I'd like to ask some questions regarding the civ design of the Magyars in AoE2 and how accurately they are depicted compared to historical Magyars.
@Richard was instrumental in designing the Inca civ as he stated in the Inca thread so I'm assuming that he also worked on the Magyars since both civs came out in the same FE expansion. Also Richard has the Hungarian flag beside his name which means he should have more than a passing familiarity with Magyar history.
Now whether the Magyar civ is, competitively speaking, a good or bad civ is not really the primary concern of this thread. Personally I think they're fine, they have their strengths and weaknesses like most civs but this is mostly concerning history. I'll go through it by age.
Dark age:
The only remarkable bonus here is the 1 strike vs wolves and this might be a reference to their nomadic and in-tune with nature origins. Not a hunting bonus per se but a sort of map freedom bonus...the ability to take chances such as a sneak vill on BF or a forward vill on Arabia.
Question: the only question I have is, how come there wasn't a more concrete housing or hunting bonus (similar to Huns or Mongols) that was implemented? For example I had the idea of Magyars being able to drop hunted food off at houses. This would make taking deer a bit easier.
Feudal age:
When the Magyars first arrived on the scene in Europe they raided all over the continent including as far as France, Spain and even Netherlands. This is definitely wonderfully reflected by their early scout bonus which cost less and come with free forging. I have no question here, I think it's as good as it can get considering the limitations of the game. I do wish there was some sort of, even modest, eco bonus (mentioned above) to go along with it. But it is what it is.
Castle age:
By gaining Iron Casting for free, the Magyars receive another strong albeit short-lived power spike. This is somewhat reflected in history. In 1241 the Magyars got their asses handed to them by the Mongols and it served as a good wake-up call because the Mongol invasion caused the Hungarian king to invest heavily into the military and into fortifications. And it worked, they won decisive battles against the Mongols during their 2nd and 3rd invasions. In fact the Hungarian Black Army (as it was called) became one of the most respected of the time.
Question: the original UT was called Mercenaries (now called Corvinian Army - possibly a reference to the renowned Black Army), but I'm wondering why the Black Army wasn't represented a bit better in the game. For example in my own Magyar civ design my UU was called the Black Army knight...a very expensive heavy cav unit with a gun. Kinda like a heavier version of the Conquistador.
Imperial age:
In the game the Magyars become one of the strongest civs in late imperial if the player manages to mass enough Heavy CA and pair them with Magyar Huszars. Doesn't exactly line up with history because Magyars by that time had already abandoned the Cav Archer but timelines are hard to do properly in the game. The Magyar Huszar lines up a bit better and perhaps is a reference to the hit and run tactics after Hungary was defeated by the Ottoman empire in 1526.
Question: my biggest gripe with this civ is why it is missing gunpowder. Civs that 100% never had gunpowder get them in the game but the Magyars who arguably made some of the best uses of gunpowder in the period, deserve at least hand cannons or bombard cannons or even bombard towers. Just look at this snippet from wiki on the Hungarian Black Army:
They were on the leading edge of gunpowder usage and yet in the game it's as if it's non-existent. This is especially compounded by the fact that the Magyars have probably the worst siege in the game...the only civ to miss both Siege Rams AND Bombard Cannons and not having a UT to make up for it somehow on their trebs (like Britons or Japanese). Hungary also employed vast number of cannons in both defense and offense.
Not giving them Hand Cannons I can see because they already get FU Arbalest and really good Heavy CA so I guess that's fine. But considering how bad their siege is, the one that has always seemed bewildering to me is not giving them bombard cannons. I mean it's not like bombard cannons are free...so I don't see it as such a massive buff.
Besides it's not about buffing them but historical references. Like I said I think the game does fairly well to represent Magyars in dark, feudal and castle age but in Imperial Age the devs really dropped the proverbial cannon ball.
Well anyway would be cool if this opens the door to some discussions and maybe even the devs reconsidering the whole bombard cannon thing. I mean it's in history and they didn't just use gunpowder, they were on the leading edge. A Hungarian even engineered the cannon that broke Constantinople's gates open for the Ottomans.
@Richard was instrumental in designing the Inca civ as he stated in the Inca thread so I'm assuming that he also worked on the Magyars since both civs came out in the same FE expansion. Also Richard has the Hungarian flag beside his name which means he should have more than a passing familiarity with Magyar history.
Now whether the Magyar civ is, competitively speaking, a good or bad civ is not really the primary concern of this thread. Personally I think they're fine, they have their strengths and weaknesses like most civs but this is mostly concerning history. I'll go through it by age.
Dark age:
The only remarkable bonus here is the 1 strike vs wolves and this might be a reference to their nomadic and in-tune with nature origins. Not a hunting bonus per se but a sort of map freedom bonus...the ability to take chances such as a sneak vill on BF or a forward vill on Arabia.
Question: the only question I have is, how come there wasn't a more concrete housing or hunting bonus (similar to Huns or Mongols) that was implemented? For example I had the idea of Magyars being able to drop hunted food off at houses. This would make taking deer a bit easier.
Feudal age:
When the Magyars first arrived on the scene in Europe they raided all over the continent including as far as France, Spain and even Netherlands. This is definitely wonderfully reflected by their early scout bonus which cost less and come with free forging. I have no question here, I think it's as good as it can get considering the limitations of the game. I do wish there was some sort of, even modest, eco bonus (mentioned above) to go along with it. But it is what it is.
Castle age:
By gaining Iron Casting for free, the Magyars receive another strong albeit short-lived power spike. This is somewhat reflected in history. In 1241 the Magyars got their asses handed to them by the Mongols and it served as a good wake-up call because the Mongol invasion caused the Hungarian king to invest heavily into the military and into fortifications. And it worked, they won decisive battles against the Mongols during their 2nd and 3rd invasions. In fact the Hungarian Black Army (as it was called) became one of the most respected of the time.
Question: the original UT was called Mercenaries (now called Corvinian Army - possibly a reference to the renowned Black Army), but I'm wondering why the Black Army wasn't represented a bit better in the game. For example in my own Magyar civ design my UU was called the Black Army knight...a very expensive heavy cav unit with a gun. Kinda like a heavier version of the Conquistador.
Imperial age:
In the game the Magyars become one of the strongest civs in late imperial if the player manages to mass enough Heavy CA and pair them with Magyar Huszars. Doesn't exactly line up with history because Magyars by that time had already abandoned the Cav Archer but timelines are hard to do properly in the game. The Magyar Huszar lines up a bit better and perhaps is a reference to the hit and run tactics after Hungary was defeated by the Ottoman empire in 1526.
Question: my biggest gripe with this civ is why it is missing gunpowder. Civs that 100% never had gunpowder get them in the game but the Magyars who arguably made some of the best uses of gunpowder in the period, deserve at least hand cannons or bombard cannons or even bombard towers. Just look at this snippet from wiki on the Hungarian Black Army:
They were on the leading edge of gunpowder usage and yet in the game it's as if it's non-existent. This is especially compounded by the fact that the Magyars have probably the worst siege in the game...the only civ to miss both Siege Rams AND Bombard Cannons and not having a UT to make up for it somehow on their trebs (like Britons or Japanese). Hungary also employed vast number of cannons in both defense and offense.
Not giving them Hand Cannons I can see because they already get FU Arbalest and really good Heavy CA so I guess that's fine. But considering how bad their siege is, the one that has always seemed bewildering to me is not giving them bombard cannons. I mean it's not like bombard cannons are free...so I don't see it as such a massive buff.
Besides it's not about buffing them but historical references. Like I said I think the game does fairly well to represent Magyars in dark, feudal and castle age but in Imperial Age the devs really dropped the proverbial cannon ball.
Well anyway would be cool if this opens the door to some discussions and maybe even the devs reconsidering the whole bombard cannon thing. I mean it's in history and they didn't just use gunpowder, they were on the leading edge. A Hungarian even engineered the cannon that broke Constantinople's gates open for the Ottomans.