AOE-HD Idea on how to nerf castle age Eagle Warrior flood

United StatesTocaraca

Known Member
May 18, 2017
654
245
58
17
Florida
Voobly
Tocaraca
View profile
Ladder
RM - 1v1
Rating
1618
Wins
222
Losses
248
Streak
-1
#1
I know that Eagle Warriors were nerfed in patch 5.7 (which is still in beta if you didn't know); their creation time was increased from 32 seconds to 35 seconds, and movement speed decreased from 1.2 to 1.15. These changes might be enough to balance them, but they also might not, so I thought of another idea.

Do you guys remember that when they first added the Eagle Warrior upgrade, it costed 300 food and 300 gold? They reduced it to 200 food and 200 gold in a patch. I don't know why, because clearly eagles are super strong with that upgrade. So my idea is, maybe the upgrade cost could be reduced back to what it used to be. Thoughts?
 

United StatesTocaraca

Known Member
May 18, 2017
654
245
58
17
Florida
Voobly
Tocaraca
View profile
Ladder
RM - 1v1
Rating
1618
Wins
222
Losses
248
Streak
-1
#3
I like this idea but I also think longswords should have a smaller upgrade cost and/or move slightly faster. 0.9 movement speed is garbage. I don't understand why Pikemen, Kamayuks, Samurai, and Jaguar Warriors all get to move at 1.0 speed when Long Swordsmen are stuck at 0.9.
 
Nov 1, 2012
34
0
6
#4
I like this idea but I also think longswords should have a smaller upgrade cost and/or move slightly faster. 0.9 movement speed is garbage. I don't understand why Pikemen, Kamayuks, Samurai, and Jaguar Warriors all get to move at 1.0 speed when Long Swordsmen are stuck at 0.9.
Samurai and Jaguar Warriors move faster but they are more difficult to produce then militia line. I think the speed is ok since eagles are meant to replace mounted units.
 

United StatesTocaraca

Known Member
May 18, 2017
654
245
58
17
Florida
Voobly
Tocaraca
View profile
Ladder
RM - 1v1
Rating
1618
Wins
222
Losses
248
Streak
-1
#5
Samurai and Jaguar Warriors move faster but they are more difficult to produce then militia line. I think the speed is ok since eagles are meant to replace mounted units.
Yeah I kinda get Samurai and Jaguar Warriors and Kamayuks (since they need a castle), but even Pikemen move faster than the militia line yet they're even easier to produce! :frown:

Also yeah I'm fine with eagles moving fast, like cavalry, and I think speed is way overvalued by most people, they think "longswords are bad vs eagles since they can't catch up to them" but this is the case for lots of unit counters, and you can still go offensive with longswords and pressure buildings. The reason people don't make Pikemen to deal with Knights is not because of the speed difference but because of the upgrade cost; Ethiopians always make pikes in castle age to counter Knights, which says a lot about how important the speed difference is (not that important). If the Long Swordsman upgrade wasn't so bloody expensive then it would be fine.
 

Hungarymisafeco

Known Member
Feb 17, 2012
294
182
58
27
Budapest, Hungary
Voobly
misafeco
View profile
Ladder
RM - Team Games
Rating
1673
Wins
78
Losses
59
Streak
1
#6
I like this idea but I also think longswords should have a smaller upgrade cost and/or move slightly faster. 0.9 movement speed is garbage. I don't understand why Pikemen, Kamayuks, Samurai, and Jaguar Warriors all get to move at 1.0 speed when Long Swordsmen are stuck at 0.9.
Well Swordsmen are supposed to wear armor which slows them down. The same reason why Light Cav is faster than Kts. It's ridiculous that the Swordsmen line has the same melee armor (0) as the Spear line (until Champs where they get 1). And people wonder why barely anyone uses them.
 

Ireland_Melkor

Halberdier
Jun 20, 2011
1,404
464
88
#7
Long swords are a terrible idea in the castle age, and are terrible vs eagles, because its too big an investment for something that dies so horribly to crossbowmen.
Adding melee armour to them won't make any difference at all.
 

United StatesTocaraca

Known Member
May 18, 2017
654
245
58
17
Florida
Voobly
Tocaraca
View profile
Ladder
RM - 1v1
Rating
1618
Wins
222
Losses
248
Streak
-1
#8

Ireland_Melkor

Halberdier
Jun 20, 2011
1,404
464
88
#9
Speed would help but ultimately the problem is that they are a terrible combo unit. In castle age you want kt + archer or ew + archer because of the mixture of pierce armour/ high hp and archer units. Long swordsmen have neither, so even if you could convince the ew to stay still and fight, ew + xbow would still win over long sword + xbow.
 

United StatesTocaraca

Known Member
May 18, 2017
654
245
58
17
Florida
Voobly
Tocaraca
View profile
Ladder
RM - 1v1
Rating
1618
Wins
222
Losses
248
Streak
-1
#10
Well that's clearly BS because Ethiopians frequently do Pikemen + Crossbowmen and it works fine vs Knights + Crossbowmen
 

United StatesTocaraca

Known Member
May 18, 2017
654
245
58
17
Florida
Voobly
Tocaraca
View profile
Ladder
RM - 1v1
Rating
1618
Wins
222
Losses
248
Streak
-1
#12
Pikemen=/=Longswords
In this context (following Melkor's logic) they're very similar, they have low HP and low pierce armor rather than high HP and high pierce armor which means that Pikemen + Crossbowmen should lose to Knights + Crossbowmen (the same way that apparently Long Swordsmen + Crossbowmen should lose to Eagle Warriors + Crossbowmen).
 

Unknownasdfasdfasdf1

Active Member
Jul 13, 2017
137
195
43
#13
Pikemen=/=Longswords
In this context (following Melkor's logic) they're very similar, they have low HP and low pierce armor rather than high HP and high pierce armor which means that Pikemen + Crossbowmen should lose to Knights + Crossbowmen (the same way that apparently Long Swordsmen + Crossbowmen should lose to Eagle Warriors + Crossbowmen).
let's just forget they cost less than half of LS and move ~15% faster
 

United StatesTocaraca

Known Member
May 18, 2017
654
245
58
17
Florida
Voobly
Tocaraca
View profile
Ladder
RM - 1v1
Rating
1618
Wins
222
Losses
248
Streak
-1
#14
let's just forget they cost less than half of LS and move ~15% faster
Pikemen cost 35 food and 25 wood whereas Long Swordsmen cost 60 food and 20 gold, that's 60 resources compared to 80 resources, which is 2/3 the price, not "less than half" the price. And even if we take into account the fact that longswords cost more food (and food is the most difficult resource to aquire in castle age), it's still 3.06 villager minutes to gather the amount of resources for a Pikeman whereas it's 4.5 villager minutes for a Long Swordsman, which is still not "less than half." Pikes also move 11% faster than LS, not 15% faster. Not sure where you're getting your numbers from.

Still I get the point. I do think making LS move as fast as pikes (1.0 speed) and decreasing the upgrade cost would be very beneficial for longswords and make them as approachable as Pikemen are to be used against Knights (which is still not great if you're not Ethiopians or Goths but is still better than going LS).
 

Canada_Ra_

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2010
1,404
115
68
#15
Speed would help but ultimately the problem is that they are a terrible combo unit. In castle age you want kt + archer or ew + archer because of the mixture of pierce armour/ high hp and archer units. Long swordsmen have neither, so even if you could convince the ew to stay still and fight, ew + xbow would still win over long sword + xbow.
In 2005-2007 time there were a lot of Celts vs Aztecs games with long swords + mangonel combo dominating.

Micro evolved a lot though, so you might be right

I always thought facing AZtecs with Celts is a walk in the park for Celts...
 

Unknownasdfasdfasdf1

Active Member
Jul 13, 2017
137
195
43
#16
let's just forget they cost less than half of LS and move ~15% faster
Pikemen cost 35 food and 25 wood whereas Long Swordsmen cost 60 food and 20 gold, that's 60 resources compared to 80 resources, which is 2/3 the price, not "less than half" the price. And even if we take into account the fact that longswords cost more food (and food is the most difficult resource to aquire in castle age), it's still 3.06 villager minutes to gather the amount of resources for a Pikeman whereas it's 4.5 villager minutes for a Long Swordsman, which is still not "less than half." Pikes also move 11% faster than LS, not 15% faster. Not sure where you're getting your numbers from.

Still I get the point. I do think making LS move as fast as pikes (1.0 speed) and decreasing the upgrade cost would be very beneficial for longswords and make them as approachable as Pikemen are to be used against Knights (which is still not great if you're not Ethiopians or Goths but is still better than going LS).
mb meant less than half the food. It's even worse than that because you need to invest a lot of wood into farms
 

United StatesTocaraca

Known Member
May 18, 2017
654
245
58
17
Florida
Voobly
Tocaraca
View profile
Ladder
RM - 1v1
Rating
1618
Wins
222
Losses
248
Streak
-1
#17
mb meant less than half the food. It's even worse than that because you need to invest a lot of wood into farms
Nope, that's already factored in to my calculation. The 16.5 food per minute that I use is also taking into account the amount of time it takes to get the wood for a farm.
 
Sep 29, 2010
252
1
18
#18
If there is a nerf it should be small. Remember meso don't get knights. Also longswords could be buffed a bit. Make it a cheaper upgrade and/or give them +1 armor and a little more speed.
 

Ireland_Melkor

Halberdier
Jun 20, 2011
1,404
464
88
#21
Speed would help but ultimately the problem is that they are a terrible combo unit. In castle age you want kt + archer or ew + archer because of the mixture of pierce armour/ high hp and archer units. Long swordsmen have neither, so even if you could convince the ew to stay still and fight, ew + xbow would still win over long sword + xbow.
In 2005-2007 time there were a lot of Celts vs Aztecs games with long swords + mangonel combo dominating.

Micro evolved a lot though, so you might be right

I always thought facing AZtecs with Celts is a walk in the park for Celts...
I can see why long swordsmen and mangenol could theoretically be strong vs meso, however its an incredibly slow and fragile combo that can only work if the opponent wants to fight head on. Just mangenols and crossbowmen would beat that also. Basically if you lose the mangenol protection then the long swordsmen are dead meat.
Nowadays if you played any expert using that tactic they would either run around your base in circles with faster units or micro to kill the mangenols when you arent paying attention.
 

United StatesTocaraca

Known Member
May 18, 2017
654
245
58
17
Florida
Voobly
Tocaraca
View profile
Ladder
RM - 1v1
Rating
1618
Wins
222
Losses
248
Streak
-1
#22
I can see why long swordsmen and mangenol could theoretically be strong vs meso, however its an incredibly slow and fragile combo that can only work if the opponent wants to fight head on
Couldn't the same logic could apply to Monks+Mangonels, except that's even worse because Monks are even more fragile and micro-intensive than Long Swordsmen?
 

Ireland_Melkor

Halberdier
Jun 20, 2011
1,404
464
88
#23
If we are talking about playing vs meso civs, then monks mangs are a terrible idea and I'm not disputing that. They are slow and fragile and ew completely destroy them. (some exceptions in aztec war when monks have ew support).

Vs non meso civs, the difference is that longswords are terrible vs kts, whereas monks are very strong vs kts. In addition monks with redemption allow automatic wins in a mang war; assuming decent micro.
Tbh I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make.
 

United StatesTocaraca

Known Member
May 18, 2017
654
245
58
17
Florida
Voobly
Tocaraca
View profile
Ladder
RM - 1v1
Rating
1618
Wins
222
Losses
248
Streak
-1
#24
If we are talking about playing vs meso civs, then monks mangs are a terrible idea and I'm not disputing that. They are slow and fragile and ew completely destroy them. (some exceptions in aztec war when monks have ew support).

Vs non meso civs, the difference is that longswords are terrible vs kts, whereas monks are very strong vs kts. In addition monks with redemption allow automatic wins in a mang war; assuming decent micro.
Tbh I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make.
My point was that, if Monks + Mangonels is good against non-meso civs, then why isn't Long Swordsmen + Mangonels good vs meso civs?
 

Ireland_Melkor

Halberdier
Jun 20, 2011
1,404
464
88
#25
Vs non meso civs, the difference is that longswords are terrible vs kts, whereas monks are very strong vs kts. In addition monks with redemption allow automatic wins in a mang war; assuming decent micro.
In addition monks dont scatter all over the place every time you go back to check the eco.


Against meso this combo cannot die to kts which admittedly makes it seem strong, but long swords can only kill ew and thats it. Any loss of mangenols and its full retreat (in the best of cases). In addition this combo requires every type of resource, and is inefficient economy wise. Aztecs and incas can both research redemption which then allows them both to go full crossbowmen + monk vs longswords and mangenol. Not only is this combo more efficient with the resources it costs but it annihilates longswordsmen. With regard to mayans they can simply make full mangenol + xbow vs mangenol longsword. Or even could just make full mangenol with micro. Tbh all meso civs can pretty easily counter it by just making crossbows and their own mangenols

Monks + mangenols counter kts and archers and basically every unit that gets converted by monks easily. Only counters are light cavalry (which gets countered by adding a few pikemen) and lots of infantry. (which doesn't really work if the monk player does good micro) In general, monks can work very well even if the mangenols die, unless outnumbered by a lot.
For a lot of civs there really isn't any brute force counter to monks and mangeols until the imperial age. This combo cannot be simply countered by crossbowmen mangenol simply because the monks with redemption can convert the mangenols of the opponent player.

In summary the 3 main differences are that:
Monk mangenol can counter practically everything in a brute force battle (excepting LC), whereas longswordsmen mangenols have a few easy brute force counters from meso civs.
Monks can survive by themselves with good micro, whereas longswordsmen by themselves are practically useless.
Monk mangenol is better for the eco than longswordsmen mangenol.
 

Time

Your time
G M T
Your zone

Upcoming Events

EscapeTV Launch Event - Day 1
Friday 22:00 (GMT +01:00)
TheViper, TaToH, MbL & Liereyy on LAN
Masters of Rome - Semifinals - Bo5
Saturday 03:30 (GMT +01:00)
TLC1 vs APO /
Improvement Cup 3v3
Saturday 11:00 (GMT +01:00)
Group A: Gurkentruppe vs. A real estate agent, a tradie, a sales rep and a Mafiosi
Improvement Cup 4v4
Saturday 11:00 (GMT +01:00)
Group C: [ Australia/New Zealand ] vs How To Train Your dRoggan
Improvement Cup 3v3
Saturday 14:00 (GMT +01:00)
Group A: Gurkentruppe vs. Nubteam and Friends
Improvement Cup 4v4
Saturday 16:00 (GMT +01:00)
Group D: Schmetterlings vs [French Community]
Improvement Cup 3v3
Saturday 16:00 (GMT +01:00)
Group B: Australia D vs Russia F
EscapeTV Launch Event - Day 2
Saturday 21:00 (GMT +01:00)
TheViper, TaToH, MbL & Liereyy on LAN
Improvement Cup 4v4
Sunday 11:30 (GMT +01:00)
Group A: Team Straya/NZ vs new Chapter
EscapeTV Launch Event - Day 3
Sunday 15:00 (GMT +01:00)
TheViper, TaToH, MbL & Liereyy on LAN
Improvement Cup 4v4
Sunday 16:00 (GMT +01:00)
Group D: [USA] vs Team Schmetterling
Improvement Cup 4v4
Monday 17:00 (GMT +01:00)
Group B: Team India vs PavPlebs
KotD2 - Quarterfinals
January 26th 16:30 (GMT +01:00)
Quarterfinals Day#1
KotD2 Quarterfinals
January 27th 16:30 (GMT +01:00)
Quarterfinals Day#2

Age Of Empires On Twitch

There are in total 35 streamers online
Click here for details
Age of Empires II 1086 viewers
Age of Empires II 346 viewers
Age of Empires II 268 viewers
Age of Empires II 55 viewers
Age of Empires II 44 viewers
Top