2023 Nations Cup Group Stage

[GM_Septic]

As a longtime player I would like to talk about this
#1: We don't intentionally save games or crash games
Currently in Vietnam there are 5 international cable routes and all 5 of these cables are broken and in the process of being repaired, so lag or game crashes often occur during this time during peak hours, we have Try to arrange time with team china at 23:00 to avoid lag or game crash because at this time the number of visitors will be less than during peak hours.
#2: we planned each match before the match started
What about game 3?
It can be said that BBoy has outlined his strategy when he often watches stream mach team china vs (goth and burmese), he told us when china A picks goth and burmese (since draft civils)
What about after restoring the game?
we knew bumese was in the middle of going to fast castle so couldn't support lyx at the time and we needed clear that fast
#3: ssong problem I have nothing to say
because he's really stupid doing it on his own st

The administrator Huehue did not say anthing about that cheating is acceptable. IMO he just drew the attention to the truth that this kind of cheating is especially hard to be caught in current game system.

The best way is just that developers add the tournament setting, e.g. after resign the map in this mode should not be revealed to the players. In addition the ban-pick system could be integrated in this setting. It also helps the players because there are a few examples that they unintentionally chose the wrong Civ in the matches. But since I not a programmer, I have no clue whether it is hard to realize.

I was very mild in my criticism and all i asked was to rethink/ explain what he was meaning to do next.

I apologise if I hurt anyone.

Having said that, SongSong has been known to cheat in the past. It would be a valid consideration for a suitable action.

 

[GM_Septic]

I did never say he will not be punished.

Glad to hear it. Many friends of mine from China were fairly upset that happened.

Mr. Yo and Lyx are too kind to give it a second thought.

Honestly , one wouldn't care so much what happened yesterday. It's just that things like these should not happen again and again. In SongSongs case, he is a repeat offender.

Thanks for hosting the tournament. You do what you think is right.

 

[Semisky]

he told with team in discord chat voice (since draft civils when china A picked goth and burmese)
iam saymyname main acc in aoezone

Wow, I thought most of the famous players got ID on aoezone, but never mind.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[DracKeN]

#3: ssong problem I have nothing to say
because he's really stupid doing it on his own stream

So he's stupid to cheat on stream? I believe it's absolutely irrelevant whether he's cheating with or without stream open.
I do hope, this is just lack of English. Otherwise this is lack of moral, which would be far worse. At the same time, teaming 3 cheaters kind of shows the same.

 

[kalpit00]

Atleast SayMyName is showing accountability by responding here. No wonder ACCM does not want to associate with SongSong and Badboy in anyway. They seem to be the repeat offenders, especially SongSong, this is what his 3rd or 4th time?

In any case, there's no way SongSong can defend himself really, he has been caught red handed. As far as the accusation of purposely crashing the game, I think that's a bit too far fetched (Not impossible, but you'd have to really sink low morally if you are purposely plugging off the internet/abusing some bug to crash the game just so you can restore and check enemy's strategy)

 

[ChriSt]

Honestly, i miss the days of ACCM, BacT, saymynane etc.

I think this is pretty sad and should not be tolerated….

 

[zShades]

Personal suggestion: Vietnam A gets DQ and Italy A advance to quarterfinals

 

[29_]

So he's stupid to cheat on stream? I believe it's absolutely irrelevant whether he's cheating with or without stream open.
I do hope, this is just lack of English. Otherwise this is lack of moral, which would be far worse. At the same time, teaming 3 cheaters kind of shows the same.

Again, we do not intentionally force save game or crash game, this is a network problem in Vietnam currently (including bboy , ssong , tieuquy ) game1 we ask to save because ss has ping 180-200 too high compared to sever Asia and China A agree to save (if China A doesn't agree, have to continue) game 3 bboy was interrupted for 3-4 minutes then bboy came back (he asked to pause the game in voice chat because his game he doesn't work then we don't hear his voice anymore and his game crashes)

For the first time ever Vietnam is experiencing four out of the five submarine Internet cable systems broken

Service providers predict that the local slowdown and decrease in quality of international internet access will continue for a few more weeks.

vietnaminsider.vn

Do you have any problems with us? you have no right to say the word "moral" here. You should be careful in your words because it can affect many other people
As for the badboy in this matchup, he did nothing wrong and it seems like everyone is talking about his past too much.
In the end, ssong did something wrong and he will be punished by the organizers, even if it affects the current team, we accept that.

 

[Snizl]

Again, we do not intentionally force save game or crash game, this is a network problem in Vietnam currently (including bboy , ssong , tieuquy ) game1 we ask to save because ss has ping 180-200 too high compared to sever Asia and China A agree to save (if China A doesn't agree, have to continue) game 3 bboy was interrupted for 3-4 minutes then bboy came back (he asked to pause the game in voice chat because his game he doesn't work then we don't hear his voice anymore and his game crashes)

For the first time ever Vietnam is experiencing four out of the five submarine Internet cable systems broken

Service providers predict that the local slowdown and decrease in quality of international internet access will continue for a few more weeks.

vietnaminsider.vn

Do you have any problems with us? you have no right to say the word "moral" here. You should be careful in your words because it can affect many other people
As for the badboy in this matchup, he did nothing wrong and it seems like everyone is talking about his past too much.
In the end, ssong did something wrong and he will be punished by the organizers, even if it affects the current team, we accept that.

Thank you for the clarification. I was rooting for you guys that game, as i usually do for vietnam games and was very disappointed reading about those issues later. I understand it was songsong as an individual and not the whole team, but I would suggest to you guys that you should hold people accountable for such actions in your own team. Dont be quiet about it and let it slide, but speak out about it within the team. Tell your mates to behave honorably and sportsmanlike. Some vietnamese players seem to have no moral problem with cheating and the only people that can change that kind of attitude are the people themselves and the people they associate with. I would really like to see you succeed in fair games during future Events as honorable players.

 

[DracKeN]

Do you have any problems with us? you have no right to say the word "moral" here. You should be careful in your words because it can affect many other people
As for the badboy in this matchup, he did nothing wrong and it seems like everyone is talking about his past too much.
In the end, ssong did something wrong and he will be punished by the organizers, even if it affects the current team, we accept that.

If you're saying SongSong is dumb for cheating on stream, it means for me: he'd dumb to get caught AKA cheating is fine, cheating on stream isn't. Then yeah, you have major problems understanding what moral is. Again, I do hope that's not what you meant and I gave you the benefit of the doubt due to lack of English.
About Badboy, he was caught cheating multiple times in the past. He's teaming the worst active cheater pretty much since DE came out and apparently he has no issues with that. You're teaming SongSong and Badboy and apparently you have no issues with that either. So you team a cheater and then you blame him for being stupid and cheat in tournaments? Don't be funny. Lack of moral is pretty evident in entire VNS A team, not just SongSong.

 

[Influenza]

For anyone attempting to rehabilitate ACCM here: He put his reputation on the line to defend Badboy 2 years ago when it was obvious he was stream cheating, and he teamed with SongSong and Badboy in boa3 not even a year ago. Not cheating this time? Hardly a praise-worthy accomplishment

 

[Memeluke]

if anything, songsong looking at the enemy base in the defeated screen indicates that he didn't have a second monitor with Yo's stream on it like we all expected

 

[RuniVN]

Hi all, I am writing to you as a friend of SongSong, who recently made a mistake that has caused some controversy. As a fellow member of the AOE2 community, I would like to offer my perspective on the situation.

Firstly, I would like to emphasize that VNS A team is a group of players who have developed a strong strategy over time, I can see their hard training together, every day, since a half year ago. They did have a compelling progress on their skills. While SongSong's cheating behavior may have given his team a slight advantage, it did not significantly impact the outcome of the game.

Furthermore, it is worth noting that my friend's behavior was not unique in the gaming community. Many players engage in similar "dirty tactics", but simply do not stream their games for others to see. I think it's fair to say that many of us have done the same thing at least once in our AOE2 journey.

In this case, SongSong's behavior may have been a reflexive action that he did not fully think through. While this is not an excuse for his actions, it is important to acknowledge that we are all human and capable of making mistakes.

In closing, I know it's hard to ask for your understanding and forgiveness regarding SongSong's mistake. But I can't deny his effort to try his best to get better in AOE2. I believe that he is genuinely sorry and has learned from his actions. Let us not allow this one mistake to define him or his contributions to the gaming community.

 

[ManchildTV]

Firstly, I would like to emphasize that VNS A team is a group of players who have developed a strong strategy over time, I can see their hard training together, every day, since a half year ago. They did have a compelling progress on their skills. While SongSong's cheating behavior may have given his team a slight advantage, it did not significantly impact the outcome of the game.

Ah yes, they probably could have won if they played fairly. But they chose not to play fairly. It's not up to admins to give them the benefit of the doubt. This is a clear AW/AL situation.

Furthermore, it is worth noting that my friend's behavior was not unique in the gaming community. Many players engage in similar "dirty tactics", but simply do not stream their games for others to see. I think it's fair to say that many of us have done the same thing at least once in our AOE2 journey.

Really? That says a lot about you and your friends.

Yo and Lyx were both streaming. Both quit the game immediately after VN-A requested the restores in Games 1 and 3; neither looked at the map.

Meanwhile Songsong looked at opponents' map for 30 seconds in Game 1, and later (mysteriously) stopped his stream. Nobody can even see what the VN team did when they asked for restore in Game 3. (but obviously, with the stream off, their behavior can only be worse)

And as have been pointed out, in Game 1 SongSong was chatting with his team the entire time when he was analyzing the opponents' map, but not a single Vietnamese has come out to help us translate what he is saying. The 3-4 Vietnamese posters in these threads have had ample opportunity to help us clarify our understanding of what happened, and refused to help. And yet you continue to expect other players give SongSong the benefit of the doubt.

In this case, SongSong's behavior may have been a reflexive action that he did not fully think through.

If cheating is reflexive to someone, it's probably time to exclude him from competitive play.

While this is not an excuse for his actions, it is important to acknowledge that we are all human and capable of making mistakes. In closing, I know it's hard to ask for your understanding and forgiveness regarding SongSong's mistake. But I can't deny his effort to try his best to get better in AOE2. I believe that he is genuinely sorry and has learned from his actions. Let us not allow this one mistake to define him or his contributions to the gaming community.

Non-cheaters deserve the opportunity over cheaters. One cheater tarnishes the entire tournament, reduces the revenue stream for everyone, and makes the job painful for admins. How can you seriously talk about "contributions" when all he has contributed in the last 3 years - over another random 2.5k player - is multiple incidents of fraud and cheating?

 

[King_Marv]

How is possible to be that stupid lol

 

[DracKeN]

I guess it's time to move to another topic then. SongSong's friend did apologize, SongSong didn't know what he's doing is not fair/against the rules, he'll learn from it. Give him some slack.

 

[100Dragonstar]

I guess it's time to move to another topic then. SongSong's friend did apologize, SongSong didn't know what he's doing is not fair/against the rules, he'll learn from it. Give him some slack.

i agree , everyone deserves a 20th chance.

 

[LockeAoC]

Some people just can’t avoid trouble…

 

[Freezing_Point]

Some people just can’t avoid trouble…

I guess when you've avoided punishment in the past there doesn't seem to be much incentive to avoid trouble.

 

[zatekusen]

How many times I have to talk about that Badboy alt tab incident 11. Not doing it again, peoole can check my post history if interested. Basically similar to 3DBee situation.

It's has been obvious that nothing can change Influenza mind one bit, but I will try to not let him make it sounds like a "confirmed, obvious cheating". Most likely I will fail though, since he's lurking here much more than I am.

Back to this incident, Songsong behaviour obviously requires some actions from admin. Let them decide that.

Besides that, we should think about how to improve the situation. To avoid players getting harassed by stream cheating accusation (it can get much more ugly out there), I do think tournament should forbid players from streaming their POV live, or at least it should be 5/10 mins delay, same as the in-game spectators. The streaming players has no ill-intention but it exposes their opponent to cheating accusation. Like when playing poker, even with trusted friend, you should still hide your cards from view.

For viewing map after save, like other said there should be a tournament mode, or even default behavior, when you can not view the map after resign. As a software engineer I think it will be easy to overcome if you really want to cheat with how Aoe2 engine works, but at least it require putting in some effort.

The current state is like putting a pile of gold out there with no protection, people need to make effort to ignore it.

 

[LowEloNobody]

I do think tournament should forbid players from streaming their POV live, or at least it should be 5/10 mins delay, same as the in-game spectators. The streaming players has no ill-intention but it exposes their opponent to cheating accusation.

This is a horrible idea. Pros will just stop participating in A/B-tier tournaments where one of the main motivations is content / streams.

For viewing map after save, like other said there should be a tournament mode, or even default behavior, when you can not view the map after resign. As a software engineer I think it will be easy to overcome if you really want to cheat with how Aoe2 engine works, but at least it require putting in some effort.

Let's not change a fun and useful post-game tool to prevent *one single player* from cheating. This is literally only an issue for pro-level tournament games when there is a drop/restore. We shouldn't punish the other 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999% of players who want to analyze the map/game after a match and have done nothing wrong.

 

[_Donatello_]

I believe that he is genuinely sorry and has learned from his actions. Let us not allow this one mistake to define him or his contributions to the gaming community.

What makes people so mad in SongSong case is that he shows that he don't learn from his actons and are only sorry he got caught. If you look at Ganjis post this is not "his one mistake"

Should be same rules as they tried in sports, 1 time occurence gives 6 months ban if you repeat offend ban for life.

 

[Akkal]

The official admin decision is as follows, just released in the tournament discord:

The Admin team has reached a decision regarding Game 1 between Vietnam A and China A. We've reviewed the footage of the incident (also had it translated) and have spoken with both teams. In this regard, we want to commend both teams for their transparency, willingness, and acceptance of the decision throughout this process.

We also feel it is worth highlighting the current instability of Vietnamese internet due to force majeure as it could have played a part in the overall quality of the connection during the games, though it does not excuse the teams from their responsibility to adhere by the rules.

That said, rules were broken and thus we will apply a set of punishment accordingly.

**Game 1 state:**
- Considered void, will be played again.

**For China A:**
- Tim will serve a one game suspension for the replay of the match.
- China A will be given an official warning

*Tim also viewed the map. We feel China A's transparency on the rule breaking of one of their own players, it being the first rule violation of the team, as well as their willingness to cooperate with the admin team to resolve the issue warrants a slightly lessen punishment.*

**For Vietnam A:**
- SongSong is officially disqualified from NC23 and any potential future fixtures of the series under this same administration.
- The team will be deducted 15% of any potential earnings for NC23.
- All players must now screen share their POV during their remaining matches, potentially extending to Finals matches as well pending review.

*SongSong will not be allowed to participate in the event any longer. The team understood they were already warned prior to the start of the event and any violation of the rules would result in his disqualification.*

 

[SylvesterLuo]

*Tim also viewed the map. We feel China A's transparency on the rule breaking of one of their own players, it being the first rule violation of the team, as well as their willingness to cooperate with the admin team to resolve the issue warrants a slightly lessen punishment.*

Didn't know China A had cheated as well. Map viewing is surely a moral test.

Did Tim confess voluntarily? I see people commented that Yo and Lyx instantly closed the game in their stream. Did Tim stream as well?

 

[Akkal]

Didn't know China A had cheated as well. Map viewing is surely a moral test.

Did Tim confess voluntarily? I see people commented that Yo and Lyx instantly closed the game in their stream. Did Tim stream as well?

When discussing the situation with the players, and explaining what had been observed from SongSong’s stream, Yo admitted without any encouragement to do so, that Tim had also looked at the map before quitting.