back to me even though I’ve left it around 3-4 times.

Otherwise, it is very true actually when I do think about it. The amount of negative things compared to positive on here is largely disproportionate by what feels like a 9:1 ratio. Other than like Nicov/Memb’s post (which is probably the main reason something happened and not the majority of the other posts), I’m curious how many other examples like that are there? I’m sure there’s be at least another one or two. Because otherwise I can think of a lot of opposing ones like: Nili bashed for 4 months without there being any good intention behind it (among one or two others), T90 getting his own hate for swapping to Facebook for 2 months, Viper getting it for about one, Spring and Gabi’s thing (look how that turned out in multiple threads), a random subscriber getting banned from Mbl’s stream for trolling and trying to make a stink about it on here (was another similiar thing too), one of Hera’s past examples where he did do something bad was used as an excuse to bash him for about 3 months at one point, some users quoting pros and giving the impression they want to fight them, and I’m sure there’s more if I think deeper or even search some things. It sure looks like people do like to argue and feed off of things what looks like to be too much. And the interesting thing about that stuff too is there’s some usernames you never/rarely see that suddenly appear, then they’re gone just as quickly once the topic goes to the graveyard.

I also only read this topic out of boredom recovering from a cold before and since it kept shooting up in post count, but when there’s a low-key sex joke that’s still here for example, it’s almost a new low too. I won’t deny it made me smirk, but women generally don’t find that stuff amusing like us guys do. It’s more in line of being weird and creepy. Just slowly adding to the list tbh.