As always: Whatever TriRem says@RichNixon @TriRem so what would be your suggestion, just for curiosity?
In general I like the changes but this discussion makes me think if eco techs costed no food would have been better indeed.
@TriRem are you part of that balancer discussion discord? I think you could do well there giving your suggestions directly to thre devs. I have faith most of what you re thinking can work well in the game.
How do you enter to that discord? I'm interested on it, even if is only to hear what you guys are talking about
It's awkward. Ideally I would change the bonus. If that's not possible, then I (and others) have had several ideas to spice up Vietnamese. Not all of them should be included together of course. In no particular order :@RichNixon @TriRem so what would be your suggestion, just for curiosity? Considering that the wood eco bonus would probably stay. What would you change? Would yo give them a military bonus on top? Free elite skirmishers obviously comes to mind. Personally, I would like Rattan archers to deal bonus damage to chu ko nus
I am indeed part of the balance discord, that's why I have had plenty of time to think about the strength of the Vietnamese eco bonus and the alternatives. I suggested it to be changed to food saving but you can't always get the changes you want.@TriRem are you part of that balancer discussion discord? I think you could do well there giving your suggestions directly to thre devs. I have faith most of what you re thinking can work well in the game.
Elephants included in the +20% HP archer bonus. That would give them +50 HP, +60 for elite. Would also free up Chatras to be changed into something more interesting.
Yes to first. To the second, well, i think it would ve easier to give the equivalent to 1 relic to each player. (yeah, it's an advantage that can't be taken away, but is not that big)
- TC bonus changed to reveal all enemy TCs and docks and not just starting one
- Paper money changed to "Team farmers generate a trickle of gold" (2 gold/minute per farmer, 15 farmers = 1 relic)
am indeed part of the balance discord, that's why I have had plenty of time to think about the strength of the Vietnamese eco bonus and the alternatives
I am indeed part of the balance discord, that's why I have had plenty of time to think about the strength of the Vietnamese eco bonus and the alternatives. I suggested it to be changed to food saving but you can't always get the changes you want.
I'm already happy for the Genitour buff, been asking for it for months now 11
I agree that the raw numbers don't tell the story. However, food at mid to late castle is one of the highest value resource in most of the game. Other civ bonuses in comparison also save huge amount to resources cumulatively in castle age (Ethiopians, Vikings as you said, also Huns, Britons & few more probably). But none of it is all food. Vikings probably save the most food with free instant hand cart. I won't consider Pikeman research as saved food in because it is not something that you always research in castle age for other civs & does not directly impact eco (as opposed to "eco" upgrades).First that's only 775 food in castle age, Vietnamese don't get stone shaft mining. I won't count Gillnets because they aren't relevant the vast majority of the time.
Looking at raw numbers is not always the way to go. In castle age Ethiopians get +200 resources, free pikeman (305 resources) and essentially free thumb ring (550 resources). That's the equivalent of a 1000 resources saved, yet I don't think I've seen people complaining that Ethiopians save too much.
Raw numbers don't tell the whole story. Vikings save 500 ressources on free Hand Cart alone, and that has several benefits that make it superior to the Viet bonus despite being less resources on paper. It's instant, unlike Vietnamese who have to research the techs. This is particularly relevant for TC technologies, which cut down on vil production.
It's also relevant for timing, Vikings will always get the benefit of their free tech instantly when reaching castle, while Vietnamese to actually make the effort of researching these techs, possibly delaying the effect by several minutes. Delaying Hand Cart by two minutes on a 20 farmers eco means over 120 food less in the bank.
All in all, saving food on eco techs would be a strong bonus, possibly on a similar level to Vikings bonus, most likely not as strong.
But such a strong bonus is what Vietnamese need. Viets have a very generic military until and throughout the midgame, and no clear gameplay identity besides vaguely archers. Vietnamese are basically Vikings if they had a lukewarm eco instead of a top tier one, and that's not an interesting civilization design.
I just did a quick comparison of Viking & Vietnamese. They are very similar in tech tree with following major differences for Vietnamese (apart from Civ bonuses, Unique Units & bunch of monk techs):In the case of Vietnamese, I think making them similar to Vikings, with having a very strong eco be inherent part of their design is something that would be truly beneficial. Kind of like Aztecs, whose top tier eco is their defining trait.
Agreed completely.Point is, lukewarm eco bonuses work for civs whose problem is purely on a balance level. If the problem is on a design level, either the bonus has to be top tier to the point of defining the civ, or the overall civ has to be drastically changed.
I think they have good options against Eagles. FU Infantry in Castle Age & only missing Blast Furnace in Imperial. They also have FU Castle age stable + Elephants. I think their main issue is probably that they are much slower than any meso civ in early & mid game.Maybe Vietnamese should get HC to have an answer against Eagle Warrior or just give Rattan Archer back there old anti Infantry bonus.