HC5 – The Wishlish

[Mleder]

need: one fast nomad map, such as bedouins.

 

[D_Cool]

HC4 overall was great, watched almost every game (on a second screen). Some things I think were great and would love to see in HC5:

• Highlight video of the Qualifiers (by @K1_ ) I really hope there will be one of the Main event as well. Perhaps you could make vids about highlights from previous hidden cups as well to show in the breaks.
• CaptureAge was amazing, really improved on their previous versions. The stats page and the playback mode are sick! The extra information also makes it a lot more user-friendly.
• I liked most of the new maps and I think it was a good decision to not let all of them get played until the Main Event. I was a bit worried that it would result in maps that weren't play-tested enough and would result in unfair civ matchups or had unfair generations, but that wasn't the case, so well done!
• Stats on the overlay were fun as well as the fanzone and pro players predictions (well done @dux )
• Hidden Cup Guessing videos were very well produced as usual, but I agree that we've seen the same four or five players in pretty much every Hidden Cup. I would love to see more videos like the boar luring one where it shows new or inexperienced viewers some insight in how to guess the players. I think you could do something similar for farm placement and autofarm/queue farm in mill (would fit well with the t90Farms meme) and other small stuff like that.
• Casting was great! Hallis and slam showed great insight, Dash is always great to have on a broadcast and Nili didn't show any rust. Dave is the best cocaster for a reason and made listening to T90 bearable
• Guessing form worked flawless. I would suggest to make it public a bit earlier though. After all Ro16 sets have been played and we've seen each player, why not make it public? Now you're excluding people who weren't able to watch the Grand Finals, even though they watched everything else. Maybe it's still in the works, but I think it's also good to share the results or let people know where they can see how many people they guessed correct. The data is also interesting and if the form is open earlier you could maybe show it before semi's and grand final (according to 19% of the viewers we're watching Jordan vs Hera here).
• The qualifiers showed a great level and on it's own could warrant a tournament. My only complaint is that the map pool was a bit small due to some maps being saved for the Main Event.

Now onto some things that I'd love to see improved in HC5:

• The homemaps situation. It shouldn't be possible for one player to have 3 homemaps, while the other one has just one.
• Set maps. I don't think they're needed as players will prepare for the tournament with a prizepool this high. It can also be a bit unfair to a player who's naturally more gifted in one type of map (Arabia for some, Islands for others)
• Invitations. I don't think it makes much sense to invite the top 8 from this tournament to the next tournament, especially given how competitive the scene is right now. I think it would be better to look at the result of the latest tournaments instead of just looking at Hidden Cup.
• Finals played live. It's not going to be fair if one player has to play at a really late or early time, while the other is used to play at that time or is less affected by playing at a weird time. Considering that the rest of the tournament uses recorded games, I don't think people will really complain if you do the same for the finals. It also makes people try to eliminate people by looking at who's in the Twitch chat or who's online on Steam etc. On top of that there's probably less delay between games, so you can finish a bit faster and will have less people leave in the downtime.

I agree with almost all of this although I do prefer a live final as as the match not having happened yet is the only 100% guarantee that there’s no way the result can be spoiled.

Thinking about the way the new maps were introduced. I liked the way it gave players the opportunity to prep strats but I would have liked 2 new maps for the qualifiers and keep 2 for the main event. Reasoning being that if you have a tournament that wants to reward prep and innovation, it makes sense to give players who do that in the qualifiers a higher chance of making the main event. Also felt a bit weird in the deciders of the qualifiers when all 7 maps were played

I also wonder if the limited time to prep strats somehow worked against instead of for variance in strategies as players maybe didn’t have enough experimenting time for so many maps. Maybe an extra week or two would have helped.

Absolutely incredible tournament all in all though!

 

[NuclearPasta]

I think the Hidden Cup idea and format for all four we've gotten to see are great. Trying to guess who is who in the brackets is fun, the level of play and competitiveness getting higher and higher over the years is impressive to see, and I've generally liked the maps made specifically for the tournament. That said I think this Hidden Cup especially highlights some areas that need improvement,

The home map oversight is the first in my mind. Throughout the tournament T90 hyped up the level of play of those competing and their prepared strategies. Map picks and civ drafts were talking points at the beginning of every played set. HC4 had some of the best games of AoE2, and I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to attribute that, at least in part, to the prominence players put on maps and civs. Which is why it was utterly frustrating to see one player get to play three of their home maps while their opponent only got to play a single of their home maps. While I don't say that to take away from Hera's win that set was so close it could have gone to the Viper if they played on an even amount of home maps. I hope that in future events and tournaments the rules will be made with this in mind, to avoid things like that in the future.

Another major issue in terms of competitive play is having players play on servers that aren't ideal for them, simply to hide their identity from their opponent. According to Viper's statement on HC4 MbL and Jordan had to play on the East US server, which added an additional 70 ping. That's enough of a difference for even a noob like me to notice. It's ridiculous to force players to play extra ping just to hide their identities, especially when most players at that level can tell who they're playing by playstyle, nevermind players being allowed to pick colors and type in chat which gave several players away very early. Hidden players should primarily be for the viewers in my opinion, players shouldn't be purposely disadvantaged just to hide their identities from each other.

I also would prefer that all sets for a tournament like this be played ahead of time and recs be casted. This would significantly cut down on streaming time for the finals, where we were often waiting 5-10 minutes in between games, just waiting for them to start. After the John the Fearless vs. Ivaylo semi-finals being as exciting as they were I don't think recorded games draws away from the hype of the tournament at all.

Last major issue is that of stream time. I, for the most part, greatly enjoyed the main event for HC4, but it was way too long. At the end of every day I just wanted sets to end fast. 8-10 hours is not just a huge investment of time, it's tiring to watch Age for that long. Perhaps in the future Ro16 can be played during one weekend with semis and finals following at the next weekend. Again, the John the Fearless vs. Ivaylo set serves as a good example for feedback; streaming too many games for too long will greatly impact the excitement and hype of the tournament. T90 had the most viewers during a semi-final, not the finals itself.

To reiterate, Hidden Cup, especially Hidden Cup 4, has shown some of the most impressive and advanced game play in Age of Empires 2, and was overall thrilling to watch. Improvements can be made on both the tournament format and stream elements however. I hope T90 and the event admins will take the feedback and constructive criticism given in this thread and use it to make the next event even better, for both players and viewers alike.

 

[HungryHungryHussars]

So to summarise my thoughts, I think the format of Hidden Cup is fantastic, but in the context of the competitive AoE2 scene it just has a really odd place. The prestige and prize pool to me seem disproportionate to the unfairness that naturally comes with the format. In my opinion, a solution would be to reduce the funding for Hidden Cup somewhat, and put it towards a strictly competitive 1v1 RM tournament with mixed maps, either online or -eventually- as a LAN event. Perhaps even a collaboration between multiple major tournament organisers would be amazing. I know that there are a lot of factors and interests that will make it very difficult to organise, but one can dream I guess.

100%

It's time for Escape to return.

 

[Mollask]

Also supporting the idea of a large RM event with mixed maps.

Feedback specifically to HiddenCup: Is there a way to keep TwitchStream running after the event, so you can watch it afterwards without being spoiled by the length? So it always looks like an 7-game-final? Something I wish from every stream, t.b.h.

 

[Semisky]

I feel it disappointing that some of the maps and civs have little or no chance of being used. I would be nice if add mechanism of having 2 games of random maps and add 1 or 2 mirror random civ in the civ pool.

Also I like the hidden things, but don’t like putting too much focus on guessing. I especially question the phenomenon where you judge this player is not so good and it is Barles.

i have mixed feelings about having recs released after next round. On one hand it makes it more hidden to players, on the other hand, players who are friends or in the same clan, might leak opponent/oneself info to each other, which makes it unfair.

 

[ponciliano]

So to summarise my thoughts, I think the format of Hidden Cup is fantastic, but in the context of the competitive AoE2 scene it just has a really odd place. The prestige and prize pool to me seem disproportionate to the unfairness that naturally comes with the format. In my opinion, a solution would be to reduce the funding for Hidden Cup somewhat, and put it towards a strictly competitive 1v1 RM tournament with mixed maps, either online or -eventually- as a LAN event. Perhaps even a collaboration between multiple major tournament organisers would be amazing. I know that there are a lot of factors and interests that will make it very difficult to organise, but one can dream I guess.

HC5 has the biggest prizepool because it gets the most viewers and most subs. Simple as that. If a LAN event would get 60k viewers and top 20 twitch subs, it would be the most funded one.

I see some people complaining about the hidden aspect of hidden cup. But isn't that the essence of the event in the end? If we were to use a non-random seeding system on the players, we would have a lot more of clues to guess who is who. That would make the event less true to its purpose. Same if they would let players tell their teammates their identities and things like that. The main purpose of the event is to have FUN, not for everybody to be tryharding around. And that's why it's so successful in my eyes.

But as a viewer, I also couldn't really enjoy some things and I would like to see them fixed in HC5 if that's the organizer's wish. To summarize them:

1- Islands map. That map SUCKS. I get the pure water aspect, but damn, a lot of the games simply aren't enjoyable and turn into a feitoria shitshow. I think that, if something isn't enjoyable for the viewers in this kind of event, it should just be either revamped or removed. Some people would miss Islands, but they would watch the event regardless of it.

2- The home map problem. Obviously players should have equality in that aspect, to play the same number of homemaps in a match. I don't understand what made the organizers think giving a 3:1 homemap ratio to one of the players would be a fair system.

3- The fact that no meme hero (cobra car, god's own sling, warwolf etc.) ever makes it past quarterfinals in ANY of the 4 Hidden Cups so far is a big bummer in the event for me and I believe for most viewers. Robo could rig the system a bit to give the meme heroes to the top 4 players. Kappa

 

[SaladEsc]

Good points
I guess we have 2 feedback threads now

Hidden Cup 4 | Feedback & Ideas

If you have any feedback on the existing format or any ideas to improve Hidden Cup 4 please post here to keep feedback in a central location. If you have a favorite hero name that you would like to see used let us know in the Hero Suggestions Thread!

www.aoezone.net

 

[Breakfast]

HC5 has the biggest prizepool.

The main purpose of the event is to have FUN, not for everybody to be tryharding around.

I think the problem a lot of people have - certainly one of my biggest issues with the HC series - is that these two statements are about the same event.

 

[ponciliano]

I think the problem a lot of people have - certainly one of my biggest issues with the HC series - is that these two statements are about the same event.

That's no coincidence though. As I explained in my post, it has the biggest prizepool because it gets the most viewers and subs. It's the viewers that put money into the game, not the pros. So viewer experience should always be the priority, no matter the prizepool. That's the hard truth the pros should deal with.

I really question if a tryhard LAN event would ever get the same viewers and subs. If it did, it WOULD have a bigger prizepool. In the moment, it simply doesn't, but maybe someday it will.

 

[Elvaenor]

That's no coincidence though. As I explained in my post, it has the biggest prizepool because it gets the most viewers and subs. It's the viewers that put money into the game, not the pros. So viewer experience should always be the priority, no matter the prizepool. That's the hard truth the pros should deal with.

I really question if a tryhard LAN event would ever get the same viewers and subs. If it did, it WOULD have a bigger prizepool. In the moment, it simply doesn't, but maybe someday it will.

To be honest, I think HC4 has the biggest pricepool because T90 as a person has shown his succes in organizing events. I think if T90 would organize a 'standard' mixed map tournament, with the same pricepool while keeping it more competitive and fair, the same amount of viewers could be reached simply because it's T90 who's organizing and hyping it up as a person, not the tournament itself perse.

Congratulations to T90 for making HC4 the succes it was! It's really awesome to see how his dedication for the age community has done wonders in terms of viewership and popularity. Other than that I don't think I have too much to add from what already has been said. I really enjoyed the tournament overall, but personally I'd have enjoyed it even more if it was spread out slightly more with fair brackets to make it more competitive. Hopefully HC5 can step down as a more gimmicky tournament with a smaller pricepool but keeping it fun nonetheless, with another flagship tournament for T90 with more standard settings.

 

[Breakfast]

That's no coincidence though. As I explained in my post, it has the biggest prizepool because it gets the most viewers and subs. It's the viewers that put money into the game, not the pros. So viewer experience should always be the priority, no matter the prizepool. That's the hard truth the pros should deal with.

I really question if a tryhard LAN event would ever get the same viewers and subs. If it did, it WOULD have a bigger prizepool. In the moment, it simply doesn't, but maybe someday it will.

What Elvaenor said: HC is the biggest tournament because T90 is the biggest streamer, and he could have equal success with many types of event. Viewer experience is tremendously important in AoE as in any sport or esport, but I don't believe for a second that a good show precludes the possibility of a fair one.

The practical aspects aside, in principle I think an esport's largest prizes and most prestigious trophies should be won in the fairest settings possible. Hidden Cup has been a great ride, but as things stand now, I think an evolution into something different, or else a division into two events - one for fun and one for competition - would be the best thing for the whole community. I believe the last two NACs both broke viewer records for competitive AoEII, so there's definitely an appetite for this kind of thing.

 

[binhgl4321]

Big problem is viewers can guess the players when the players chatting (vivi, bacty, tatoh...) so just ask players using common words.

 

[Faraday]

I wish It'd be next weekend, is it too much to ask? 11
One of the most excited tournament I ever watch.

 

[ponciliano]

To be honest, I think HC4 has the biggest pricepool because T90 as a person has shown his succes in organizing events. I think if T90 would organize a 'standard' mixed map tournament, with the same pricepool while keeping it more competitive and fair, the same amount of viewers could be reached simply because it's T90 who's organizing and hyping it up as a person, not the tournament itself perse.

Congratulations to T90 for making HC4 the succes it was! It's really awesome to see how his dedication for the age community has done wonders in terms of viewership and popularity. Other than that I don't think I have too much to add from what already has been said. I really enjoyed the tournament overall, but personally I'd have enjoyed it even more if it was spread out slightly more with fair brackets to make it more competitive. Hopefully HC5 can step down as a more gimmicky tournament with a smaller pricepool but keeping it fun nonetheless, with another flagship tournament for T90 with more standard settings.

What you guys seem to struggle to understand is that, well, doing things for fun is T90's niche. He grew up his community, and is arguably the most succesful aoe 2 streamer, by doing his wacky, creative content. That's what T90's fans look for, and that's his identity.

The more serious guys, like Memb and Nili, have their funding and do their tournaments with more serious settings. But it isn't anyone's fault that the content most people look for (and keep in mind that aoezone is a TINY community compared to all aoe2 fans) is the kind of content T90 provides. And that's what he knows best how to do.

Of course T90 might hear your feedbacks and adapt to a more serious settings for his most funded tournaments, but it's not like he SHOULD. He can stay doing what he's doing and keep the guaranteed success he's been having so far, and there's nothing wrong with it. And pretty surely most of the community would enjoy it.

Also we should consider that, if he splits his prizepool between a Hidden Cup and a more serious tournament, his tournaments won't get the biggest prizepool anymore...

Another fact that we have to consider is that, if HC5 gets a smaller prizepool, the pros will simply see it as a smaller wacky tournament and won't nearly deal with it as seriously as they should. Some pros have precedent of shitting over smaller-pooled tournaments and showmatches, not caring about sponsor's and viewer's opinions etc.

I'm personally fine with pros having to accept the fact that such a wacky tournament has the biggest prizepool of them all, and they have to deal with it. That's entertaining to think about.

 

[Giuseppe551]

I don't think anyone is struggling to understand anything. Unlike you, we just don't want the biggest tournament of the year to have the least competitive settings.

 

[ponciliano]

I don't think anyone is struggling to understand anything. Unlike you, we just don't want the biggest tournament of the year to have the least competitive settings.

Yeah you're struggling to understand everything and most people here also are judging by the likes you obtained. For me it's fine that the biggest tournament would be the most competitive and serious as well, and I would love that. But I'm saying it's apparently not possible to happen at the very moment, because most people are willing to watch and donate and sub for a less serious tournament. If this wasn't the case, it would be Memb or Nili that would obtain 60k viewers and top 20 twitch subs when hosting their tournaments, not T90.

I'm not stating what I want here. I'm stating the facts. What we want doesn't matter, because aoezone is just a small bubble compared to the whole aoe2 community.

 

[Elvaenor]

If this wasn't the case, it would be Memb or Nili that would obtain 60k viewers and top 20 twitch subs when hosting their tournaments, not T90.

I'm not stating what I want here. I'm stating the facts. What we want doesn't matter, because aoezone is just a small bubble compared to the whole aoe2 community.

That's not how it works, Nili and Memb are not as popular on twitch as T90 by a long shot, that makes a huge difference in the viewer numbers. Btw, Nili did also break viewer records with NAC so this statement doesn't make sense anyway, memb also got massive viewernumbers with his KOTD tournament, albeit less than with Nili or T90. This may be due to the tournament but it seems obvious to me that this is because Memb just doesn't have the same reach as T90 and Nili.
T90 got the most viewers for his HC because he's the biggest streamer. The event he hosted this time was HC to bring in the big numbers, but it could as well be a more competitive tournament.

What you guys seem to struggle to understand is that, well, doing things for fun is T90's niche. He grew up his community, and is arguably the most succesful aoe 2 streamer, by doing his wacky, creative content. That's what T90's fans look for, and that's his identity.

T90 himself is a top 100 player, so he's got a very competitve mindset himself as well. He's hosted big and popular showmatches before that also drew in thousands of viewers. Saying that he's only doing wacky and creative content as a niche is selling him short by a large margin.

 

[ponciliano]

That's not how it works, Nili and Memb are not as popular on twitch as T90 by a long shot, that makes a huge difference in the viewer numbers. Btw, Nili did also break viewer records with NAC so this statement doesn't make sense anyway, memb also got massive viewernumbers with his KOTD tournament, albeit less than with Nili or T90. This may be due to the tournament but it seems obvious to me that this is because Memb just doesn't have the same reach as T90 and Nili.
T90 got the most viewers for his HC because he's the biggest streamer. The event he hosted this time was HC to bring in the big numbers, but it could as well be a more competitive tournament.


T90 himself is a top 100 player, so he's got a very competitve mindset himself as well. He's hosted big and popular showmatches before that also drew in thousands of viewers. Saying that he's only doing wacky and creative content as a niche is selling him short by a large margin.

Yeah and why is T90 the biggest streamer, with most viewers and subs by far? Is it by coincidence, or is it because his style fits most aoe2 consumers' taste? You're almost getting my point...

T90's biggest events are the World Cup and HC, both of which have somewhat unfair and wacky settings. That's just his style, and that's what most people want to see. That's the sad truth. I don't know if T90 could be as competent in organizing a huge serious event, apparently that's simply not his style.

And I don't know if the same number of people would watch such event. HC is an event that got quite hyped by the community and is a huge success. World Cup couldn't even come near HC's success. It peaked 34k viewers, which is huge by itself, but doesn't come near HC4's 60k. So no, not necessarily every event hosted by T90 would attain HC's success.

We could also mention Hera's champions league, which peaked 20k viewers, even when it was hosted in Viper's channel, which is the closest competitor with T90 in average viewer numbers. Actually, when both T90 and Viper streams at the same time, Viper tends to get more viewers than T90. So no, the success of HC4 isn't only due to T90's fame. It's simply the event that pleases the average aoe2 community the most, with its peculiar mechanics attaining a lot of engagement.

 

[K1_]

Highlight video of the Qualifiers (by @K1_ ) I really hope there will be one of the Main event as well. Perhaps you could make vids about highlights from previous hidden cups as well to show in the breaks.

im glad you liked it :D i already made a highlight video for the main event and t90 showed it at the end of his stream on the final day of hidden cup. he'll probably release it on youtube soon too

 

[Zeev]

Two streams at the same time is good if all players are known so viewers can choose which players they wanna watch. In hidden cup it kinda loses it's purpose, not to mention I've not heard of something like this in any eSports, and it's hard to compare esports to real sports in structure of events.

CS:GO does this. For example ESL has 3 different CS:GO twitch channels for this reason. Tournaments go much faster if you can have 2 or 3 games at the same time. But I agree: wouldn't work in Hidden Cup.

 

[Toom03]

CS:GO does this. For example ESL has 3 different CS:GO twitch channels for this reason. Tournaments go much faster if you can have 2 or 3 games at the same time. But I agree: wouldn't work in Hidden Cup.

the voobly stream used to do this in the past, they have two channels voobly_offical and voobly_Stream i think. They were only used if they had two events happening at the same time. Dont think age is big enough for it atm tho. Most tournaments are hostet by casters who want to grow from hosting them ofc.

 

[CravesZ]

3- The fact that no meme hero (cobra car, god's own sling, warwolf etc.) ever makes it past quarterfinals in ANY of the 4 Hidden Cups so far is a big bummer in the event for me and I believe for most viewers. Robo could rig the system a bit to give the meme heroes to the top 4 players. Kappa

Emperor In a Barrel made it to the Semifinals of HC3.