Discussion - NAC2 Play-Offs SF Liereyy vs TheViper

What do you think the score will be?


  • Total voters
    158
  • Poll closed .

Netherlandsnimanoe

Knight
Bronze Supporter
Jan 15, 2014
2,213
1,643
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#1
Will be played on Saturday 16 February at 16:00 GMT on Twitch.tv/Nili_AoE
Who do you think will win this match-up?

Best of 5 on the following maps:
Game 1: Arabia
Game 2: Map pick Liereyy
Game 3: Map pick TheViper
Map ban Liereyy
Map ban TheViper
Game 4: Map pick Liereyy
Game 5: Map pick TheViper
Game 6: Map pick TheViper
Game 7: Map pick Liereyy
Game 8: Map pick Liereyy
Game 9: Map pick TheViper

Players will be able to globally pick 10 civs and then ban 1 civ of the picked civs from the opponent
Draft

Liereyy 0-0 TheViper

Brackets
 
Last edited:

MoroccolinetyReborn

Well Known Pikeman
Oct 27, 2014
260
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#2
I'm no viper fanboy but I think that even when lierey took 2 or 3 games from the viper it was just because viper get careless sometimes . if the score of the game affected the prize u would be seeing true viper going for 5-0 win
 
Apr 2, 2012
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#3
Hmmm… not too sure about that. With regard to their group stage games, I'd say Lierrey is giving Viper a real run for his money… In one or two of their games I, same as the casters, had a hard time Imaging that viper could actually ever come back into the game (I think once he as 30 vills behind… against Lierrey… and then he still won).

In the after-game interviews Viper himself stated, that he "really had to play his heart out".

The first 10min of game one was skillwise Maybe I've ever seen in aoc.

Kinda shame, that Lierrey vs Viper is the Semi-Final, this kinda feels awkward.
 
Likes: jive36
Nov 22, 2013
30
44
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#4
It's not a shame, it's well deserved consequence of mbl playing great. If People dont try to put Viper or Larry playing worse than expected down to trolling or "off day" or a dying pet bunny or whatever then it's "a shame"?
I really hate this fanboy behaviour. Give credit where it's due...

This being said, I think it will come out at 5-3 or 5-4 in favour of Viper.
 
Last edited:
Apr 2, 2012
19
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#5
I wouldn't call it "fanboy behaviour" (although I might be guilty as charged…).

This said, if intentionally or not, I'd argue that Viper played substantially better vs Lierrey (and before that vs Nicov) than vs MBL...

...and although I'm not even sure Viper is gonna win vs Lierrey, I'm Pretty sure he'd clearly win vs MBL...
 

Finlandbuhanisson

Longswordman
May 29, 2015
374
947
108
#6
Whether or not Liereyy or mbl is slightly better than the other, they both have like 10% chance of winning Viper in a Bo9 and closer to 3% in a Bo13. Whichever clear underdog there is in the grand final doesnt really seem important to me. Technically, mbl deserved his chance by playing well, although to be fair the tiebreakers in this bucholtz thingy seem pretty arbitrary to me.
 
Likes: facepalm

United Statesjive36

Known Member
May 19, 2018
44
117
48
#8
Viper has the upper hand because he is extremely hard to finish off. He does a good job of conserving resources when he is getting pushed and waiting for numbers before countering. Liereyy on the other hand has thrown away a lot of units to magonels in the last two Viper matchups. If he avoids those types of mistakes he can beat Viper.

I still think that all the aM guys need to use more siege to finish off games. Specifically I think they ignore rams too often or tech into them too late. But I'm just a pleb who sucks at AOC so what do I know.
 

Nepalarchxeon

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2014
194
363
68
#9
In terms of economy macro: MBL is on par with Viper (if not better).
In terms of Micro: Viper is obviously still better (though the gap isn't huge).
In terms of decision making: Viper is better (the gap isn't that much either).

I feel like MBL doesn't ignore boring/monotonous stuff (like double walling.. etc.) or tiring the opponent out by just dragging the game out and waiting for an advantage . In tournaments, Viper does those things as well. But MBL has more hunger.

The immense pressure of the final for MBL is the huge advantage Viper has. He kind of admitted that himself during that interview with Nili. If he can somehow overcome that, I'd feel the final would be really close.
 

Unknown_Andrew

Longswordman
Jan 2, 2013
2,203
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#11
Whether or not Liereyy or mbl is slightly better than the other, they both have like 10% chance of winning Viper in a Bo9 and closer to 3% in a Bo13. Whichever clear underdog there is in the grand final doesnt really seem important to me. Technically, mbl deserved his chance by playing well, although to be fair the tiebreakers in this bucholtz thingy seem pretty arbitrary to me.
Slightly? Lierey is significantly better than Mbl. We're not talking in terms of slightly's here.
 
Likes: _balcanman

MoroccolinetyReborn

Well Known Pikeman
Oct 27, 2014
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#12
The last two major tournament finals they played in ended 5-4 and 5-3 so that's a silly take.
just from a business standpoint, it benefits viper immensely to give the illusion of weakness vs other players if not lierey or mbl its daut , if not daut its someone else. ...coz otherwise no one would be sponsoring a bo 21 viper vs ...... and viewers eventually will get tired of watching one-sided finals , theorically it benifits the viper to lose as many non-disqualifying games as he can. i think lierey knows that and he gave up on being number one a long time ago and he just plays the mascarade when asked "are u going to beat the viper'" yes im very motivated .... (but evidence shows the contrary . since he doesn't practice more than theviper does). maybe i overthink this , but it sure looks like a probable scenario of how things are behind the scene.
 
Likes: AlphaAndOmega

Unknown_Andrew

Longswordman
Jan 2, 2013
2,203
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#14
just from a business standpoint, it benefits viper immensely to give the illusion of weakness vs other players if not lierey or mbl its daut , if not daut its someone else. ...coz otherwise no one would be sponsoring a bo 21 viper vs ...... and viewers eventually will get tired of watching one-sided finals , theorically it benifits the viper to lose as many non-disqualifying games as he can. i think lierey knows that and he gave up on being number one a long time ago and he just plays the mascarade when asked "are u going to beat the viper'" yes im very motivated .... (but evidence shows the contrary . since he doesn't practice more than theviper does). maybe i overthink this , but it sure looks like a probable scenario of how things are behind the scene.
So Viper, who hasn’t made a secret of the fact that he’s burned out and doesn’t feel like playing AoE in recent months, is just willingly deciding to play 4-5 more games (2-3 hours worth) per set in order to create the illusion that he’s beatable... and all this is for business reasons? Did I get that right?

Quite the imagination.
 

MexicoSouFire

Well Known Pikeman
Mar 11, 2011
2,606
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Mexico
#15
Viper is beatable, but sometimes he doesn't seems to be playing serious, mbl in last tournaments has been so close to him even more than lierey, it seems that mbl is the only player that overall performs good vs viper, while lierey destroys anyone else he usually gets schooled by viper and end up by losing their games because of decision making.

The fall of viper is coming probably within this and the next year, depends on how much he stops playing but after the ecl event and the games on nac2 the chances are 5-1, 5-2 or 5-3 for viper vs larry.
 
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United Statesjive36

Known Member
May 19, 2018
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#16
Viper does realize it is a business and his role in it is to provide games that are as entertaining as possible. But I don't think he lets this get in the way of winning and playing smart against MBL, Liereyy, Mr. Yo and Vivi in big tournament games. You rarely see him making sub optimal unit compositions or taking big all in risks unless he is already almost dead against any of the other top 5 players.

I think you see the showmanship more in say KOTD2 vs Black. Viper probably could have made different decisions and won those 3 games in 30 minutes each but instead he decides to go all in castle age mangudai and wins. Which isn't a troll strat but also isn't the most efficient path to victory. On Day 1 of NAC2 you could see him be a little annoyed with Daut after Daut rage quit 10 minutes into a game, said something like "we gotta put on a show" after the series.

So I think both things can be true. Viper understands there is showmanship involved and extends games against some competitors to put on a better show and he plays full tryhard against the other top 5 players because they are challenging for him to beat.

Finally there are people who will sponsor a one sided BO 21 showmatch with the Viper involved because of his showmanship. MattSalsa just did it a few months ago with the match of Viper vs Daut. I don't think anyone expected it to be a particularly close match but because of Viper and Daut's personalities it was still entertaining.
 

NetherlandsBurandal

Active Member
Aug 11, 2015
69
206
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#17
Kinda shame, that Lierrey vs Viper is the Semi-Final, this kinda feels awkward.
Just because they were once no 1st and 2nd of the world doesnt mean they always will be, this comment is totally BS.
Thats like organising a tournament for tennis and let Nadal and Federer play the finals even if Djockovic is better then Nadal, just because you want to see that match. Sometimes the no 1 and 2 will change. If people always going to cry that they want to see a viper - lierrey final, they only asume they are 1 and 2, instead of having them proving it.
Tournaments are for having people compete to be the no 1, not for the crowd playing some showmatches..
In the last tournaments lierrey never won from Viper.. but Mbl did it 3 times (2 times at NAC and once in LotH.
 
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Irelanddooog

Well-Known Member
Mar 3, 2018
176
442
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#20
It always feels like Viper goes full tryhard vs Liereyy. The diversity of maps should also give the shnek an edge as opposed to say KOTD arabia format.

That said, even though Viper keeps winning these big series against Larry, there's usually several games he takes down which Larry is within a whisker of winning. Also viper usually opens with a 2 or 3 nil lead, so if Larry can keep it tight in the first 4 or 5 games he puts himself in a great position.

Think it's fair to say Viper didn't look his usual best vs Nicov, MBL or Larry so far this week he has looked quite beatable, so I would probably give Larry like a 35% chance maybe? But then again we're now at the business end of the tournament and there's huge money on the line so perhaps the Viper machine will show up and just sweep it like 5-1 / 5-2
 
Likes: Zuppi
Dec 16, 2013
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#21
People, in NAC1 and KOTD1 and KOTD2, larry could win both if he didnt make some sily mistakes that are just "the viper factor" (in last KOTD2 not going with archers and destroyed viper in game 1 against burmese, and a lot of examples like this). If lierey doesnt really respect viper, he can beat THE BEST viper, because lierey has better micro and he is amazing in terms of putting pressure of feudal (and viper suffer agains that).

and mbl, if he turtles enought, I think he can also beat viper. viper seems a bit off against MBL on his gameplay and that is true, but is also true that mbl has that style that if you dont scout him, you can die in 5 mins.

anyway I belive viper can adapt in a BO13 against mbl, and even overcome some 4-1 down or so. And I think in a BO13 lierey has more chances to beat him, and in a BO9 MBL has more chances than lierey xD, just because lierey allways drops 2 games of the first 4 or something like that.

what a noob, kappa.
 
Apr 2, 2012
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#22
I think people love federer vs nadal matches (more than other matchups) because the two of them tend to bring out the best of each other which results in great games - somewhat similar like Viper vs lierrey...

…this said, that Theory did not really work out today...
 

Unknown_Andrew

Longswordman
Jan 2, 2013
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#23
The competitive scene is really tough to watch right now. I think a lot of the top players need to do some soul searching if they really intend to continue to compete at these big events. It’s tough to watch as a viewer from a competitive standpoint.
 

NorwayMoonspring

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Nov 7, 2016
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#24
Viper - Liereyy might have been one sided. Mbl vs Viper was an upset and tatoh vs mbl aswell. We saw great games. If nac2 ended today Id give it a 8.8/10.
 

Unknown_Andrew

Longswordman
Jan 2, 2013
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#25
Viper - Liereyy might have been one sided. Mbl vs Viper was an upset and tatoh vs mbl aswell. We saw great games. If nac2 ended today Id give it a 8.8/10.
Really? This is the least competitive tournament I can remember. Both quarterfinals 5-0. Semifinals 5-0. Two best players played a noncompetitive series.

Very disappointing to me from a competitive perspective.
 

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