KotD4 | Discussion & Talk

[oozkan]

Kudos to Vinch, people forget that he won against 3 of 4 participants of who is no.2 event, Hera, Yo, Liereyy. He had an amazing tournament.

 

[sheeesh]

Best tournament in a long time. Loved the organization, all the extra things, stats, cocasters and everything.

I just don't like the observer thing, never showing what the casters are talking about. Loved the final day in that regard.

I love you memb and I know the observer simplifies things for the caster, but it's worse for the viewer.

I kinda agree here, feels like observer is more suitable for LAN events.

 

[HarshtJ]

Kudos to Vinch, people forget that he won against 3 of 4 participants of who is no.2 event, Hera, Yo, Liereyy. He had an amazing tournament.

or you can say won against 3 of 4 participants of Tournament Champions League 2020

 

[oozkan]

or you can say won against 3 of 4 participants of Tournament Champions League 2020

Another way to look at it, but when he lost to No.1, tournament made to decide for No.2 seems more clickbait for my post.

 

[OctavianAoe]

What a Tournament!

it was amazing, will personally be remebered as one of the best especially with the saymyname viper set.

Very Happy for Sitaux and Vinchester for their big breakthrough performances which showed us that the future looks bright, and we can have fresh blood break the phalanx of the Veterans.

But also i feel sad for Daniel who had to face lierreyy in first Round and is also maybe just a small step away from a breakout performance.

thank you Memb for this amazing tournament!

 

[Freezing_Point]

Kudos to Vinch, people forget that he won against 3 of 4 participants of who is no.2 event, Hera, Yo, Liereyy. He had an amazing tournament.

Hera wasn't in the who is no.2 event, the other two were Tatoh and MbL, one of whom beat Vinch.

 

[mongoose]

I kinda agree here, feels like observer is more suitable for LAN events.

I liked the observer; I felt that there were many moments when the observer highlighted a development that the casters didn’t immediately notice or focus on.

 

[archxeon]

I liked the observer; I felt that there were many moments when the observer highlighted a development that the casters didn’t immediately notice or focus on.

Are the observer's transitions also smoother? When they had to switch to Memb's POV I kind of felt it was all over the place even though generally I don't really mind streamer's POV.

 

[Rey_Fer]

Are the observer's transitions also smoother? When they had to switch to Memb's POV I kind of felt it was all over the place even though generally I don't really mind streamer's POV.

smoother maybe, memb tends to click a lot everywhere

I liked the observer; I felt that there were many moments when the observer highlighted a development that the casters didn’t immediately notice or focus on.

also true, sometimes, but at the cost of many times being showing something different to what the casters are talking about, being late to show fog of war...

worst of all was never selecting all the units in big fights to compare HP.

I don't think observer makes this unwatchable, overall is OK, but much much worse than having memb's POV

 

[Influenza]

As a seasoned aoe2 stream watcher, i have 0 problems with watching the caster's POV, so to me this whole "observer" position is pretty useless. It's much more annoying to me when the casters have to tell the observer what to look at. But i suppose others may feel differently

 

[Hunyadi_]

Observer works in less complicated games but for AoE2 please stick to caster's POV.

 

It's much more annoying to me when the casters have to tell the observer what to look at.

That's pretty annoying, it's true. But I think it's often the caster itself that can't let go of control rather than the observer not showing what's going on. I personally think the usage of an observer in tournaments is one of the best things that happened to competitive AoE in the last two years - I like it really much. Not having those casters jumping around, forgetting what they want to say while scrolling etc. It's a much smoother viewing experience overall. But the casters itself still need to get used to it and mentally let go of some control (which is probably the hardest part about it).

 

[Breakfast]

Mbl never plays his best against him & Jordan doesn't have any answers.

The idea that MbL has a bad match-up against Viper or can't perform vs him is one I've seen a few times recently and find really interesting - based on recent performances it's hard not to agree, but it's funny to think that it was only two or three years ago that he was the only player who looked like he could consistently take games off Viper, beating him in the first two NACs and having maybe the match of the year against him in the HC2 semis.

Is it true Hidden cup 5 is coming in February?

The last three HCs have all been in March I believe, so assuming it's happening - which I'd say is likely but by no means guaranteed - then that's when I'd expect it.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

The idea that MbL has a bad match-up against Viper or can't perform vs him is one I've seen a few times recently and find really interesting - based on recent performances it's hard not to agree, but it's funny to think that it was only two or three years ago that he was the only player who looked like he could consistently take games off Viper, beating him in the first two NACs and having maybe the match of the year against him in the HC2 semis.


The last three HCs have all been in March I believe, so assuming it's happening - which I'd say is likely but by no means guaranteed - then that's when I'd expect it.

HC2 was in April but the last two HCs being in March is still enough to think March for this one assuming it is happening.

 

[oozkan]

Hera wasn't in the who is no.2 event, the other two were Tatoh and MbL, one of whom beat Vinch.

Really! Totally slipped my mind. Well that works for me better, so our so called experts put Hera in top 10 of all time, who is not even considered top 5 short time ago. Lol.

 

[MaSmOrRa]

Really! Totally slipped my mind. Well that works for me better, so our so called experts put Hera in top 10 of all time, who is not even considered top 5 short time ago. Lol.

Just to clarify: I was the one who sponsored that tournament and I handpicked the players, so it was not based on any input from expert players, I simply invited the players who I personally thought were most likely to be considered number 2 at that time.

Now in my defense, those 4 players were actually the top 4 players after Viper in Tournament Elo back then, so the choice was not totally aleatory.

Hera had just about started to stream full-time I believe, so his "explosion" skill-wise happened shortly after that.

Also worth noting that tournament happened 2 years ago...Which is almost an eternity in today's tournament landscape lol

 

[Dusk2Dawn]

Really! Totally slipped my mind. Well that works for me better, so our so called experts put Hera in top 10 of all time, who is not even considered top 5 short time ago. Lol.

Like in all games, the players got better and better over the years; in dota 2, things that were considered super plays just 5 years ago are now a given, everybody already assumes that the player will have that reflex trained to perfection and will execute 9 out of 10 times

That being said, the current top 10 is the closest to top 10 of all time, no chance for the guys who played when there were 2 viable strats and 3 viable civs , just that nostalgia makes you see things/past through pink glasses; when i see players like halen, tim, kove, grunt placed higher to jordan, hera, yo, mbl AND liereyy, i just laugh; maybe they were strong at their time, which makes that relative strength and it is opposite to ALL TIME; of course pros will try to be more PC than me, but reality stays the same

 

[ltm]

That's a problem with pretty much every all-time list, as long as the sport/game/whatever as a whole evolves over time the harder it get's to compare.

AOE got more professional with many players making a living off streaming this game full-time and also the technological advancement with better PCs, monitors, almost no lag etc. On top of all the knowledge about the game that built up over the years.

So in general it's probably wiser to place players more accordingly to their relative strength at the time, but again that's also difficult because competition isn't always comparable, as well as number of events etc.

 

[Soley]

I liked the observer; I felt that there were many moments when the observer highlighted a development that the casters didn’t immediately notice or focus on.

Absolutely agree with this. There were certainly moments were the observer took a bit too find the scene the casters were talking about. But after watching the analysis of some Experts going through their own games and comparing it to the casters, even the ones who play at a somewhat high level, doing the camera movement themselves – nobody had the same level of awareness when it came to key moments.

Great development by MaPu since his first time as observer and I absolutely hope to see him again in future events.

 

[Beanslinger]

Really! Totally slipped my mind. Well that works for me better, so our so called experts put Hera in top 10 of all time, who is not even considered top 5 short time ago. Lol.

To be fair, Hera has had better results than 99% of Aoe2 players in history.

 

[archxeon]

To be fair, Hera has had better results than 99% of Aoe2 players in history.

If only 100,000 people played any version of AOE2, that would put only him in the top 1000. That is definitely an easy threshold to pass.

If by players you are more specific like for example : "players who have competed in RO 64 or higher in competitive S-tier tournaments", then being in top 1% of that would be impressive. And he probably passes that bar too.

The frequency of S-tier tournaments lately has definitely skewed things a bit.

While, most of the "Top X " are subjective, longevity should be one of the most important factors which I think Hera lacks a bit.

 

[eliz82]

Congrats Memb, it was an amazing tournament. It was fun to watch.
Congrats to Vinch for giving us such unexpected winnings and good fight against Viper.
Vinchester vs Yo game 5 was for me best Arabia game of the year https://youtu.be/tKBdDCpBF0s?t=6684

 

[Beanslinger]

If only 100,000 people played any version of AOE2, that would put only him in the top 1000. That is definitely an easy threshold to pass.

If by players you are more specific like for example : "players who have competed in RO 64 or higher in competitive S-tier tournaments", then being in top 1% of that would be impressive. And he probably passes that bar too.

The frequency of S-tier tournaments lately has definitely skewed things a bit.

While, most of the "Top X " are subjective, longevity should be one of the most important factors which I think Hera lacks a bit.

Okay, he has had better results than 13 of the top 16 AoE2 players in history

 

[archxeon]

Okay, he has had better results than 13 of the top 16 AoE2 players in history

You're probably correct For the criteria you're thinking of but I cant check if its true since you didn't mention it. I checked tournament elo Website and there were 4 people with better tournament results. They were Viper, Daut , Chris and Tatoh. Didn't check every one ofcourse.

 

[polyomavirus]

The idea that MbL has a bad match-up against Viper or can't perform vs him is one I've seen a few times recently and find really interesting - based on recent performances it's hard not to agree, but it's funny to think that it was only two or three years ago that he was the only player who looked like he could consistently take games off Viper, beating him in the first two NACs and having maybe the match of the year against him in the HC2 semis.

It's really interesting to me, too, and for the same reasons. It's fascinating how one can bet on MbL having a good chance at beating people he's beaten somewhat consistently before (Hera, Yo, Vinchester), and always bet against him on people he has almost always lost to (Liereyy, TheViper).

This seems to hold true regardless of his opponent's level of play or preparation.