AOE-II DE My boldest Balance suggestion Yet?

[Lord_patito]

So I was thinking about how my beloved Burmese still seems to suck in Open maps, mainly because they keep dying hard to xbows in mid to late Caste and Early imperial. And I'm still trying to find a solution for them.
So I was thinking what could be given to them that will help them with this issue, in this period of the game, and doesn't buff them in other ways: And Suddenly, I thought about something crazy:


Is Free Ballistics OP for Burmese?

Yes, I know it's a huge power spike in early castle age, and will be completely broken for any civ with decent xbows/skirms in castle age. But the thing is Burmese doesn't have either. Once you reach Castle age, your Archers / Skirms are viable for how much more time ? 3 min? 5 min?

Once your opponent have both Castle age upgrades for their archers, yours are useless. Same with the skirms.
Ballistics is a virtually useless tech for burmese (yeah, it improves arambai a little, but just a little, and it's not Arabai are what they once were, a force to be reckon. Nowadays they're an okey Castle unit), so there's no point in building an university, and then researching Ballistic for a civ that can't play ranged units after early castle age.

Also free ballistics could give Burmese a buff for water/hybrid maps (free wood upgrades + free ballistic could make them an okaish water civ). In addition, It will help them with their M@A + towers strategy (only when reaching castle age, but still another small buff).

Last, but not least, I honestly believe that free Ballistic will be just plain OP for any civ with FU xbows, or with good stable and decent skrims in castle age (which it means, virtually every civ)

Anyway, feel free to share your thoughs

 

[Lokalo]

Well it would be huge boost even considering tcs/castles against knights etc. Also even considering this idea you still would need to take off from them xbow, else it's just too huge powerspike, everyone would open xbow early castle age and then switch if you do not kill, but often you would kill with balistics.
Although even without archers, could mass tons of skirms, even without +2, but in bigger numbers and free balistics they could do quite great against xbow I think. free balistics saving 500 wood and 175 gold early game seems just way too OP. Also could could often just go tower defence with free balistics probably

 

[Lord_patito]

Well, you can take out xbow I guess. The main idea is to make skirms more viable during castle age

 

[LowEloNobody]

Probably OP for Burmese given that they get wood upgrades for free. Would make them incredibly scary in early castle age.
On another note though, is the identity of Burmese just to be another Xbow civ? Because if you give them free ballistics, they will play drush/MAA into Xbow in 10000% of games.
Why not buff them in a way that at least makes them unique?

 

[Lord_patito]

Well, I mean as I said before, you might take away xbow. Or put free balistics but after the university is up.

The whole idea is to give something to their skirms while you do the transition to cavalry/siège/elephat/Manipur cavalry hussar/ whatever you are using to stop archers

 

[HongeyKong]

What about removing Franks castle discount and give it to Burmese?

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

+2 arch def

 

[Lord_patito]

+2 arch def

No

 

[wAkKo]

+2 arch def

That's the boring but good solution that many ppl have been asking for. If they dont want to buff arambai, the trade off would be to take away 1 base PA from them.

 

[Shakal]

+2 arch def

but...but...but...identity

 

[Akos04]

No

yes

 

[Lokalo]

Or put free balistics but after the university is up.

That one could be good, probably also would push towards guard tower defense, but might be interesting idea, just not sure if devs can implement it needing university, although I guess could make something similar as for goths, that it's instantly just also doesn't cost anything. But this could be interesting, would give some identity to civ. Just not sure if burmese is the civ that should have this, but overall I would really like to see such thing for a civ.

 

[Lord_patito]

yes

No

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

That's the boring but good solution that many ppl have been asking for. If they dont want to buff arambai, the trade off would be to take away 1 base PA from them.

Arambais are trash anyway xd

 

[Chatusilis_III]

Free ballistics would be OP imo, but how about let them build university and make ballistics in feudal age? Something like cumans with siege workshop/rams.

 

[Freezing_Point]

How about free elite skirm instead? That could buy you a lot of time in early castle age when the crossbow spike is most problematic and let you make the cavalry switch more comfortably.

 

[Lord_patito]

How about free elite skirm instead? That could buy you a lot of time in early castle age when the crossbow spike is most problematic and let you make the cavalry switch more comfortably.

It's a possibility, yes, but that doesn't solve the mid castle to early imp issue

 

[Dkastro]

It's a possibility, yes, but that doesn't solve the mid castle to early imp issue

You would have more wood to go for fast ballistics.

 

[megalopolis]

Fixing Burmese by making them a better archer/skirm civ seems counter to the civ identity.

I'd much rather see the Manipur Cavalry tech changed around a bit. Right now it's an imperial upgrade that's too little too late. Why not have it be a cheaper, more contextually useful castle age upgrade and move Howdah to Imperial?

Assuming enemy Xbows have +2/+2 armor at that stage, you need 14 attack to kill them in 3 hits, 11 attack to kill them in 4. For cav archers with +2/+2 bloodlines, 16 attack to kill in 5 hits, 14 for 6, 12 for 7.

Based on this, Manipur Cav only needs to give +4 attack versus archers to have a big impact there - in fact, you wouldn't even need blacksmith upgrades to kill Xbow in 3 hits with knights and 4 with light cav. And FU castle age knights will take out FU cav archers in 5 hits. Not to mention the extra splash damage from elephants if you go elephant/skirm or something as your approach.

Of course you still need a castle for this, but it opens up the possibility of light cav as a decent cheap castle age option to support your Arambai against archers.

 

[Pinch3Terneira]

Manipur Army: +5 against archers for all land units
https://www.reddit.com/r/VinceMcmahongifs/comments/viiukn

 

[HeavenlyChorus]

units that take wood to upgrade, get 100% wood discount, i.e elite skirms, heavy scorps, galleons, elite cannon galleons
-> stonks

 

[lecracheursagacite]

I recommend we fix this problem by nerfing xbows instead.

 

[Freezing_Point]

Any fix that revolves around hoping a unique technology will save you from archers just seems misguided to me even before the archer player mixes in a few pikes to fend off your cav. I like my elite skirm suggestion because it could actually see practice in time to be helpful and because you then have the option to tech into knights or hussars to deal with archer civs later on. The skirms would make Manipur Cavalry workable, at least in theory.

As for Burmese identity, they're supposed to be an infantry civ, but the only infantry civs that work out as such are ones with an infantry unit that can kill archers, which Burmese don't have.

 

[IYIyTh]

Foreign mercenaries: castles barracks can make ghulams that create 50% more slowly. Ut reduce to 25%

 

[Progeusz]

I recommend we fix this problem by nerfing xbows instead.

This. Crossbow upgrade is way too cheap for what it provides. Everyone pretty much picks it up immediately upon reaching castle no matter how much you harass their eco on the way because it costs almost nothing and gets done nearly instantly.