you are not condom, but you are andorin. i can say that from ur posts. trends like sucking wonder's ****, talking a lot about gr, talking some **** about me or john. Try to make it less obvious next time u try to smurf.
I love Mayans for open maps. No question. They are great, and the raiding capabilities are nearly unmatched.
However, raiding is much less an option on BF, unless you have siege onager. Though I would normally consider Mayans superior to Aztecs in late imperial, trade or otherwise, on Black Forest this is not the case, as it can be significantly harder to break through a line of buildings, walls, and units, to get to the economy beyond. This is not Arabia we're talking about.
Therefore, siege engineers can actually be an important tech in these situations, which, incidentally, is why I favor Vikings slightly in overall BF warfare over Mayans. They can attack sooner, their onagers have siege engineers, their trash is marginally better, and they get champions. Strong champions that take more skirmisher hits.
When it comes to trash war, I have used Franks to great effect ON BLACK FOREST. I have not done too well with them in trash wars on open maps, I freely admit. However, on BF, having an onager or two in reserve, along with lots of buildings to block access past the gap, is a way to victory. A slow way, to be sure, and certainly inferior to what other civilizations may have, but surprisingly effective when talking about gap warfare. A cannon or two, leftover from when gold was common, can really help with enemy onagers, or if they miss siege engineers, the Frank onager can fire first and win.
In this way, I defeated a Briton once. Britons are certainly superior in trash wars on Black Forest; I would consider them third after Spanish and Byzantines. I had to use cannons to take out his skirmishers, as they matched the range of my onagers. My throwing axemen kept him from sending in halberdiers. My halberdiers kept him from sending in light cavalry.
I am currently a CS kick, and will freely admit that today, I played Roll of the Dice. I have not played wallbuilders in weeks. In RM, I prefer megarandom to anything else. BF is my second, and for the record, I prefer playing it unexplored, and I don't like letting it get to a trash war. I prefer to rush and end it before imperial age.
I don't see how anyone can say Turks are better than Franks. Spearmen vs Halberdiers. Skirmishers vs elite skirmishers. Yes, they have hussars instead of light cavalry, but Turks are just plain terrible at trash.
Aztecs have pikemen that beat halberdiers in trash wars, and skirmishers without ring armor. However, they have siege onagers, and a relic bonus, which can hand them the victory through smart play. I was once defeated as Goths by an Aztec in a long trash war, where he played intelligently, using siege onagers, elevation, and walling to his advantage, forcing me to fight in areas where I was not as strong as I could have been. This does not convince me Aztecs are great in trash wars, it convinces me that I was outmaneuvered in map position, and my opponent was an overall better player in trash wars.
I listed Koreans and Vikings as worse because skirmishers are not the be-all end-all in trash wars. In BF, Koreans might actually have an advantage, due to the power of their siege onagers. I was thinking generally, but there may be a point here.
Mayan EEWs cost 320 resources in trash games. "Running them around" enemy forces is much easier on open maps. On hard maps, you can often block. For those same 320 resources, you could make four hussars with other civs, which have a higher chance of being able to run around enemy units because of increased speed.
Let me reiterate: EEWs are great against trash, so long as they cost 70 resources. However, once they cost 320 resources, they lose to hussars. On a side note, 3 EEWs will cost 960 resources, while 3 ETKs will cost 940. Guess which can't be countered by ANY trash or champions? Of course, Teutons are better on BF anyway because they get siege onager.
Let it not be said I denigrated EEWs. They are probably the best overall infantry in the game, with the possible exceptions of woad raiders or huskarls. However, in a trash war, they are significantly pricier than champions, which are probably more effective overall against trash. And on BF, when raiding involves pushing through a line, rather than simply running around it, that matters.
Also, a significant portion of the argument here against me lies in the idea that the Mayan has a bunch of EPA still alive when the trash fighting is in earnest. This is great on open maps, where they can run and strike pretty much at will. However, on BF, plumed archers die fast to onagers. It's much harder to dodge in a gap. Mayans get onagers too, but they miss siege engineers. Killing onagers with trebuchets? assume trebs for thee, but not for me? I think not. Eagles? Much easier to meatshield in a gap.
I guess the point I am trying to get across is that gap warfare is different from open warfare. Try playing michi or BF sometime, letting it get to a trash war with no siege onagers, and then see whether you sing the same tune.
Lastly, I would note that Imperial God has not really made any arguments. He has spent the whole topic flaming me, I guess trying to provoke me. As might be guessed, Nola and Carlos are the ones who have actually caused me to think deeply, as whatever you might have to say about them, neither has engaged in mindless flaming.
Barbarossa took his time explaining his thoughts thoroughly point by point while the rest of you are just spewing insults to him like a little toddler. Imperial God, why don't you EXPLAIN why you think his points are flawed rather than acting all big and bad? Or do you need someone to help teach you how to write complete sentences?
And I've been following pretty much all of Barb's posts on Age of King's Heaven and let me tell you - he taught me almost everything that I needed to know about AoC. Thank you Barbarossa for you contributions on this site and on AoKH. Imperial_God and the rest of you dipshits who like to throw insults around - I dare you to write something even a quarter as good as what Barbarossa wrote.
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