And what about increasing the conversion resistance of light cavalry so that they really counter monks?
Huns would like the scout reduced cost, but keep in mind the huns are significantly nerfed in AOAK as is, and all other civs will have stronger m@a to deal w it and a reduced food cost on there scouts as well, so i dont see it favoring huns that much when all is considered.
To address your point OneMillion about the swordsman changes, a more conservative solution would be to increase movement speed on only longswords and up and remove the 5 food reduction from the scout line, although i believe the alternate solution would promote better balance.
And what about increasing the conversion resistance of light cavalry so that they really counter monks?
I like this idea
But at the same time, walling is harder in Forgotten Empires. I don't think Huns or Aztecs mind trading a bit of their economic power for having a bigger window of opportunity to ram home a rush over slower civilizations. Also, there's a balance concern with Magyars combining even cheaper scouts (this would be 68 food) with free forging at a very early stage in the game. That's where you're getting into the territory of games that are, as Hobbes would put it, "nasty, brutish and short".
That would be more workable, but longswordsmen are still less cost-efficient than knights and archers can abuse micromanagement. Goths are the only civilisation who have cheap enough sowrdsmen to be cost-efficient, but even then, cheaper infantry is the entirety of their bonus. For -35%, any economic bonuses would be terrifying.
I dont think scouts are "good enough" against monks. If this is arena and 5 monks fight 5 scouts it doesnt always end well for the scouts (especially aztec monks).
I dont think scouts are "good enough" against monks. If this is arena and 5 monks fight 5 scouts it doesnt always end well for the scouts (especially aztec monks).
Well, there's two things to being harder to convert, one is a higher conversion resistance (which means a lower chance of being converted with each attempt), the other is having higher min/max times (the minimum and maximum amount of attempts needed from a monk to convert a unit). If you want to make sure that scouts vs. monks always works out, you'd have to especially increase the min times to avoid an unlikely, but possible, early conversion.
However, I'm pretty sure that's not something that can be changed for a single unit, at least I have found nothing in the genie editor that seems related to this for individual units. You could reduce the overall randomness of monks, that's something Carlos Ferdinand has done in his patch iirc.
So on the whole, Aztecs are even stronger on arena than in The Conquerors.
This is something that I came up with just for fun. I’ve been playing AOF and AOAK since they came out and reached 2200 elo, while at the same time watching thousands of games of AOC. Here are some balance changes I would like to see and why I would like to see them. Feel free to comment, discuss, or troll below. Just something I did for fun. Enjoy.
General Balance Changes
Barracks
Swordsman Line
•Tracking moved to Dark Age. Cost reduced to 30 food. Research time reduced to 15s
•Militia -1 pierce armor
•Men-at-arms +2 additional bonus attack vs Eagles (for +4 total)
•Men-at-Arms and up +5% movement speed
•Longswordman and Two-handed swordsman +1 melee armor
•Champion +5 hp
Spear Line
•Archers only do +2 bonus attack vs spear line (from +3 bonus attack)
•Pikeman upgrade cost reduced to 150 food 90 gold (from 215 food 90 gold)
Archery Range
•Crossbow upgrade cost increased to 150 food 100 gold (from 125 food 75 gold)
•Elite Skirmisher upgrade cost reduced to 150 wood 100 gold
•Heavy Cavalry Archer upgrade cost reduced to 700 food 400 gold (from 900 food 500 gold)
Stable
•Husbandry cost reduced to 200 food (from 250 food)
•Cavalier research time -10s
•Scout line -5 food
Siege Workshop
•Siege tower cost reduced to 200 wood 160 gold (from 300 wood 160 gold). -20hp.
•Siege towers can pick up units over walls
•Mangonel line +2 bonus armour vs towers
Monastery
•Monks (and missionaries) average conversion time increased from 8s to 9s. Conversion randomness reduced.
•Herbal Medicine cost reduced to 100 gold (from 350 gold)
Dock
•Demorafts do +35 additional bonus damage vs docks (from 180 to 215)
•Demoships do +50 damage vs docks (from 220 to 270 bonus damage)
•Gillnets cost reduced to 100 wood 100 food (from 200 wood 150 food)
•Heavy demo ships blast radius reduced by .5
University
•Arrowslits causes +1 attack to watch towers/guard towers/keeps
Market
•Cartography researched automatically with market
•Base tribute rate increased to 40% (from 30%)
•Guilds research time reduced to 30s (from 50s)
Walls
•Pallisades and stone walls take +1 sec to biuld
•Houses -100 hp
Economy
•Horse Collar, Heavy Plow, and Crop Rotation research time reduced to 15s
•Hand Cart cost reduced to 150 wood 250 food (from 200 wood 300 food)
Bombard tower
•Cost increased to 150 stone 125 gold (from 150 stone 100 gold)
Anti-laming
•Boars cause +6 attack vs scouts and +7 attack vs eagle scouts
Annoying stuff
•Villagers don’t drop off their resources until they are gathering a new resource
Civilization Specific Bonuses
Aztecs
• 18% creation speed bonus does not effect monk creation time
• Monks only gain +3hp for each monk tech researched (from +5)
Berbers
• Cavalry cost -10% castle age, -15% imperial age.
• Cavalry +5/10/15% faster in feudal/castle/imperial age.
• Husbandary removed.
• Genitor +1 Range, -1 attack
• Receive Ring archer armor
Britons
• Longbow (and elite) +5% accuracy
Byzantines
• Free town patrol
• Logistica displays on Cataphract unit icon when researched
Celts
• Infantry only move only 10% faster (from 15% faster)
• Woad Raider (and elite) +5% base movement speed
• Siege Weapons fire 15 % faster (from 25% faster)
• Furror Celtica increases siege hp by 35% (from 40%)
Chinese
• Start with only 5 villagers (from 6) but +50 food
• Get Hand Cannoneer and Bombard Cannon
• Bloodlines removed
Ethiopians
• Extra resources per age reduced to +75 food & +75 gold (from +100 each)
• Team bonus also gives castles +3 line of sight
• Arsons removed
Franks
• Chivalry increases stable work speed by only 25% (from 40%)
Goths
• Infantry +1 attack vs buildings removed
• Receive free Arsons
• Goth infantry cost bonus reduced by 7% (from 35% to 28%)
Huns
• Tarkans (non-elite) +1 attack. Elite Tarkan upgrade +200 food 100 gold (to 1200 food 600 gold)
• Stone Walls removed
Incas
• Team bonus changed to individual bonus and effect changed to farms reseed instantly and farm techs research instantly
• Team bonus changed to Slingers availible in ally's Archery Ranges
• Slingers -1 attack
Indians
• Fishing ships -10% cost
• Elephant archer (and elite) +5% movement speed
Italians
• None
Japanese
• Bloodlines removed
• Arrowslits removed
Koreans
• +3 Villager LOS bonus changed to team bonus
• +1 Mangonel line range restored, but as an individual bonus
• Shinkichon effect changed to mangonel line minimum range reduced by 1 (from 3 to 2). Cost reduced to 200 food & 200 gold.
Magyars
• Scout cost reduction bonus reduced to 8% from 10%.
Malians
• Reduced building cost bonus changed such that it does not apply to farms
• +1 infantry pierce armor bonus per age removed
• Swordsman upgrades researched free with Barracks (from militia to man-at-arms ect…)
• Infantry armor technologies researched free with blacksmith
• Arsons removed
Mayans
• 3% farm nerf removed (how much is this nerf really?)
• Plumed archer (and elite) – 5 hp (from 50/65 to 45/60)
• Obsidian Arrows causes +2 bonus building attack for all archers (including Plumed Archers)
Mongols
• Hunters gather only 40% faster
• Cavalry archers only fire 20% faster (from 25% faster)
• Elite Mangudie fire delay increased to .2s (from 0)
• Drill only adds +40% movement speed to siege (from 50%)
• Nomads effect changed to “Mongols do not need houses”
• Fortified Walls removed
Persians
• War Elephants (and Elite) cost – 40 food. Have 420/500 hp (non-elite/elite). -5s creation time. Move 15% faster.
• Elite War Elephant technology costs 1400 food 800 gold (from 1600 food 800 gold)
• Mahouts increases War Elephant movement speed only by 15% (from 30%)
• Boiling Oil effect changed to castles do +5 melee damage (first arrow) and may fire at base
• Murder holes removed
• Receive Fortified Walls
Portuguese
• Arquebus does not increase the cannon speed of bombard cannons or bombard towers
• Organ guns have the same minimum range as skirmishers.
• Portuguese -15% gold cost bonus does not apply to ships
• Caravel (and elite) -10hp
Saracens
• Archery Ranges cost -25% (130 wood from 175 wood)
• Mamelukes (non-elite) +1 attack and +5hp
• Elite Mameluke upgrade +200 gold (from 600 food 500 gold to 600 food 700 gold).
Zealotry -200 gold (from 750 food 800 gold to 750 food 600 gold)
Slavs
• Orthodoxy cost reduced to 200 food 100 gold (from 200 food 300 gold)
• Druzhina cost reduced to 800 food 400 gold (from 1200 food 500 gold)
Spanish
• Team bonus trade bonus reduced to 15% (from 33%)
• Elite Conquistadors +1 attack
Teutons
• Teutonic Knights (and elite) +10% movement speed
• Herbal Medicine free
• Recieve siege ram
Turks
• Stables cost -25 % wood (130 wood from 175 wood)
• Artillery costs 300 stone 500 gold (from 450 stone 500 gold)
• Demo ships +2 line of sight
• Sipahi provides only +15 hp to Cavalry Archers (from 20)
Vikings
• Receive fire galley (but not fire ship)
• Elite Berserk base hp increased to 65 (from 62) or to 78 hp for a Viking in Imperial Age
• Berserkergang effect changed to all infantry regenerate at 1hp/3s (stacks w Berserk base regeneration).
• Chieftains displays on Berserk unit icon when researched
Decisons whether to buff or nerf civs were based on grades assigned below for AOAK. Based on my own personal experience. Each grade was given a 20% weight towards the overall grade except 1v1 Arabia which recieved a 40% weight since a civ good at 1v1 Arabia should also be profficient as the flank in a team game in most circumstances.
AOAK Civ Rankings
Civilization 1v1 Arabia, Pocket Team Game, Black Forest (Late Game), Water, Overall
Aztecs A C B C B
Berbers B A+ C A B
Britons A C B C B
Byzantines B B- B A B+
Celts A B A+ B A
Chinese B B+ B B+ B+
Ethiopians A C A C B+
Franks A- A+ A C A
Goths B A- B C B
Huns A A B C B+
Incas A C C C B-
Indians B A- A C B+
Italians B B+ B A B+
Japanese A B C A B+
Koreans B B A+ B B+
Magyars A A B C B+
Malians A- A- B B- B+
Mayans A B C C B
Mongols A A+ A+ B- A
Persians B+ A A B B+
Portuguese C A A+ A A
Saracens C B A A B
Slavs B B A C B
Spanish B A A+ C B+
Teutons B A- B+ C B-
Turks C B A C B-
Vikings A- C C A- B
I understand if people disagree with the changes i have listed, or agree but believe that conservative changes are more appropriate, but to say my changes are horrible and propose more unbalancing changes is a bit too much.
U say celts are fine as they are... anyone would tell you celts are a top 3 late game civ, and a very good early and mid game civ as well. Dont believe me? In arabia 1v1 invitational celts was won 21 times and lost 9 leaving them with a 70% win rate. This is absolutely ridiculous to say they are a well balanced civ.
Tracking gives LOS, not speed. Why do skirms need to move slower? They are practically only used sometimes in 1v1 and never in tg.
"Scorps to get +1 attack or have Ballistics affect them and a greater bonus dmg vs Siege" Why?
How would u nerf vikings early game and why would u want to do that?
Why would u buff persians? they are already well respected. Same with chinese...
Just cause fire galleys had a use does not mean it is balanced. Cant understand anyone that would want to revert to AOC water where there is most of the time only 1 unit. Its supposed to be a strategy game.
I dont think scouts are "good enough" against monks. If this is arena and 5 monks fight 5 scouts it doesnt always end well for the scouts (especially aztec monks).
Well, there's two things to being harder to convert, one is a higher conversion resistance (which means a lower chance of being converted with each attempt), the other is having higher min/max times (the minimum and maximum amount of attempts needed from a monk to convert a unit). If you want to make sure that scouts vs. monks always works out, you'd have to especially increase the min times to avoid an unlikely, but possible, early conversion.
However, I'm pretty sure that's not something that can be changed for a single unit, at least I have found nothing in the genie editor that seems related to this for individual units. You could reduce the overall randomness of monks, that's something Carlos Ferdinand has done in his patch iirc.
Scouts doesnt have to always work since small changes are the best changes. Carlos also increased the avg conversion time from 8 to 9s which i think will be sufficient to solve this problem.
It's ok, people get heated when talking about changing a game that we all love (even for a small mod). I respect you for admitting they you got heated (we all do sometimes).
"I'd at least make Celts infantry move 12% faster and lumberjack work 12% faster too." This is perfectly viable, and it is just matter of preference as to how celts should be nerfed. I disagree tho when u say they have many weaknesses. If your top 5 arabia and top 5 late game, its hard to say they are where they should be (sure not the best pocket in tg, but cmon could be a lot worse).
"why do you think M@A play is common with celts in the base game?" I never said it was common (although it is not rare). I think you may have got caught up on a small detail here. I have proposed a general infantry 5% speed buff as well as other infantry buffs. With a 5% speed nerf on celt infantry, there swordsman infantry is still as fast as before (and so are their woads). There spears are still faster than any other civ in feudal age, and remember i proposed the archer attack bonus vs spears should go to +2 from +3, so that about evens it up (kinda). Really celt infantry speed has hardly changed.
"Celts and Britons should get the spotlight" I disagree. Celts and britons have always been well respected and in the upper tier of civs. Celts are great late game and britons very good on arabia (although not top 3 ofc). Britons gotten away w little changes bc i feel their tg and late game falls off. Celts on the other hand are too well rounded. Think about the other civs that need more of a spotlight ex. saracens turks teutons ect....
I wont hit u on the persians cavalry change (cavalry +2 atk vs archers). It honesty is conceptually a nice thing and u can see the persians having this kind of bonus, but that being said, balance is the most important, and this kind of bonus wont help balance.
MoMR is a very unusual tourney w very unusual settings. 99% gameplay starts in dark age, so that is where things must start balance wise. Fire galleys are well known for being better in a castle age start, but balance in AOC is so broken on water we should talk about balance starting from standard settings in AOAK.
I disagree w reducing arrowslits to 2/3/4 and availible in imp. I believe that the guard tower in AOC is a bit neglegted, so a +1 or +2 availible buff should be availible. Keep is also neglected, but that same +1 +2 buff should help keeps out. This is still nothing compared to +2/4/6 which is ridiculous. Also i proposed a mangonel tower armour.
"hey will win in smaller numbers but lose in bigger due to critical mass." i agree, but dont think balance in AOAK water is that far off. Should work with what we got and not remove 2 ships and introduce another. None of us want to start from scratch. I myself find the fire galley, galley, demo triangle to be quite entertaining.
On the question of arsons, its only +2 attack vs buildings which have over a thousand hp. I dont see what is wrong w this technology although can agree it should be removed for a few select civs.
I disagree w scouts being a soft counter. They are the fast units w conversion resistance and anti monk damage. Archers work fine except when the mangonels come in. Sure u could say that monks and siege is supposed to be hard to stop, but i believe it is better balance wise for the scouts to play a more prominent role. Once the conversion train gets rolling it is hard to stop, even with scouts. What i propose w the -5 food cost of scouts and a sec longer conversion time on monks are very small changes keep in mind.
I agree ethiopians should get a small nerf on their resource bonus, but remember Ethiopians dont get redemption on arena (which is a big deal). A redemtion civ (about half the civs) should not fear an ethiopian siege monk pike push.
The difference between 10 and 12% is small (and i like even numbers lol). The celts being decent as a pocket civ is part of why they are too well rounded and strong. In castle remember they still have that wood bonus working for them and very good mangonels to deal with archers (and siege pushes) and faster pikes for knights.
Sure teutons not that bad in 1v1, but i believe "not that bad" is about the teutons in every situation (perhaps a little above avg as a pocket but below avg on water). I wouldnt put the farm bonus ahead of the celt, persian, aztec, mayan, or malians eco bonuses. Turks not having trash is a big liability in 1v1, and arent that strong late game (although they have a good early/fast imp). Nothing to say about there feudal or castle either. Saracens same. I dont think they are that far off or need crazy changes to get them to avg overall (balanced), but a little reduction on the stable cost or archery cost for either civ, or a buff on the teutonic knight would just give them a little bump, while other civs may need a little nerf. If changes are kept small, then on some maps we may talk about saracens or turks or any civ the way we talk about huns or mayans on arabia without running the risk of loosing what made the mayans and huns fun to play with in the first place.
We were talking about African kingdoms or about aoc? i got lost :roll:
You guys remindme to philipe lebon, every single topic about balance he was spamming with thousands of changes, aoc or aok are not that broken, AK adds more civs incluiding the ones from FE, the new civs and UU counter really good the old OP civs and units such as mangudai and mameluke.
I am afraid we are never going to test in a serious way all the strenght of the new civs and changes, you just saw tatoh doing nasty towers over and over, abusing of something clearly not well tested by the designers, he was the best player around and he could do more things and used more strats.
So far only feudal fires and arrowlist need to be nerfed, as i pointed feudal fires should not exist because we have now the option to go land instead of grush, i also would change castle ew if you upgrade them full they are as strong as early elite ew from AOC but with one more piercing armor a sling to aztk could be more powerful than slinging a knight civ.