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  • (2021) Hidden Cup 4

HC4: The ultimate guessing guide.

  • Thread starter FranceDaisyChain
  • Start date Feb 22, 2021
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FranceDaisyChain

Halberdier
Jul 26, 2020
476
1,076
98
  • Feb 22, 2021
  • #1
With HC qualifiers on the way, I'm more and more hyped for the main event, and guessing who's who is a huge part of it. I thought it would be a good idea to share some knowledge about the players to create the ultimate guessing guide. Some viewers are more knowledgeable than others and that would be awesome to spread the insights. This way, we could all have informed wrong guesses instead of uninformed ones. Having more things to check should make this more enjoyable for everyone.

I tried to include as many parameters as possible, even if I don't necessarily have an idea of the specific style of most players. I thought of these categories:


Expected level
Obviously a very important parameter, even if there are upsets every HC, and even if the level seems a lot closer than the previous years.
Expected map picks and bans
We'd expect some players to pick or ban specific maps like Islands, Hideout or the more agressive feudal ones. Will depend on the settings and the maps for the main event, but someone always going for Islands could be Dogao for instance, after his performance last year on the map. We'd expect Viper to go for it too, even if he likes to hide himself.
Expected civs
Typically Yo going for meso civs, and still valuing Aztecs after the nerfs. From what I see in qualifiers, Franks, Vikings or Chinese seem to be the most common choices on G1 Arabia, someone going Aztec Arabia would hint at Yo (even if he might keep it for Gold Rush, I expect him to pick a lot of Gold Rush). We'd expect some players to value Huns and civs with mobility and others to value archer civs. Expect Viper to throw the odd Portuguese or Khmer in the draft too, even if he does not end up playing them.
Expected strategies/playstyle/preferred units
Probably the most important but the harder to explain. Who pressures a lot in feudal, who gains just a small lead and then goes up to Castle Age. Once up, who would do something like a forward workshop + monastery into a castle drop vs who would use his lead to boom and slowly starve the opponent.
Expected level of preparation
I think everyone will take the event very seriously, but some players specialize in unusual strats. Daut and Tatoh had great strategies last year, so if you see something unusual and clever remember that you should guess that it is most likely TheMax and Villese.
Use of scout early game
Some players go forward immediately and lame ressources, others go forward immediately but annoy/try to snipe a vill, others scout their whole base and keep the scout in front of the enemy base to see their strat, some like to lure. Generally speaking, some have a more active scout. Not sure many people will lame with the settings, and not sure it's necessarily MbL if someone does it, but always an hint.
Walling
Some players are known for house walls, others for big palissade walls, others for small walls (hello MbL), others tend to stay open for longer. Some players always use their buildings in the wall and others don't like it (the blacksmith especially).
Deers and boars
Some players love pushing deer (hello Slam, if you make it, but also seemingly Max according to Jeowaypoint), Viper typically collects food long distance, others mill it or just ignore it. Some players are notorious for failing their lures (Daut is memed a lot for that, but I think Jordan is the worst at it, if he makes it into HC4). Last year, only a handful of players weakened boar with TC, this year I think a lot more players do it. Yo started the trend, but I think almost all Chinese, Vietnamese and GL players do it (Viper, Tatoh and Jordan do it, don't think Daut does it). The tAMpo guys don't really do it though I think, but feel free to correct me.
Farm placement
Viper always has perfect farms around the TC, he always starts them at the exact same spot to optimize their placement. I think Max does the same. Other players have pretty random ones, even when they're not especially pressured.
Early game towers, forwards and sneaks
I know T90 likes to say that Vivi will tower and Max will sneak a building, but I'm generally not convinced. I still think that it is more typical of some players, even if it depends on the map and the pace of the game.
Micro
Everyone can do a good split or a failed one, but we all expect Lierrey or Hera to try flashy moves and to micro with confidence. Viper would do it too, but it will usually be less flashy. DauT obviously will have the best micro.
Quick walls
Here again, Viper should do sick quickwalls, especially to save a villager, but Hera and Lierrey should try it more often. Last year, I think they were the two easiest to recognize because of the quick walls/traps/market walls. Pretty much everyone quickwalls now so that might be less useful.
Boom/Eco
The tendency to go multiple TCs, especially when they are ahead. I know DauT and Jordan often overboom and delete vills later, for instance. Other players will be more focused on their army control than their boom, to the point of forgetting important eco upgrades (Nicov's wheelbarrow timing?)
Castles
Where do you place your castles. Everyone can do a DauT castle from time to time, but some players prioritize hills, others map control. Typically, Viper tends to do a relatively safe castle when he has the choice to secure the front of his base, while other players tend to do agressive castles to put pressure on their opponent.
Gamesense/creativity
The tendency to do something unexpected/offmeta that just makes sense in the situation even if most of us wouldn't think of it. The specialty of Viper. MbL also has pretty creative reactions which often helps him comeback. Other players are more structured/meta, like Lierrey.
Scouting/vision
Some players like to throw outposts all over the map and get early town watch/town patrol. Others will create a few scouts and patrol around the map, even lategame. Jordan has a very recognizable outpost style for instance.
Relics
Some players are notorious for getting relics early, or not getting them at all. Lierrey used to never get them but I'm not sure that's still true. Does anyone know anything specific here?
Siege and monks
Some players underuse them, others pretty much always add a monastery in early Castle Age and add a few monks to a knights war.
Lategame towers
A player like Tatoh likes to control the map with keeps. Viper does it too, but mostly with Britons/Japanese. MbL adds BBT.
Lategame units
Hera spams hussars, Yo will always switch to eagles if he can, even as Mayans, MbL will spam trash and slowly come back in a seemingly lost game.
Practice partner
Useful to find duos with similar strategies/approach of a map. Tatoh-Daut, Hera-Lierrey or Viper-Jordan for instance. Will depend on who makes it anyway.
Adaptation to DE and QoL improvements
Some players prefer the old ways. Notably, Nicov does not multiqueue and MbL does not use the auto reseed, even lategame. If they recently changed their style, feel free to correct me.
Other useful information
Anything else that could be relevant. For instance Viper tries to hide his identity and to make the viewers enjoy his games, to the point he is actually easy to recognize. Last year going green as Saladin and doing some semi-troll strats like the War Elephants made it extremely obvious it was him. He might not do it this year beause we now expect it, and because he probably has more pressure to perform than ever. I guess we could also consider the tendency of players to resign. MbL will do it super late, Nicov might still do it too early.



If many people are interested and want to share their knowledge, feel free to discuss and debate. I'm not an expert on the various playstyles, so correct any mistakes I made and add your own suggestions. I'll create a player profile for every qualified player based on your insights and my own ideas before the main event starts. I most likely won't have something specific to say for each player and each category, but I'll try to have at least 5 categories for every player. For now we don't know who will make it, but we can talk about the 8 invited players.
 
Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
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nimanoe

Netherlandsnimanoe

Administrator
Staff member
Jan 15, 2014
3,519
5,650
143
28
  • Feb 22, 2021
  • #2
Attacking a boar with your tc: In the previous Hidden Cups this was a clear giveaway of Mr Yo, as he's the only pro who does this consistently.
 
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FranceDaisyChain

Halberdier
Jul 26, 2020
476
1,076
98
  • Feb 22, 2021
  • #3
That's another good one, although I've seen almost everyone do it recently. I add it to the original post, with the caveat that Viper or Tatoh do it all the time too now.
 
J

Unknownjoubine9

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2016
244
354
63
  • Feb 22, 2021
  • #4
You can also put nicov wheelbarrows timing, he never does it in feodal. Expect to see it in imp.
 
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IamJeo

FinlandIamJeo

Two handed swordman
Apr 13, 2016
499
701
118
  • Feb 22, 2021
  • #5
I’m not sure I want to reveal all my tells 11. HC3 I was so close to 100%.. This time it will be maybe even tougher since everyone is practicing harder, and with more varied practice partners (capoch, accm joining the fray as candidates) outside normal

As for deer hunting, expect to see up to 4-6 animals dead simultaneously under TheMax’s TC, no one loves deer more than him (myself excluded), earlier the better. That was the easy tell last time around.
 
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S

SlovakiaShakal

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2020
245
493
68
  • Feb 22, 2021
  • #6
joubine9 said:
You can also put nicov wheelbarrows timing, he never does it in feodal. Expect to see it in imp.
Click to expand...
Just before horse collar
 
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F

United StatesFreezing_Point

Halberdier
Jul 13, 2019
406
835
98
  • Feb 22, 2021
  • #7
Jeowaypoint said:
I’m not sure I want to reveal all my tells 11. HC3 I was so close to 100%.. This time it will be maybe even tougher since everyone is practicing harder, and with more varied practice partners (capoch, accm joining the fray as candidates) outside normal

As for deer hunting, expect to see up to 4-6 animals dead simultaneously under TheMax’s TC, no one loves deer more than him (myself excluded), earlier the better. That was the easy tell last time around.
Click to expand...

I remember one of your tools last time was downloading POV recs and seeing what language they were in. I also remember you transposed BacT and MbL, so does that mean BacT uses an English version of the game, then?
 
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IamJeo

FinlandIamJeo

Two handed swordman
Apr 13, 2016
499
701
118
  • Feb 22, 2021
  • #8
Freezing_Point said:
I remember one of your tools last time was downloading POV recs and seeing what language they were in. I also remember you transposed BacT and MbL, so does that mean BacT uses an English version of the game, then?
Click to expand...
Oh yeah that was an unfortunate side-effect to watching the recs, I had forgotten. If you tune in on BacT twitch, you can see he indeed has an English game language.
 
SuperskinnyBLS

SwedenSuperskinnyBLS

Banned User
Dec 30, 2016
2,312
6,304
128
Sweden
  • Feb 22, 2021
  • #9
Larry usually sends 3 vills to deer for long distance gathering after cicking up to feudal
 
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R

Lithuaniarmcoo

Two handed swordman
Apr 13, 2012
2,428
1,537
118
Lithuania
  • Feb 23, 2021
  • #10
Jeowaypoint said:
I’m not sure I want to reveal all my tells 11. HC3 I was so close to 100%.. This time it will be maybe even tougher since everyone is practicing harder, and with more varied practice partners (capoch, accm joining the fray as candidates) outside normal
Click to expand...
Out of curiousity who screwed you over for the 100%?
 
IamJeo

FinlandIamJeo

Two handed swordman
Apr 13, 2016
499
701
118
  • Feb 23, 2021
  • #11
rmcoo said:
Out of curiousity who screwed you over for the 100%?
Click to expand...
Mixed BacT and Villese, by a coin toss (funnily enough, failed to recognize a fellow finn 11). Villese didn’t stream back then and so I had no reference of build habits like with TheMax, and they were equally unknown shape-wise, holding similar victory records vs other contenders.

Needless to say, the King of the Sauna has much improved since and will not result in a mixup this time.
 
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RogganWololo

IndiaRogganWololo

Longswordman
Jun 3, 2013
358
1,172
108
26
  • Feb 23, 2021
  • #12
nimanoe said:
Attacking a boar with your tc: In the previous Hidden Cups this was a clear giveaway of Mr Yo, as he's the only pro who does this consistently.
Click to expand...
Some players will almost always kill their boar with the TC (Yo, Viper, Tatoh, Villese from what I have observed) and some will almost never kill their boar with TC (Daut, MbL, Nicov) so it's somewhat possible to narrow down.

Also farm placement could potentially be a thing. Some players are obsessed with making at least their first farms clean around their tc to the point that they will delete and replace a farm even if it's slightly off. And some, like our lord, don't care about how it looks and don't care about the first row farms either.

It makes it somewhat easier to identify players by watching recs since you can put view lock and see what actions they do and in what order.
 
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X

China_XD_xiaoma

Member
Oct 8, 2013
40
74
23
  • Feb 23, 2021
  • #13
Additional:
If you find one guy always close to 1000 wood in a drastic battle of the middle game.
That's definitely Mr. Yo.
 
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Memeluke

ItalyMemeluke

Champion
Nov 9, 2016
1,072
3,014
128
  • Feb 23, 2021
  • #14
Did anybody win anything with the HC3 guessing contest? I remember that there was some prize for HC2 but I did very well in HC3 and never got to see how I placed.
 
D

FranceDaisyChain

Halberdier
Jul 26, 2020
476
1,076
98
  • Feb 23, 2021
  • #15
It appears that every time I edit my first post it puts the whole thread on hold to review my post, so I'll stop editing it for now. But yes, tons of good infos.
I did not think of recording the recs, that obviously makes a lot more sense if you want to have 100% guess.
 
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Degaussed

United KingdomDegaussed

Longswordman
Apr 15, 2019
418
1,282
108
  • Feb 23, 2021
  • #16
Memeluke said:
Did anybody win anything with the HC3 guessing contest? I remember that there was some prize for HC2 but I did very well in HC3 and never got to see how I placed.
Click to expand...
IIRC, I think Memb got a lot of them correct
 
S

Guest
  • Feb 23, 2021
  • #17
Viper's farm placement :rolleyes:
 
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D

FranceDaisyChain

Halberdier
Jul 26, 2020
476
1,076
98
  • Mar 9, 2021
  • #18
Now that the qualifiers are over, I'll add a message about every player and edit it every time I notice something new.
 
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Franceamazing_knight

Halberdier
Nov 20, 2017
730
2,848
98
  • Mar 9, 2021
  • #19
Nice post. But couldn't read it properly. Could you add spaces between the points? Would improvereadability.

Regarding expected civs - Yo is perhaps the only player who picks incas in major tourneys.

Weirdness indicator: If a certain player is playing very strong but very weird with some spears, some xbows, some kts, some monks and mangonels and still trying to add eco behind, it's likely to be MbL.
 
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United StatesFreezing_Point

Halberdier
Jul 13, 2019
406
835
98
  • Mar 9, 2021
  • #20
Didn't Vinchester use Incas in game 1 against Slam in the deciders? Add him to the list of suspects at least.

As for an MbL indicator, another thing he's known for when going cavalry is to add extra scouts after clicking up to Castle Age.
 
T90Official

United StatesT90Official

Champion
Jun 24, 2015
574
3,596
128
United States
www.facebook.com
  • Mar 9, 2021
  • #21
Memeluke said:
Did anybody win anything with the HC3 guessing contest? I remember that there was some prize for HC2 but I did very well in HC3 and never got to see how I placed.
Click to expand...

We'll do a better job at presenting the data this time. We will also have a prize this time however that largely depends on how many people get all 16. If it's 300 people there's not much of value to promise, so we're playing it all by ear haha.

There were only 5 people (if i recall) who got all names correct, and notably Villese was the only pro who got all 16. With thousands of entries it was pretty cool to see only 5 get them all, though many people got 10 or so.
 
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United Statesrlstine

Member
Feb 5, 2021
10
22
8
  • Mar 9, 2021
  • #22
I've noticed a few particular Dark Age quirks some players have.

There are two players out of the 16 who will always task their 6th vil to a new sheep instead of to the first sheep. These are Villese and TheViper.

Daut does a weird thing when luring boar where he will set the gather point to a spot next to the boar and not on the boar itself, so his vil that spawns will be a "Villager" and not a "Hunter" with a bow.

These players (usually) weaken boar with TC:
-Viper
-Yo
-Villese
-BacT
-Jordan
-ACCM
-Vinchester

Side note: I'm pretty sure Yo went out of his way to not weaken his boars with TC last Hidden Cup. I wouldn't put it past a player like Viper to do that too just to mess with people.

The last one is extremely unreliable but I thought I'd bring it up anyway:

There are a couple players who always start the game by selecting all 3 villagers to build a house, then pulling one of these vils to build the second house (most players select the 2 together and then the one alone). So for these players their starting vils will all walk in the same direction at the beginning of the game for a split second. Two players who always do this are Jordan and Liereyy. But almost all of the rest of the players will do this at least occasionally so it probably doesn't mean much.
 
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ArgentinaAntuan

Member
Feb 2, 2021
9
20
8
  • Mar 9, 2021
  • #23
rlstine said:
I've noticed a few particular Dark Age quirks some players have.

There are two players out of the 16 who will always task their 6th vil to a new sheep instead of to the first sheep. These are Villese and TheViper.

Daut does a weird thing when luring boar where he will set the gather point to a spot next to the boar and not on the boar itself, so his vil that spawns will be a "Villager" and not a "Hunter" with a bow.

These players (usually) weaken boar with TC:
-Viper
-Yo
-Villese
-BacT
-Jordan
-ACCM
-Vinchester

Side note: I'm pretty sure Yo went out of his way to not weaken his boars with TC last Hidden Cup. I wouldn't put it past a player like Viper to do that too just to mess with people.

The last one is extremely unreliable but I thought I'd bring it up anyway:

There are a couple players who always start the game by selecting all 3 villagers to build a house, then pulling one of these vils to build the second house (most players select the 2 together and then the one alone). So for these players their starting vils will all walk in the same direction at the beginning of the game for a split second. Two players who always do this are Jordan and Liereyy. But almost all of the rest of the players will do this at least occasionally so it probably doesn't mean much.
Click to expand...
Nicov and TaToh also use the TC to weaken the boar.
 
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United Statesrlstine

Member
Feb 5, 2021
10
22
8
  • Mar 9, 2021
  • #24
Antuan said:
Nicov and TaToh also use the TC to weaken the boar.
Click to expand...
Yeah I've seen Tatoh do both and I'll take your word on Nicov. That's the thing about these Dark Age quirks is they don't do them 100% of the time.
 
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H

Canadahuntskiki

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2020
146
408
68
  • Mar 9, 2021
  • #25
RogganWololo said:
Some players will almost always kill their boar with the TC (Yo, Viper, Tatoh, Villese from what I have observed) and some will almost never kill their boar with TC (Daut, MbL, Nicov) so it's somewhat possible to narrow down.

Also farm placement could potentially be a thing. Some players are obsessed with making at least their first farms clean around their tc to the point that they will delete and replace a farm even if it's slightly off. And some, like our lord, don't care about how it looks and don't care about the first row farms either.

It makes it somewhat easier to identify players by watching recs since you can put view lock and see what actions they do and in what order.
Click to expand...

Daut seemed to change his tune when he casted last weekend. He said he finally realized how important farm placement is (or words to that effect).
 
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