EDIT: I change the improvements overtime. See the official Balance Discussion page 22 to see my new improvements given to infantry
I'll use the Viking example in this thread (since it's my favourite civ, just a personal choice), but it can be perfectly replaced by any Infantry civ such as Goths, Teutons or Japanese.
Vikings were a top notch land civilisation back in AOK, but now in AOC they are a mid-tier one and they can't compete with Huns/Celts/Aztecs/Mayas/Mongols on land maps with pro players.
The explanation is simple as ****:
Vikings are an infantry civilisation, all their offensive bonuses on land are only based on infantry, and since AOC barracks-line swordmen are UNDERPOWERED cause of Archery and Cavalry massive buffs:
=> Thumb Ring tech, who reduce Archers rate of fire from 2.04 to 1.73 and Cavalry Archers from 2.04 to 1.84
=> Parthian Tactics for cav archers, +1/+2 armor and bonus vs. Spearmen-line
=> Bloodlines which gives a huge +20 HP to all mounted units (even cav archers), and make the civs who recieve that their knights as good as frankish ones, slight difference only for Cavalier and Paladin
And what buff recieve infantry in AOC? +1 pierce armor, lol.
That makes swordman infantry only good to make eight things which they don't even excel at:
- Kill Spearman-line (but archery-line does it quicker)
- Kill Skirmisher-line (but cavalry-line does it quicker)
- Kill Eagle Warriors, with the +6 hidden bonus of Champs vs Eagles (but heavy cavalry does it slightly quicker due to their speed)
- Kill Huskarls (but heavy cavalry does it quicker)
- Kill Rams/Onagers (but cavalry does it quicker)
- Kill Monks (but Light Cavalry does it quicker)
- Kill Buildings, eg Champs get a +3 bonus vs buildings (but Rams does it quicker)
- Kill Light Cavalry (but Spearmen-line does it quicker, and the Byzantine champion can't kill a fully upgraded 118 HP Mongol Hussar, the only exception. Elite Maygar Huszar also can be killed only by Japanese and Viking Champion)
For the rest they get ****ed, even most of the fully upgraded Heavy Camels in each civ that got them kill Champs in 1v1 (exact same rate of fire by the way, WTF an experienced swordman have the same rate of fire as a defensive anti-cavalry unit?!).
Swordmen infantry need a significant buff, and Vikings will become top notch like the other competitive civs for sure. Cause today even Spearmen-line is more used in most of the games than regular infantry lol, such a shame for this mighty class.
Seriously, who has recently see in their last game a Man-at-Arms rush in Feudal? A Long Swordmen rush in Castle? It's as rare as a Knight Rush from Mayans lol
Myself I don't like archery and cavalry, but I never go M@A rush at feudal unless I'm Celt, since they are very sluggish moving, seriously, why people will go for M@A since Scouts for example got -1 attack but are way faster, have more HP with bloodlines researched, and cost no gold?
Here's my suggestion to make them decent and competitive as a good second-line warforce mixed with elite units like Cavalry/Archery/Siege, more two-leg Knight-like, and it will apply to all the civs:
Infantry, infantry, infantry. It needs to stop to be the ugly duckling of the game, period. It is proved that even with their cost, a perfect eco to support them, and even with a "infantry civilization", they can't face efficiently archery and cavalry which was buff like crazy in AoC (supposing two equal skilled players). in fact it's not bad things if infantry got their little buffs as well, so here they come!
These changes are crucial for the rock-paper-scissor balance of AoF:
- All swordmen infantry strikes per second (Throwing Axemen and Spearmen-line excluded): -10% when Squires is researched, like Knights (2.04 to 1.84). A warrior on foot should at least strike as fast as a mounted one, and not as slow as a ****ing camel
N.B: The base ROF for Japanese Samurai is 1.94, so their ROF will in theory be 1.746 in Castle Age;
but combinated with the Japanese infantry bonuses, their ROF will be 1.746 - 15% = 1.4841 in Castle Age, and 1.746 - 20% = 1.3968 in Imperial Age
- Long Swordsman and beyond +1 attack (10 LS, 12 2HS, 14 Champ)
- +5 HP Two-Handed Swordmen (60 to 65 HP) to make a more progressive HP staggering: 60 HP LS, 65 HP 2HS, 70 HP Champ
- Likely to Elite Eagle Warriors who get an hidden bonus of +5 (+8) attack against all siege units (rams), all other swordmen infantry created in Castles, or in Barracks (starting at Long Swordsman) get a more modest +3 attack against all siege units
It will end the OPness of mass Siege Onagers against bad heavy cavalry civilizations without Bombard Cannons, Siege Onagers or Longbowmen (so they can't do **** against mass Siege Onagers) which are Vikings and Japanese
- Long Swordsman upgrade -10 seconds, 45 to 35 seconds, like Crossbowman upgrade
It may look OP, but compared to Archery-line and Cavalry-line huge bonuses that AOC get, it just looks VERY reasonable.
With all that **** Vikings will compete on any land map with their infantry for sure, as they get even more HP to their infantry. They will get feared and not mocked as today, with their Imperial Age 90 HP (75 HP + 20% Viking Bonus) Champion.
AOFE needs to restore the rock/paper/scissor balance for swordsmen infantry, it's very important, since I know that infantry is a favourite class of many people in the AOC community, not as much as Knights or Archery, but Infantry-lovers need to have DECENT units to compete with. Plus, it'll restore the natural balance of the game, all the Infantry based civs such as Teutons, Viks, Japs or Goths will have now the potential to compete against the 5 top civs outta here, civs that I listed in my first sentence.
Last but not least, even non-Infantry civilisations such as Britons or Franks can use their Swordsmen-line more efficiently too. The point is: we need a little more infantry in AoFE, more M@A rushes in Feudal, more Longswords rushes in Castle!!
In my opinion, it's the second major balance issue in this game that need to be resolved, behind dark and feudal economical bonuses that need low-tier civlisations to at least compete militarly in the first ages (Koreans, Turks...). But this is an other subject.
P.S: To not make these three bonuses overpowered for Japanese, we need to reduce a bit their rate of fire bonus for infantry: +10% Feudal, +15% Castle, BUT +20% in Imperial. Same % that the Viking HP bonus.
I'll use the Viking example in this thread (since it's my favourite civ, just a personal choice), but it can be perfectly replaced by any Infantry civ such as Goths, Teutons or Japanese.
Vikings were a top notch land civilisation back in AOK, but now in AOC they are a mid-tier one and they can't compete with Huns/Celts/Aztecs/Mayas/Mongols on land maps with pro players.
The explanation is simple as ****:
Vikings are an infantry civilisation, all their offensive bonuses on land are only based on infantry, and since AOC barracks-line swordmen are UNDERPOWERED cause of Archery and Cavalry massive buffs:
=> Thumb Ring tech, who reduce Archers rate of fire from 2.04 to 1.73 and Cavalry Archers from 2.04 to 1.84
=> Parthian Tactics for cav archers, +1/+2 armor and bonus vs. Spearmen-line
=> Bloodlines which gives a huge +20 HP to all mounted units (even cav archers), and make the civs who recieve that their knights as good as frankish ones, slight difference only for Cavalier and Paladin
And what buff recieve infantry in AOC? +1 pierce armor, lol.
That makes swordman infantry only good to make eight things which they don't even excel at:
- Kill Spearman-line (but archery-line does it quicker)
- Kill Skirmisher-line (but cavalry-line does it quicker)
- Kill Eagle Warriors, with the +6 hidden bonus of Champs vs Eagles (but heavy cavalry does it slightly quicker due to their speed)
- Kill Huskarls (but heavy cavalry does it quicker)
- Kill Rams/Onagers (but cavalry does it quicker)
- Kill Monks (but Light Cavalry does it quicker)
- Kill Buildings, eg Champs get a +3 bonus vs buildings (but Rams does it quicker)
- Kill Light Cavalry (but Spearmen-line does it quicker, and the Byzantine champion can't kill a fully upgraded 118 HP Mongol Hussar, the only exception. Elite Maygar Huszar also can be killed only by Japanese and Viking Champion)
For the rest they get ****ed, even most of the fully upgraded Heavy Camels in each civ that got them kill Champs in 1v1 (exact same rate of fire by the way, WTF an experienced swordman have the same rate of fire as a defensive anti-cavalry unit?!).
Swordmen infantry need a significant buff, and Vikings will become top notch like the other competitive civs for sure. Cause today even Spearmen-line is more used in most of the games than regular infantry lol, such a shame for this mighty class.
Seriously, who has recently see in their last game a Man-at-Arms rush in Feudal? A Long Swordmen rush in Castle? It's as rare as a Knight Rush from Mayans lol
Myself I don't like archery and cavalry, but I never go M@A rush at feudal unless I'm Celt, since they are very sluggish moving, seriously, why people will go for M@A since Scouts for example got -1 attack but are way faster, have more HP with bloodlines researched, and cost no gold?
Here's my suggestion to make them decent and competitive as a good second-line warforce mixed with elite units like Cavalry/Archery/Siege, more two-leg Knight-like, and it will apply to all the civs:
Infantry, infantry, infantry. It needs to stop to be the ugly duckling of the game, period. It is proved that even with their cost, a perfect eco to support them, and even with a "infantry civilization", they can't face efficiently archery and cavalry which was buff like crazy in AoC (supposing two equal skilled players). in fact it's not bad things if infantry got their little buffs as well, so here they come!
These changes are crucial for the rock-paper-scissor balance of AoF:
- All swordmen infantry strikes per second (Throwing Axemen and Spearmen-line excluded): -10% when Squires is researched, like Knights (2.04 to 1.84). A warrior on foot should at least strike as fast as a mounted one, and not as slow as a ****ing camel
N.B: The base ROF for Japanese Samurai is 1.94, so their ROF will in theory be 1.746 in Castle Age;
but combinated with the Japanese infantry bonuses, their ROF will be 1.746 - 15% = 1.4841 in Castle Age, and 1.746 - 20% = 1.3968 in Imperial Age
- Long Swordsman and beyond +1 attack (10 LS, 12 2HS, 14 Champ)
- +5 HP Two-Handed Swordmen (60 to 65 HP) to make a more progressive HP staggering: 60 HP LS, 65 HP 2HS, 70 HP Champ
- Likely to Elite Eagle Warriors who get an hidden bonus of +5 (+8) attack against all siege units (rams), all other swordmen infantry created in Castles, or in Barracks (starting at Long Swordsman) get a more modest +3 attack against all siege units
It will end the OPness of mass Siege Onagers against bad heavy cavalry civilizations without Bombard Cannons, Siege Onagers or Longbowmen (so they can't do **** against mass Siege Onagers) which are Vikings and Japanese
- Long Swordsman upgrade -10 seconds, 45 to 35 seconds, like Crossbowman upgrade
It may look OP, but compared to Archery-line and Cavalry-line huge bonuses that AOC get, it just looks VERY reasonable.
With all that **** Vikings will compete on any land map with their infantry for sure, as they get even more HP to their infantry. They will get feared and not mocked as today, with their Imperial Age 90 HP (75 HP + 20% Viking Bonus) Champion.
AOFE needs to restore the rock/paper/scissor balance for swordsmen infantry, it's very important, since I know that infantry is a favourite class of many people in the AOC community, not as much as Knights or Archery, but Infantry-lovers need to have DECENT units to compete with. Plus, it'll restore the natural balance of the game, all the Infantry based civs such as Teutons, Viks, Japs or Goths will have now the potential to compete against the 5 top civs outta here, civs that I listed in my first sentence.
Last but not least, even non-Infantry civilisations such as Britons or Franks can use their Swordsmen-line more efficiently too. The point is: we need a little more infantry in AoFE, more M@A rushes in Feudal, more Longswords rushes in Castle!!
In my opinion, it's the second major balance issue in this game that need to be resolved, behind dark and feudal economical bonuses that need low-tier civlisations to at least compete militarly in the first ages (Koreans, Turks...). But this is an other subject.
P.S: To not make these three bonuses overpowered for Japanese, we need to reduce a bit their rate of fire bonus for infantry: +10% Feudal, +15% Castle, BUT +20% in Imperial. Same % that the Viking HP bonus.