Project succesful (Interview with PROject_Belgium).

[Athasos]

Kumpi on parempi, ydinvoima-Ranska vai hiili-Saksa? - Saksalle rökäletappio sähkön co2-päästöissä

Saksan sähköntuotanto oli 655 terawattituntia ja Ranskan 529 terawattituntia vuonna 2017.

www.tekniikkatalous.fi

I'm sorry about the source's language. I'm not reading english newsites so forgive me pls.

Energy production in France: 72% Nuclear energy, 10% hydroelectric, 10% coal and natural gas, 5% wind power and 2% solar energy

In Germany: 38% Coal and Brown Coal, 33% renewables, 12% nuclear, 13% natural gas and rest from other fuels.

Now, this is the point I'm trying to make: 1 kwh produced, on the avarage, 72 grams of CO2 in France when in Germany some number was 764! 10 times more

Really the problem with ideology policy in nuclear power is that the energy need to be made in otherways. And unfortunately renewables are not efficient enough and reliable enough ( other energy sources are needed to flatten the unavoidable drops in wind and solar energy).

Calling Fear of nuclear devastation ideology is pretty stupid, we all know the downsides of nuclear power.

Issues:
No solution for long term storage.
Multiple examples of serious failings that lead or almost lead to gigantic disasters and uninhabitable land.
Exploding costs especially if you include storage (and not even the long term storage)
Ecologically questionable, especially with rising temperatures potentially no more cooling water from rivers like the rhine, causing massive numbers of dead fish.

So instead of focussing on yet another destructive power source it is much smarter to go totally renewable while investing into storage research.
Btw Germany bought the long term storage responsabilities from the energy companies, as they would get bancrupted by those costs n the long run (same for the coal mines in the Rhineland, which will cost trillions over many years to come)

 

[Athasos]

Yes, this is better solution than what German did - cut Nuclear energy while keeping Coal burning (the real climate rapist) pretty much at the old, already high, level.

About meltdowns. In terms of safety, nuclear energy is very strong. Obviously things like Tshernobyl always haunts in peoples minds same way as flight accidents make people feel like air travel is more dangerous than going by car although the truth is totally opposite.

This is simply wrong coal went down from 56% in 1990 to 35,5% in 2018 meanwhile nuclear went also down more than 15%

 

[kalkkaro]

This is simply wrong coal went down 56% in 1990 to 35,5% in 2018 meanwhile nuclear went also down more than 15%

The drop in Coal usage happened before 2009. After that the usage even went up after going downwards again but with cost of Gas usage going up (notice how simultaneously these two changes are happening, less coal -> more gas flowing from Putinland. Cutting nuclear usage by almost 50% in ~6 year period is just plainly stupid.

Calling Fear of nuclear devastation ideology is pretty stupid, we all know the downsides of nuclear power.

Issues:
No solution for long term storage.
Multiple examples of serious failings that lead or almost lead to gigantic disasters and uninhabitable land.
Exploding costs especially if you include storage (and not even the long term storage)
Ecologically questionable, especially with rising temperatures potentially no more cooling water from rivers like the rhine, causing massive numbers of dead fish.

So instead of focussing on yet another destructive power source it is much smarter to go totally renewable while investing into storage research.
Btw Germany bought the long term storage responsabilities from the energy companies, as they would get bancrupted by those costs n the long run (same for the coal mines in the Rhineland, which will cost trillions over many years to come)

As I said, I nuclear power is not trouble-free but it's still statistically the one with least downsides. Some of downsides are also dramatized like the safety aspect. What you said about climate change potentially rising the propability of disasters is propably true but you are ignoring how drastically Nuclear Plant safety mechanisms has been improving over the decades and how they will presumably improve even more in future.

What you say about exploding cost is funny when Germany has now the highest eletric bills in the world. Not to mention how much goverment need to support renewable production with taxpayers money.

Reason why I am comparing climate and nuclear power deniers is how both are trying to figth against obvious facts. No renewable definitely is not cheaper than nuclear energy, no it's not efficient enough to reasonably replace other sources with it, no nuclear plants can't explode like atomic bombs.

Also both are wrecking our changes to quiet the climate change. One by ignoring it all together and other by preventing use of the only CO2 free energy source that can efficiently replace the troublesome sources. Hurray.

 

[Athasos]

View attachment 170808

You are talking raw power generated in TWh while I talk about the percentage of the total energymix ... Apples and Oranges, no need to go deeper here

 

[Athasos]

As I said, I nuclear power is not trouble-free but it's still statistically the one with least downsides. Some of downsides are also dramatized like the safety aspect. What you said about climate change potentially rising the propability of disasters is propably true but you are ignoring how drastically Nuclear Plant safety mechanisms has been improving over the decades and how they will presumably improve even more in future.

What you say about exploding cost is funny when Germany has now the highest eletric bills in the world. Not to mention how much goverment need to support renewable production with taxpayers money.

Reason why I am comparing climate and nuclear power deniers is how both are trying to figth against obvious facts. No renewable definitely is not cheaper than nuclear energy, no it's not efficient enough to reasonably replace other sources with it, no nuclear plants can't explode like atomic bombs.

Also both are wrecking our changes to quiet the climate change. One by ignoring it all together and other by preventing use of the only CO2 free energy source that can efficiently replace the troublesome sources. Hurray.

Actually Denmarks bill is a little higher at 30€ while Germany has around 29€...
Apparently you don't know about the inner politics of Germany, the main reason why Germany has such a high bill for citicens is due to massive cuts for the industry.
The average citicens is paying an additional fee to fund renewable energy while most industries are excluded from those additional costs.
Secondly our Coalplants are very old and not profitable, even tough we have such a high energy price, so no it's not only from the renewable energies ...

You talk about obvious facts, just give me any solution for nuclear waste, that does not need endless amount of money to store them forever.

Do you have any idea how expensive new nuclear powerplant are nowadys?
The old ones from the 70th have to be closed due to safety reasons anyway (just look at how many issues an old plant like Doel has), only the new ones would be 99,9% safe.
It's much cheaper to create renewable energy, a windmill in Germany has it's destruction costs funded before it's built, a nuclear powerplant takes decades and billions to deconstruct and to safely store the remaining parts.

Last point once again, several nuclear powerplants had to be taken down in the last summers in Germany due to the lack of cooling water provided by nearby rivers.

Last fact for you
Germany has a conservative Cancellor for 14(?) years now.
The old ideas on how to push for more renewable energy were cut down and most funding has expired long before the goals were met.
The fear of the AFD getting to much power in Coal dependent states as Saxony leads to less ambitious plans to get out of coal.
Local "uninformed" citicens are fighting the construction of Windmills or big power lines.
All this leads to a way to slow transitioning away from Co2 towards renewable.
To sum it up, criticising Germanys energy system without knowing how much the transitioning has been hindered by conservatives and liberals is disingenious and mislading.

 

[Rylo]

LOL

Anyone who seriously thinks their 'belief' - or lack thereof - in anthropogenic climate change is valid needs to get their head out of their arse. Otherwise, move in with ricojay because you will have a lot in common denying the obvious.

Also, on a serious note. You are seriously scientific illiterate. The prevailing theory is what it is for a reason. You actually think that the smartest researchers in their field overlook and not account for 1200 (HD) logic that a 20 something non scientist pleb is saying? SERIOUSLY??? Besides, if you remove belief from scientific concepts (you know, how science is done), and you don't agree based on evidence, then you have to provide a competing theory that has falsifiable predictions and explains the natural phenomena observed better than the current theory - enter nobel prize winner.

 

[kalkkaro]

Actually Denmarks bill is a little higher at 30€ while Germany has around 29€...
Apparently you don't know about the inner politics of Germany, the main reason why Germany has such a high bill for citicens is due to massive cuts for the industry.
The average citicens is paying an additional fee to fund renewable energy while most industries are excluded from those additional costs.
Secondly our Coalplants are very old and not profitable, even tough we have such a high energy price, so no it's not only from the renewable energies ...

You talk about obvious facts, just give me any solution for nuclear waste, that does not need endless amount of money to store them forever.

Do you have any idea how expensive new nuclear powerplant are nowadys?
The old ones from the 70th have to be closed due to safety reasons anyway (just look at how many issues an old plant like Doel has), only the new ones would be 99,9% safe.
It's much cheaper to create renewable energy, a windmill in Germany has it's destruction costs funded before it's built, a nuclear powerplant takes decades and billions to deconstruct and to safely store the remaining parts.

Last point once again, several nuclear powerplants had to be taken down in the last summers in Germany due to the lack of cooling water provided by nearby rivers.

Last fact for you
Germany has a conservative Cancellor for 14(?) years now.
The old ideas on how to push for more renewable energy were cut down and most funding has expired long before the goals were met.
The fear of the AFD getting to much power in Coal dependent states as Saxony leads to less ambitious plans to get out of coal.
Local "uninformed" citicens are fighting the construction of Windmills or big power lines.
All this leads to a way to slow transitioning away from Co2 towards renewable.
To sum it up, criticising Germanys energy system without knowing how much the transitioning has been hindered by conservatives and liberals is disingenious and mislading.

And what you think about this

Energy production in France: 72% Nuclear energy, 10% hydroelectric, 10% coal and natural gas, 5% wind power and 2% solar energy

In Germany: 38% Coal and Brown Coal, 33% renewables, 12% nuclear, 13% natural gas and rest from other fuels.

Now, this is the point I'm trying to make: 1 kwh produced, on the avarage, 72 grams of CO2 in France when in Germany same number was 764! 10 times more!

We can talk endlesly about which is the real reason for high electric bills, how nuclear power cost more than renewables although the common belief is opposite but in the end what Germany is doing right now is not working for the climate. I would rather follow France's example.

 

[Athasos]

We can talk endlesly about which is the real reason for high electric bills, how nuclear power cost more than renewables although the common belief is opposite but in the end what Germany is doing right now is not working for the climate. I would rather follow France's example.

I wouldn't follow either LUL
But I guess you will never tackle any of my points regarding the high costs and enourmous risks involved with nuclear energy.

Just to make that clear, neither what Germany nor what France is doing is good for the planet, one is destroying the climate, the other is potentually destroying entire areas and creates massive burdes for generations to come and species to follow us for 100.000+ years.

 

[Rayne]

Its no surprise experts/good players don't engage more on forums with the amount of bullying that happened since I last visited here.

This is the exact same stuff that happened to Chris in 2008 (was it?) on then aocgroup and why he never really posted afterwards. For those unaware, Chris posted some of his own games on Sarin (a 2450 nick with 48/5 w/l ratio). He said he didn't see them posted on the site, so he uploaded himself. Then came along a band of e-thugs calling him an egoist.

I remember when Viper used to post some pearls of wisdom so kindly here even after he broke 2700. Wonder what changed.

A real shame honestly.

 

[kalkkaro]

I wouldn't follow either LUL
But I guess you will never tackle any of my points regarding the high costs and enourmous risks involved with nuclear energy.

Just to make that clear, neither what Germany nor what France is doing is good for the planet, one is destroying the climate, the other is potentually destroying entire areas and creates massive burdes for generations to come and species to follow us for 100.000+ years.

I don't bother because you didn't bring any totally wrong information. It would end up being endless discussion. Sure they are huge exaggerations, very one sided points and also partly relying in your own estimations because stats from past can't really testify them (risks and nuclear waste not concrete problem yet).

Climate is the acute problem. Thus the "France route" while researching better solutions. Trying to force renewables is going to backlash.

 

[Tedious_Tarkan]

This is the exact same stuff

using memes associated with racism for humor publicly, and then denying doing it, is not "exactly the same" as posting some recs. 11

 

[Rayne]

using memes associated with racism for humor publicly, and then denying doing it, is not "exactly the same" as posting some recs. 11

I never read most of the swastika incident. My post is in response to what happened last night here.

I am referring to how Huehue asked Belgium a qustion, Belgium gives an answer. Thread is inactive for 2 weeks nearly, then some random guy comes around with the sole intent of bashing Belgium and other douches join in on the fun. Chris posted games, one guy comes along calling him an ego poster and the thread is a few pages of those replies. So yes, the intent is the same.

Anyway, judging by your post and the context, namely typing "11", I'd lump you with the rest.

 

[Tedious_Tarkan]

People are not criticizing him for no reason. Your remembrance of Chris being mocked is so moving tho, i am saddened also 1111

 

[Influenza]

People are not criticizing him for no reason. Your remembrance of Chris being mocked is so moving tho, i am saddened also 1111

Don't challenge the unfounded beliefs of expert players publicly or else... They won't share their beliefs anymore?? I never saw the original comment of deathcounter to see how far he went in ridiculing PB, but judging from how unconsidered PB's follow up responses were, I highly doubt deathcounter went far enough.

 

[Rayne]

People are not criticizing him for no reason. Your remembrance of Chris being mocked is so moving tho, i am saddened also 1111

Is that to say the sake of planetary education is a justifiable reason for being a bully (the reason Deathcounter gave)? On an old gaming forum where Belgium just answered an interviewer's question? Tell me what I am missing because I don't see it.

Don't know how long you've been around, but aocgroup/aoezone/aoe in general has had a 10 year plus history (from when I came around) of alienating experts. Happens to others, but experts are just in a bit of a spotlight.

 

[_5_]

Is that to say the sake of planetary education is a justifiable reason for being a bully (the reason Deathcounter gave)? On an old gaming forum where Belgium just answered an interviewer's question? Tell me what I am missing because I don't see it.

Don't know how long you've been around, but aocgroup/aoezone/aoe in general has had a 10 year plus history (from when I came around) of alienating experts. Happens to others, but experts are just in a bit of a spotlight.

First of all I respect you for what you do with your game analysis and helping others in this forum. But if you think a disaggreement is bullying then i have no words....

From what I see PBG answered a question, his arguments are counter to reality, people are pointing it out (relatively politely and discussing with facts), there is sprinkling of some internet machos(like me) here and there. And I don't see a problem with people trying to put the facts in front of him for such an important topic. The problem is PBG's replies have no thought put in them, if he is entitled to give us his replies, that's another topic. He put himself in public image by agreeing to interview, he thinks he is a public figure and as goes with that people will challenge your idiotic(yes, I said it) beliefs. Its not bullying. I don't know where you get the idea that people are criticizing him since he is an expert.

This being an important issue people should discuss it anywhere, be it gaming forums, bodybuilding forums, pornhub, I mean talk to the people about this, talk to friends during a party, talk with your parents about it, talk to internet celbrities, talk to the cab driver when you take a cab, talk to the cute girl and you have no conversation starter, talk to the guy taking piss in the urinal right next to you, talk with your dog about it, whisper it your SO while having sex. Ok maybe I get a little carried away, but you get the gist of it.

 

[JoshuaR]

There is a big difference between bullying and discussion. This discussion just looks more like bullying because it's one person vs the rest of the world with all the facts on the side of the world.

 

[Rayne]

First of all I respect you for what you do with your game analysis and helping others in this forum. But if you think a disaggreement is bullying then i have no words....

From what I see PBG answered a question, his arguments are counter to reality, people are pointing it out (relatively politely and discussing with facts), there is sprinkling of some internet machos(like me) here and there. And I don't see a problem with people trying to put the facts in front of him for such an important topic. The problem is PBG's replies have no thought put in them, if he is entitled to give us his replies, that's another topic. He put himself in public image by agreeing to interview, he thinks he is a public figure and as goes with that people will challenge your idiotic(yes, I said it) beliefs. Its not bullying. I don't know where you get the idea that people are criticizing him since he is an expert.

This being an important issue people should discuss it anywhere, be it gaming forums, bodybuilding forums, pornhub, I mean talk to the people about this, talk to friends during a party, talk with your parents about it, talk to internet celbrities, talk to the cab driver when you take a cab, talk to the cute girl and you have no conversation starter, talk to the guy taking piss in the urinal right next to you, talk with your dog about it, whisper it your SO while having sex. Ok maybe I get a little carried away, but you get the gist of it.

Thanks for the respectful post honestly.

It seemed a bit more than a disagreement with some though, yes? I didn't quote anyone for a while as I was not looking for a direct fight with anyone. I usually don't get bothered by things, but this got to me more than a bit. I'll say again that I am not looking for a fight when quoting people now.

Uhm... wow, manmade climate change denier really exist - never thought they would
Oh and here is also a graph from nasa of the Co2 concentration of the past 400 000 years:

Looks totaly natural to me... totally... not

Sure the entirety of Deathcounter's post is fine, up until here. This is where the whole vibe changed. Is it just me, or is this not some serious sass? Its pretty much leading up to trolling or bullying, however you want to call it. He is trying to do a '1-UP' on Belgium. I will say this thread was inactive for 2 weeks, so it even makes it look more than a casual disagreement. Which is why I wrote something as everyone saw, and from a few likes on my post, clearly I wasn't the only one who saw the intent.

Then Deathcounter replied, said "my bad, but the facts are serious." I was like, alright respect for saying that, most may just let it fly. But then he posted again:

Fine, i am always so emotional around this topic because we could literally, literally safe billions of peoples lifes, save million species from going extinct, prevent loss of land because of rising seas etc. But fine.
I mean, I, and the kids nowadays learn(ed) about the greenhouse effect in primary school and there is a large scientific consensus that co2 and temperatur is linked but ok.
I am not one of those activists that wants to forbid everyone everything, all i want to say is that everyone here can decide on which side of history he wants to be on.
When my (someones) son or my (someones) daughter ask me, if i did something against global warming or inactions of people and politics, i dont want to find no words, i dont want to lie and i dont want to say its not my fault. When (s)he asks me i will tell that i reduced my meet consumption, i will tell that i tried to raise awareness, i will tell that i striked on streets with a cardboard sign, i will tell that i voted parties who fight for the same as i do.

My parents propably also asked their parents (my grandparents) what they did against the nazi regime. Against the million jews killed - its pretty much the same

Don't see any regret and some more sass is added from first two paragraphs alone. I mean hey, he did say he's emotional around these topics so maybe he's a real passionate activist to give him the benefit of the doubt.

The sass makes it more than a disagreement to me, especially the initial attempt to try and get a 1-UP on him. Looks like he wanted a fight with Belgium, and wouldn't that be called bullying? Then I saw:

Wow that must surely be one of the dumbest sentences ever on aoezone.

And then from Influenza which kind of seals it:

Go back to school kid LOL why isn't temp 50% warmer????

Would all this be considered bullying? Yes, no, maybe so? Am I missing something? You can see Deathcounter even liked this post, so there's more than disagreement here. Looks like an assault on Belgium's intelligence.

Your post and everyone else's is pretty much fine. Those I mentioned just caught my eyes easily. And if I am to be honest, I smirked a little at your mention of Trump university. That's a more amusing sass, not the kind that makes you feel bad.

Also, my mention of experts is because they get picked on more... its just the way it is from what I have seen.

I was never an expert, at least 1 rank down in my prime on Arabia, but more than a few people made fun of me for only playing Huns Arabia. My signature is even of one guy making fun in game room of Nicov and me for some reason, after I lost a game at like 20 min to a 2k (one of the more amusing things I heard). I know Hasan who got 2450 Huns or so, went through the same kind of thing. Someone attempted to trash Viper's reputation at one point being 2300 when playing a 1900 and asking for a save (actually the topic was 5 pages or something). I can go on and on... Honestly don't mean disrespect here, but if a 1600 did/said things like this, you wouldn't see as much as it is here.

 

[Athasos]

(risks and nuclear waste not concrete problem yet).

Karatšai – Wikipedia

fi.wikipedia.org

Concrete problem, it's estimated, that the nuclear waste around this area will soon reach groundwater and therefore will pollute the water in an entire area.

There are multiple places on earth where nuclear waste is an issue.
In southern Italy the mafia buried nuclear waste and many villages have record setting cancer rates.
Chernobyl is massively expensive, same for Fukushima.
Deconstructing the German Powerplants will cost Billions, all paid for by the taxpayer btw.
I could go on how mining uranium is already an issue and creates inhabitable areas.
They don't even know where to put all the parts of chernobyl after they will finish deconstruction in around 50 years.

You are evading all those concret examples and act like there are only minor risks and when I tell you the opposite is true you evade my arguments totally.
So either you start adressing my points or I am afraid you are the one arguing with ideology here.

 

[Huehuecoyotl22]

I did not expect this long discussion and did not read most of it. But it is better than the last one. People actually can learn from it.
I don't think Project_Belgium feels hurt from people saying he is wrong about a part of his reply. The easily criticised expert players need some humour and thick skin too. This is not too different from professional athletes saying something in an interview and then being ripped apart in the news and fan forums. AoEZone actually mostly is on a quite high and educated level though, which I like.
The previous long discussion was really people saying bad things to each other, which should be avoided, even with the many different opinions and levels of knowledge.

 

[_5_]

@Rayne
I agree with you on the point that there are some people going over the top to prove it, and that's is why i wrote relatively politely.
But I also think sometime we need to take in account that the arguments of others will come along with their personality, and to better our-selves, we as individual should learn to separate facts in the argument from their personality. This by no means being a **** or as you say just trying to be 1-UP is okay, and i am guilty of doing it sometimes too.

And for the influenza, last time that guy was taken seriously dinosaur were still alive, thats not to say he is not funny sometimes.

From what I understand this is too personal for you( I ain't no shrink though) and all I can say I sorry you had that experience. People who are more known to public will always have a target from people on their back, scrutinizing all their move.
But as huehue wrote we need to grow a thicker skin. That does not entail we would impervious to these comments, heck someday if i am feeling low and a random guy comments just a randomest of things I will be upset for sometime. But thats ok, it makes us human. The world is not a pretty place and it would never be, there will always be idiots and especially on internet, just leave them be.

Lastly, do come back and play some huns ara

Edit: Horry shit, that might be the most serious post i have ever made online LUL

 

[Rayne]

@Rayne
I agree with you on the point that there are some people going over the top to prove it, and that's is why i wrote relatively politely.
But I also think sometime we need to take in account that the arguments of others will come along with their personality, and to better our-selves, we as individual should learn to separate facts in the argument from their personality. This by no means being a **** or as you say just trying to be 1-UP is okay, and i am guilty of doing it sometimes too.

And for the influenza, last time that guy was taken seriously dinosaur were still alive, thats not to say he is not funny sometimes.

From what I understand this is too personal for you( I ain't no shrink though) and all I can say I sorry you had that experience. People who are more known to public will always have a target from people on their back, scrutinizing all their move.
But as huehue wrote we need to grow a thicker skin. That does not entail we would impervious to these comments, heck someday if i am feeling low and a random guy comments just a randomest of things I will be upset for sometime. But thats ok, it makes us human. The world is not a pretty place and it would never be, there will always be idiots and especially on internet, just leave them be.

Lastly, do come back and play some huns ara

Edit: Horry shit, that might be the most serious post i have ever made online LUL

I wouldn't quite make it out like a trauma. Just that kind of stuff gets real old real fast unless its a friend poking a little fun.

No one really does Huns anymore. I am fine with that unless few challenge me to Hun wars (which some have).

I did play some aoc every now and then when I was in the mood. But, I haven't aoc'd past two months as I was recovering from a serious arm injury. Its probably healed nearly as much as it can be, but now just recovering from a very bad migraine.

 

[iViktorius]

What has PBG got to do with anything? Just because he is a player from the same country doesnt mean he was involved in this interview.

 

[Influenza]

Ridicule is a valuable tool which can be used to help push the window of acceptable discourse towards evidence-based arguments and away from ignorant and unreasoned positions. Is it possible that such ridicule discourages people from publicly voicing strong opinions on topics about which they know very little? Yes. And that's the whole point.

If you're going to dissent from the well supported idea of anthropogenic climate change, I would certainly hope you could come up with something better than what we saw in this thread.

 

[sozey_]

So are you trying to argue that renewables are cheaper than nuclear energy? In clown world we live indeed.

You are very welcome to check this yourself. I looked for an unbiased source, and took the "Annual Energy Outlook 2019" from the US Energy Info Administration, an american government institution, in the moment supervised by the Trump administration, so certainly not biased towards renewable energy. So in 2019, only solar thermal energy (not photovoltaic) and offshore wind are more expensive than nuclear energy, even low efficiency sources like biomass and geothermal are cheaper than nuclear energy. Can be found here: https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/pdf/electricity_generation.pdf

So before you belittle me or someone else on this topic read some sources first