Looking for an alternative for Round Robin:

Netherlandsnimanoe

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#1
In the AoC community we’ve used the Round Robin Stage a lot. But in my opinion it has a lot of flaws and I think it’s time to try some other methods. I’ve watched quite a bit of Counterstrike and there they mainly use two systems: the GSL system (based on StarCraft I believe) and the Swiss system. I’ll explain the systems quickly for the people who don’t know how the systems work. I'll mostly be using the situation that there are 16 players/teams and half of them will qualify for the Knockout stage, since it's a situation that has happened multiple times and for all systems it's a great scenario (Swiss system won't work nearly as well if there are less than 16 players/teams).

Round Robin:
Quite an easy system, usually the players/teams are divided in groups of 4, but bigger groups are also possible. Every player/team plays the other players/teams in their group. There are a few different scoring systems, usually it’s decided by the amount of games won, but sometimes (like in Nations Cup) the players/teams get points for winning, drawing or losing a series. If there is a draw, it’s still decided by the amount of games won.

GSL system:
In the GSL system you’ll have groups of 4 players/teams which are seeded. The first seed will play the last seed in the first match-up, while the second and third seed will play each other at the same time. The winners of this match-up will then play against each other and the losers will do the same. The winner of the winners match-up is then qualified as first place of the group and the loser of the losers match-up is eliminated as last place of the group. Finally the loser of the winners match-up and the winner of the losers match-up play against each other to decide who will qualify as the second place and who will place third of the group.

Swiss system:
This system is occasionally used already, but not to its full potential in my opinion. To fully make use of this system, you need 16 players/teams or any multiplication of that (so 32 or 64 players/teams). Then ideally you would seed them and let the first seed play against the 9th seed, while the second seed plays the 10th seed etc. Then every player/team that won will only play a player/team that won as well (you can either randomize between these players/teams or use the original seeding again) and every player/team that lost will only play another player/team that lost. Now you’ll have the players/teams divided up into 3 categories: players/teams that won both games, players/teams that won one and lost one and players/teams that lost both match-ups. A player/team in a certain category will only play another player/team in the same category, so a player/team that has lost the first game and won the second will be able to play a player/team that won the first and lost the second.Then the players/teams who won all 3 games are qualified and the players/teams who lost all 3 games are eliminated. Now there are two groups left: the players/teams who won twice and lost once and the players/teams who lost twice and lost once. The players/teams will once again play within their own category and the players/teams with 3 wins will qualify and the players/teams with 3 losses will get eliminated. That leaves only one category: the players/teams with 2 wins and 2 losses. These players/teams will play and the winners will qualify, while the losers are eliminated.

Alternatively you could use the Swiss system, but end it after 3 rounds, so the players/teams with 2 wins and 0 losses as well as the players/teams with 2 wins and 1 loss are qualified to the next stage. This makes the stage 2 weeks shorter, but also makes it a bit more inaccurate.

Now that I’ve explained the systems, let’s look at their advantages and disadvantages.

Round Robin:
Pro’s:
  • You can seed the players/teams by their performance in the group stage.
  • There’s only 3 weeks required in the case of groups of 4 players/teams.
  • Can be used for almost any amount of players/teams.
  • Players/teams aren’t forced to play 1 series per week, but are allowed to play all series in one week.
Cons:
  • The winner can be decided by the third or fourth place. (example: CoT, RiuT taking two games off JorDan, while not taking any from Viper)
  • Players/teams who schedule late get rewarded by less motivated players/teams, since they’re already qualified/eliminated.
  • Not every series has something on the line, especially when the seeding isn’t based on group stage performance.
  • Depending on what scoring system is used, someone who wins every series doesn’t have to be the first place (example: CoT, JorDan won vs everyone, but didn't get first place).

GSL system:
Pro’s:
  • Almost every series has something on the line (either to qualify or get eliminated).
  • The players/teams who qualify can get seeded into two different groups.
  • There’s only 3 weeks required in the case of groups of 4 players/teams.
  • After the initial match-ups, the other match-ups should be really close.
Cons:
  • Players/teams are forced to play 1 series per week, however, the first and last place only have to play 2 series.
  • Can only be used for multiplications of 4 players/teams.
  • Since every series is important, AWs can really screw up the placings.

Swiss System:
Pro’s:
  • After the initial match-ups, the other match-ups should be really close.
  • You can seed the players/teams by their performance in the Swiss system (how fast they qualified, how many games they dropped etc.)
  • Initial seeding isn't as important, since after the first round players/teams will be seeded on their performance, not on their seedings.
Cons:
  • Can ideally only be used for multiplications of 16 players/teams.
  • Goes on for 3-5 weeks, depending how fast you qualify/get eliminated.
  • AWs can really screw with this system as well.
  • Who you have to play can be really random, unless the initial seeding is used or the players/teams are reseeded.

First of all, there have been quite a few improvements on the Round Robin system already (for example 3 points per win and 1 point for a draw like in Nations Cup), but it's still quite flawed. Personally, I'd really like to see the GSL system tried out, since it makes up for some of the flaws of the Round Robin system. The Swiss system can be nice as well, but it can be a bit more luck-based and sensitive to AWs, so I'd prefer not to have it for big tournaments like Nations Cup.

Which system do you like to see? Did I miss some system you'd like to see used? Please comment below!

PS: If this isn't the correct place, the mods can move it, but I wasn't able to add attachments in General AoC Discussion :frown:
 

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Netherlands
#2
We used swiss method in dutch tourneys! It is fun for both low level players and high level players! U will play after 1 game already vs ur own level! It gives way more games aswell!
Then best 4 have only 2 more players played in the end! ^^
 

NetherlandsSiFly

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#3
The swiss system works great for larger tournaments. I've played some Hearthstone tournaments in the past with 128/256 players. Making people play a couple of rounds in the swiss system and just starting a main event with the top X allows you to quickly get rid of a lot of players without doing any seeding. It involves some luck with opponents but it's a great low effort way of getting through a first stage.
 

Netherlandsnimanoe

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#4
We used swiss method in dutch tourneys! It is fun for both low level players and high level players! U will play after 1 game already vs ur own level! It gives way more games aswell!
Then best 4 have only 2 more players played in the end! ^^
The Swiss system I described is slightly different than the way we played it in the dutch cup, since the way we used it in the dutch cup was to get top 4 players out of 19 teams, so players played other players who had a different record than them as well. If there are 16 teams that won't happen, so it's more fair. This system also stops once teams have reached 3 wins instead of going on for a set amount (in case of the dutch cup 7 rounds), so they won't have to play lower rated players once they've played all highest placed players.
 

United Statespatao

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#8
GSL system looks super nice to me :clap: nice idea to bring it up. I hope the next major tournament tries it
 

Brazilandreskbr

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#11
My taste says Swiss system, but I'm not the community. Host small tournaments, make tests, and see what is the setting the players, viewers and admins enjoy the most. AoC could gain extra activity and prepare ideas for next major tournaments.
 

GermanySkittle

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#12
The problem with the swiss system is that there is absolutely no delay possible because u cant even draw the matches of the next round without all matches beeing played.. and after 3-5 rounds it is totally random, we once played like 7 in germany and it was still very close in all positions
 

NetherlandsSiFly

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#13
The problem with the swiss system is that there is absolutely no delay possible because u cant even draw the matches of the next round without all matches beeing played.. and after 3-5 rounds it is totally random, we once played like 7 in germany and it was still very close in all positions
Yeah it forces people to play in time...

And Swiss system is a bad system for anything else than a rough qualifications system.. since people can be lucky with matchups etc. Purely a low effort no seeding requirement to start a tournament off and continue with top 8/16/32.
 

Aland Islandskw1k000000

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#14
GSL system is best. Lowest number of games and keeps every set relevant.

16 teams, 4 groups of 4 teams each. Followed by double elimination for top 8 teams.

More than 16 team tournaments are waste. We could have 8 direct invites and remaining 8 filled by a single elimination qualifier to keep things moving fast.

Round Robin in each rounds involving team of 1600 players is a total waste.
 

Brazilandreskbr

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#15
GSL system is best. Lowest number of games and keeps every set relevant.

16 teams, 4 groups of 4 teams each. Followed by double elimination for top 8 teams.

More than 16 team tournaments are waste. We could have 8 direct invites and remaining 8 filled by a single elimination qualifier to keep things moving fast.

Round Robin in each rounds involving team of 1600 players is a total waste.
The 1600 players who choose to play such settings disagree. Tournament is an unique opportunity to play different settings and take a great challenge.
 

Netherlandsnimanoe

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#16
Is there a comparison of total games(for tournament completion) per system by total # of players?
For 4 players:
Round Robin system has 6 matches.
GSL system has 5 matches.
Swiss system should not be used for 4 players

For 16 players:
Round Robin has 4*6=24 matches (4 groups of 4 players)
GSL system has 4*5=20 matches (4 groups of 4 players)
Swiss system has 8+8+8+6+3=33 matches (played over 5 weeks)
or 8+8+6=22 matches if you're using the shorter, more inaccurate version
 
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Aland Islandskw1k000000

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#17
GSL system is best. Lowest number of games and keeps every set relevant.

16 teams, 4 groups of 4 teams each. Followed by double elimination for top 8 teams.

More than 16 team tournaments are waste. We could have 8 direct invites and remaining 8 filled by a single elimination qualifier to keep things moving fast.

Round Robin in each rounds involving team of 1600 players is a total waste.
The 1600 players who choose to play such settings disagree. Tournament is an unique opportunity to play different settings and take a great challenge.
Nothing stops you or anyone from doing that in rated games.
 

Netherlandsnimanoe

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#18
The problem with the swiss system is that there is absolutely no delay possible because u cant even draw the matches of the next round without all matches beeing played..
Yes, that's a big problem indeed, and giving AWs fast won't really help if the underdog gets the AW, since then for the next round the players/teams who lost will have to play a team way better and players/teams who won will have an easier opponent.

and after 3-5 rounds it is totally random, we once played like 7 in germany and it was still very close in all positions
I don't think the Swiss system should be used to determine at what position players/teams finish, but to determine which players/teams will get eliminated before the next stage of a tournament. Not sure if the players who got 4 wins/losses after the fourth round qualified/got eliminated? If they didn't, then the system would only become less accurate I think, since it is more about luck getting a lower placed opponent, since you'll already have played most people around your own skill.
 

Netherlandsnimanoe

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#19
GSL system is best. Lowest number of games and keeps every set relevant.

16 teams, 4 groups of 4 teams each. Followed by double elimination for top 8 teams.

More than 16 team tournaments are waste. We could have 8 direct invites and remaining 8 filled by a single elimination qualifier to keep things moving fast.

Round Robin in each rounds involving team of 1600 players is a total waste.
The 1600 players who choose to play such settings disagree. Tournament is an unique opportunity to play different settings and take a great challenge.
Nothing stops you or anyone from doing that in rated games.
This topic is about what system to use, not which players are allowed to play.

If you don't want 1600 to play in tournaments, please make your own topic
 

Brazilandreskbr

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#21
GSL system is best. Lowest number of games and keeps every set relevant.

16 teams, 4 groups of 4 teams each. Followed by double elimination for top 8 teams.

More than 16 team tournaments are waste. We could have 8 direct invites and remaining 8 filled by a single elimination qualifier to keep things moving fast.

Round Robin in each rounds involving team of 1600 players is a total waste.
The 1600 players who choose to play such settings disagree. Tournament is an unique opportunity to play different settings and take a great challenge.
Nothing stops you or anyone from doing that in rated games.
With different settings it's impossible. Try to host Ghost lake choose between Goths, Britons, Celts and Japanese and see how much times it takes to find a game. Not to say a TG.

EDIT: Sorry for off topic, but I felt I needed to answer.
 

Aland Islandskw1k000000

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#22
With different settings it's impossible. Try to host Ghost lake choose between Goths, Britons, Celts and Japanese and see how much times it takes to find a game. Not to say a TG.

EDIT: Sorry for off topic, but I felt I needed to answer.
Guess why people don't join those rooms? Don't like it. Its not that hard if you really want, find 4,6,8 players to play what you like and do it.

EDIT: Sorry for off topic, but I felt I needed to answer. Lets stop unless we turn this topic to something else.
 

United StatesAlphaAndOmega

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#23
Round Robin feels most fair to me up to say semifinals. For later stages GSL format. In lower stages people are often just playing for pride anyway. AoC not big enough for people to really play differently (money or fixing, e.g.).

Frankly NC does it perfect for me except for the seeding-->win with otherwise equal points. That's BS! Can always just play another Bo1 there.
 
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#24
Well the "GSL system" which is a copy of the MBC and OGN Tournaments system for SC:geek:W in Korea would be nice for individual tournaments.
 

Netherlandsnimanoe

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#25
For people who are interested in this, someone made a similar post comparing the three systems for CS:GO, you can find it here. The article is much more elaborate than mine and has some good examples, although if you don't know much about CS:GO they might seem a bit random because you don't know how good the teams are.

Some of the suggestions by the guy there is to use some sort of reseeding when you're using the Swiss System model. In BoA this is already the case, so in some ways we are ahead of the CS:GO community 11.
He also suggested that instead of using a seeding model to use the Buchholz system to determine who gets to play who, I think this would be a nice idea for future tournaments that use the Swiss System as well.

He also briefly mentions an 8 team GSL System, here is an example of it, in this case there are three teams that qualify to the next stage, the first place goes immediately to the semi's, while the other two teams go to the quarter finals. With 2 groups like this you would have 6 teams in the next stage instead of the 8 teams if you would use 4 groups of 4 teams. I think this might be interesting to see played out, but first I'd like to see more tournaments that use Swiss System or the normal GSL System.
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