AOE-HD Wololo Kingdoms Balance Dicussion

SpainAtor

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#1


Major Priority


Malay
  • Unit: Elite Karambit


    • TaToH: I feel like karambit are a bit overpowered in 1vs1, they do really good vs trash units as their prize is low and creation speed is too fast. They are good for raiding, and good against almost any melee unit used in 1vs1. You can send them to die against low army and still do almost always good trades for you as you can have 50 in 1 min again.

      Hyuna: Their main problem actually isn't the 0.5 pop. It's their freaking creation speed and cost. Imo it should cost 30f 15g take as long as samurai to make and have -1 attack. Samurai still two hit them and they can't push into mass hc/slinger/catas/boyar/ETK/Ejag/EBerserk but those are UUs which not many have. Making them one pop takes their uniqueness away and Shotels would basically be the better choice.

      Karambit spam is worse than Goth spam of champions yet I consider Goth spam balanced because champions without platemail have such an easy counter and they don't move as fast. If they take up 0.5 pop they should be as good as 0.5 pop. Right now they are as good as 0.75 pop. Fun fact: they take up 1 garrison pop spot.

    • TaToH: I'd lower their creation speed to at least double ( 5s to 10s ) and lower their attack from 8 to 7. Imo change their armor is useless because they die quite fast anyways.

      Nicov: There are 2 simple changes I can imagine atm: make them cost 1 pop again so you don't spam 120 karambit in 2 minutes anymore. Also increase the creation time.

      Rorarimbo: Also Karambit warriors I would say slower production time and full 1 pop. The half population space have never made sence to me not only it makes them OP but we have galleons and War wagons for 1 pop space not more why go away from 1 pop per unit rule.

Malians
  • Bonus: Wood bonus ( 15% )

    • TaToH: I think malians have enough bonus, and they save so much wood from this, making almost useless teutons, huns, japanese "wood" bonus.

      Hyuna: Fine bonus TG. Could be OP 1v1 I don't think it needs nerf. Everyone tells me lategame Malian is awkward with no real pushing power. I think it's fine. They got enough nerfs recently.


    • TaToH: I'd lower it to 10% or even 5%.

      Nicov: Wood bonus reduced to 10%, as tatoh says.

  • Bonus: +1 armor / age

    • TaToH: I think it is too much, makes almost impossible to deal vs malians in post imperial ( 1vs1 games ) just because their pikeman are impossible to kill. They have so much bonus that make them hold for it as well.

    • TaToH: I''d make it +1 feudal and castle, and remove imperial age one, so at least you have +6 as max.

Italians
  • Unit: Condottiero


    • TaToH: I think the idea behind Condo was a unit enable to counter gundpowder. Now is used mainly to kill in early imp because their stats are just too good for that. Also, they are created fast and they are affected by civ bonus so some civs are extremely good with this units ( Malians, Goths, Aztecs, Burmese, Japanese... )

      Soufire: they are basically champs and perform much better than its original purpose

    • TaToH: I'd say their stats are good for late game. So i'd not lower stats because that will make them a bit underpower for their objetive. Make actual condo as 'Elite Condo', and add a new unit Condo with worse stats, so at least you need to invest some resources into make them Elite before stomp someone really fast.

      Nicov: I would make them not affected by team bonus anymore. Because the malians' 1+7 pierce armor or the 10+7 (burmese) and 10+8 (aztecs) attack is very OP for such a cheap unit. Also, as tatoh said, I would add a condottiero upgrade (no clue about price). Decrease movement rate or creation time. There are several ways to nerf this unit.

      Rorarimbo: I wouldnt add elite upgrade may be its limited thinking but this would mean having the normal ones in castle age too. I would increase their production time so their spam is slower and would add technology in the castle for the allies "mercanaries" so they should have a catle and research a tech to have them available.

Burmese
  • Unit: Arambai


    Nicov: This unit is completely ridiculous (even more than conqs in aoc)

    Hyuna: This unit is a ridiculous, the castle age variant is not that OP (but still a problem) but the Imperial one hits like a truck and after the UT gets a bonus vs buildings. They are fine in small numbers but when massed they're just unstoppable. The advantage over Conqs is they cost wood not food and they have half the accuracy of a Conq and less pierce armour overall. But once you have a mass of Arambai + 1 armour + Bloodlines + Husbandry you can just slaughter xbows/elite skirms/Pikes and even Knights. Of course it has UU which it gets slaughtered by notably the Camel Archer but having UU counter UU and having no other viable answer of a unit means the unit needs a nerf. At least with conqs. Mass halb/Skirm with rams work. Arambai seem to still demolish that and they get a better Spanish lategame combo with their battle elephants and also get siege engineer meaning Arambai and 9 range Onager and may be some hussar/elephant make them pretty unstoppable.

    Nicov: I would highly decrease their attack (something like: arambai 14 attack, elite 18) and also decrease the movement rate so they are no longer so lame vs kt or camel. But even with these changes they'd be still OP vs melee.

  • Bonus: 50% Monastery Tech Prize

    Maximus: Most of already mentioned plus I think Burmese bonus of 50% cheaper monastery is kinda OP. IT is very situational but you can save up to thousands of gold. Generally I think monks were not really improved upon in WK. Converting still too random/too quick. Most of new civs have very strong monastery research trees.

    Hyuna: 50% monk tech is pretty ridiculous, probably the biggest gold save of any bonus.

    Huyna: I feel like it should cost 50% less only in imperial and somewhere 30%+ in castle age

Incas
  • Unit: Slingers


    • Nicov:They need to get nerfed as well. Not only they smash infantry like flies, but they also win vs xbows

      Hyuna: Of all unit that needs a nerf. It's not this guy. After Thumb Ring for both and Ballstics xbow actually win. Mass xbow also can focus fire significantly better and Slingers suck worse vs Cavalry and Skirms than xbows do and xbows already can't deal with ESkirms on equal terms. Them dropping infantry like flies is fine imo the Incas need this. Fast units that close the gap can abuse their min range if they aren't massed enough and they cost food (albeit very little) it's really only great vs infantry and maybe in imp okay vs a few archers but archers still get a way better trade because thumb ring does not make Slingers fire faster. If you really want a nerf. Only give them +8 infantry bonus castle age and +10 imperial otherwise this unit is fine tbh.

    • Nicov: I would start by decreasing their range or making them expensiver.

Berbers
  • Unit: Camel Archer


    Soufire: this unit is 10 times better than mangudais, cheaper and stronger vs ranged units, they patrol better and can pack in smaller spaces, i have noticed that the units that are supposed to counter it doesn't work, they outperforms mamelukes and magudais and can only be stopped with SO.

    Melkor: Camel archer is just too strong overall.

    Melkor: Decrease its hitpoints a bit. (maybe -5 / -10 HP )


Ethiopians
  • Bonus: Free halb

    • Nicov:This civ needs a big nerf because most of the civs are useless vs this one. Specially cavarly ones.

      TaToH: Free halb imo is too powerful, makes almost no viable to go knights vs them, and they have insta combo halb + arb on imp what is a powerful one. Also the firerate maybe is too much + thumb ring.

    • Nicov: I would decrease fire rate to 10% and remove free halb upgrade.

      TaToH: I'd keep free pikeman and i'd remove free halb. About fire rate, maybe give them free thumb ring instead of fire rate, or lower fire rate to 10%.

  • Bonus: +100f +100g reaching new Age

    • wakko: I think Ethiopians +100 food and gold is too much for early feudal age.

    • wakko: It could be reduced to 50/50 in feudal and then 100/100 in castle, 150/150 in imperial or smth like that to make it more balanced.

General Units
  • Units: Eagle Warrior ( Castle Age )


    • Nicov: They are pretty much like elite eagle warriors on imp. Fast creation time, fast movement rate. And if they are massed enough they win vs knights with ease. But I'm not sure how to nerf them though

      Soufire: They are basically early imp eew

    • Nicov: The only thing I imagine is increasing the upgrade price which is really low for such a strong unit.

  • Units: Battle Elephants


    • Nicov:The elite upgrade costs 800 food 500 gold. Cheaper than champion and paladin upgrade. And this unit simply kills anything (won't even mention the ones with 3+6 pierce armor :lol: ). As we have seen in WK 4v4 tournament, paladins are not used anymore thanks to this extremely OP unit.

      buddy: Also I do feel the battle elephants may need some more looking into as some civs will struggle a lot vs them. They move slow which is their main weakness, and they require a lot of food. It has not really been a huge problem when I learned to play vs them, but I have the feeling it may be too unstoppable at top level play when someone is pushing with a horde of those elephants. You only need a small number of those elephants and some counter to halbs behind to make a pretty strong push vs a maya player for example.

      Influenza: From what little I played I think those battle elephants need a massive nerf, especially the burmese ones.

      Rorarimbo: I think in SP they are quite managable but in TGs they are way too strong indeed.

      Soufire: their upgrade is so cheap and currently make more trampling damage that they should

      Melkor: Maybe give battle elephants 0 base armour for hack and pierce, and then increase their hitpoints.
      That would make war elephants unique in that they have armour. In addition it would create a viable way to counter them with archers, yet still discourage melee from fighting them. The only other way to make them balanced, is to make them slower, BUT WHO WANTS THAT.
      That would make each civs unique bonus for their eles more interesting, with burmese getting a mini war elephant, and the other civs getting something new to aoc.
      Ideally 40 arbalests should be able to kill one elite battle elephant in 2 volleys. Whereas vs the burmese ones it was more like 7-8 volleys

    • :



Minor priority


Turks
  • Bonus: Gold bonus ( 20% )

    • Nicov: need to be adjusted in order to be more competitive. The 15% looks like a joke compared to most of the new civs' eco bonuses.

    • Nicov: 30% faster gold mining (same as Koreans' stone one)

Chinese
  • Bonus: Cheaper Tech bonus

    • Nicov: need to be adjusted in order to be more competitive.

    • Nicov: Cheaper technologies price in order to make them save more resources.
 

ArgentinaNicov

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#2
Units
Karambit:

There are 2 simple changes I can imagine atm: make them cost 1 pop again so you don't spam 120 karambit in 2 minutes anymore. Also increase the creation time.

Arambai:

This unit is completely ridiculous (even more than conqs in aoc). I would highly decrease their attack (something like: arambai 14 attack, elite 18) and also decrease the movement rate so they are no longer so lame vs kt or camel. But even with these changes they'd be still OP vs melee.

Condottiero:

I would make them not affected by team bonus anymore. Because the malians' 1+7 pierce armor or the 10+7 (burmese) and 10+8 (aztecs) attack is very OP for such a cheap unit. Also, as tatoh said, I would add a condottiero upgrade (no clue about price). Decrease movement rate or creation time. There are several ways to nerf this unit.

Battle elephants:

The elite upgrade costs 800 food 500 gold. Cheaper than champion and paladin upgrade. And this unit simply kills anything (won't even mention the ones with 3+6 pierce armor :lol: ). As we have seen in WK 4v4 tournament, paladins are not used anymore thanks to this extremely OP unit. Another nerf I find necessary is removing the adjacent damage of both normal and elite elephants. Leave it only to persian elite ones.

Slingers:

They need to get nerfed as well. Not only they smash infantry like flies, but they also win vs xbows :lol: I would start by decreasing their range or making them expensiver.

Eagle warrior:

They are pretty much like elite eagle warriors on imp. Fast creation time, fast movement rate. And if they are massed enough they win vs knights with ease. But I'm not sure how to nerf them though. The only thing I imagine is increasing the upgrade price which is really low for such a strong unit.

Civs in general:
Malians:
Wood bonus reduced to 10%, as tatoh says.

Ethiopians:
This civ needs a big nerf because most of the civs are useless vs this one. Specially cavarly ones. I would decrease fire rate to 10% and remove free halb upgrade.

Also most of the aoc civs need to be adjusted in order to be more competitive. Otherwise they won't ever be picked. Two very simple examples:

Turk:
30% faster gold mining (same as Koreans' stone one). The 15% looks like a joke compared to most of the new civs' eco bonuses.

Chinese:
Cheaper technologies price in order to make them save more resources.

Etc. These last ones are not a priority though. I just want to annoy :lol:

--------------

I think there are some more units or civs that are asking for a change but I think these are the most important ones.
 
Jul 2, 2013
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#3
Great initiative.

One way to nerf Eagle Warriors would be to buff Long Swordsmen (the "official" counter to Eagles, with their bonus against them).
I thought Cysion was for an improvement for this unit, to make it useful in Castle Age (cf: viewtopic.php?f=638&t=93425).
+5 HP isn't much in that regard.
 

Norwaybuddy__1

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#4
Chinese:
Cheaper technologies price in order to make them save more resources.
In free boom maps like arena the chinese boom is pretty strong, and reducing cost of stuff could make them unbalanced the other way.

I know its incas bonus for now, but I feel chinese would be better balanced if you gave them a free llama in the same way inca have now would be a good addition to the civ, making their start more consistent and a tiny bit extra food which china really needs. Maybe some llama with 150 food would be perfect? Right now inca only get the free llama if they start with a scout as well so wouldnt change nomad games and such either.

Beyond this I agree with this post but I'm surprised none of you are even mentioning the indian civ lol.

Also I do feel the battle elephants may need some more looking into as some civs will struggle a lot vs them. They move slow which is their main weakness, and they require a lot of food. It has not really been a huge problem when I learned to play vs them, but I have the feeling it may be too unstoppable at top level play when someone is pushing with a horde of those elephants.

You only need a small number of those elephants and some counter to halbs behind to make a pretty strong push vs a maya player for example.

EDIT: and then maybe change the inca bonus for faster building farms into something thats actually useful. Right now it can be bad to have inca ally because you cant seed farms straight after clicking horse collar but have to wait a little to get the better farms.
 

ItalyLaskerf

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#5
Not sure about slingers/castle age eagles being that strong, didn't see them being so dominant in all the multiple hd tournaments we had this year.
 

Ireland_Melkor

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#6
Indians:

They are still too strong, with their eco bonuses and overpowered camel.

Solution:
Get rid of bloodlines for indians.
In which case they might need arbalest back, otherwise they would have problems in early imperial vs infantry.

Berbers:

Camel archer is just too strong overall.

Solution:

Decrease its hitpoints a bit. (maybe -5/-10 HP)



Persians:

They are completely inferior to indians as the game is currently. Maybe they should get a unique tech that actually helps them, as opposed to one which is completely and totally useless. A civ with 2 unique techs that are essentially worthless is pretty annoying. War elephants are useless unless playing with longbowmen or korean SO to counter monks as a combo (or playing vs opponents who cant micro monks at all).
Giving persians a unique tech to improve a useless unit, and another unique tech to make it harder to kill their castles; which are there to be able to make a useless unit, is pretty lame.
 

SlovakiaIvIaximus

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#7
Most of already mentioned plus I think Burmese bonus of 50% cheaper monastery is kinda OP. IT is very situational but you can save up to thousands of gold. Generally I think monks were not really improved upon in WK. Converting still too random/too quick. Most of new civs have very strong monastery research trees.
 

SwedenSpaden

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#8

United StatesInfluenza

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#9
From what little I played I think those battle elephants need a massive nerf, especially the burmese ones.

Also my ideas for condos is:
1. Italian player must be imp for the allies to access it.
2. Some upgrade for other civs to get elite(normal) condos as mentioned, maybe 800f600g but really no exact idea about price. they get some weaker condo without upgrade
 

BulgariaRorarimbo

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#10
Im not Nicov or Tatoh but since its open discussion here is what I think.

Condotierro. I wouldnt add elite upgrade may be its limited thinking but this would mean having the normal ones in castle age too. I would increase their production time so their spam is slower and would add technology in the castle for the allies "mercanaries" so they should have a catle and research a tech to have them available.

About Arambai I cant say much as my lvl is too low for ppl to be able to micro them well what is making them OP.
Battle elephants. I think in SP they are quite managable but in TGs they are way too strong indeed.
About slingers I cant say as I have very rarely seen them used and Im surprised they aree listed as too strong but here is smth i learn. For the American civs in general my feel is eagles are strong as they alweays were cant say they need nerf or not but I would somehow oppose to that as general idea.

Edit: Also Karambit warriors I would say slower production time and full 1 pop. The half population space have never made sence to me not only it makes them OP but we have galleons and War wagons for 1 pop space not more why go away from 1 pop per unit rule.
 

ChilewAkKo

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#11
A couple thoughts:

I think Ethiopians +100 food and gold is too much for early feudal age. It could be reduced to 50/50 in feudal and then 100/100 in castle, 150/150 in imperial or smth like that to make it more balanced.

Malay have cheaper battle elephants but they even lack +2 armor. Isnt it weird? Maybe make them less cheap and give them back at least +2 armor?
 
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#12
Is it possible to fix the slinger bug, so they can counter condos? Atm condos absorb all bonus dmg from slingers and own slingers completly.
 

ItalyLaskerf

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#13
Maybe we should also post recs showing exactly how powerful are the mentioned units? Like a couple of proper games (no obvious mistakes from the players) where arambai/eagle/elephant was really unstoppable? Because even if I trust a 2k when he talks about game balance, tangible proofs could help in the debate :smile:

@Spaden: I saw the full eagles strat being stopped (by crossbows) most of the time it was attempted, but I didn't really see them much (like 6/7 games at most), maybe I was just unlucky
 

GermanyAkeNo

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#14
Not sure about slingers/castle age eagles being that strong, didn't see them being so dominant in all the multiple hd tournaments we had this year.
I have no comment about slingers, but I am yet to see a player lose a game where he goes for full castle age eagles (in 1v1).
Check out the game Viper (britons) vs DauT (Aztecs) from yesterday then.


Also, to the Turks mentioned in the OP, they are already increased to 20% from 15% in the expansions
 
Jul 2, 2013
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#15
Laskerf is right, we need at least one rec to illustrate each balance issue of WK.

Remember our best bet to resolve these is to get the original RotR modified.
 

SpainMembTV

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#16
Not sure about slingers/castle age eagles being that strong, didn't see them being so dominant in all the multiple hd tournaments we had this year.
I have no comment about slingers, but I am yet to see a player lose a game where he goes for full castle age eagles (in 1v1).
Check out the game Viper (britons) vs DauT (Aztecs) from yesterday then.


Also, to the Turks mentioned in the OP, they are already increased to 20% from 15% in the expansions
not only that game, he played 3 meso civiliz with eagles in all them, he lost all games.

Also i would remove the onager upgrade cutting the trees, it makes in maps like arena or bf a big diference and the Siege Onagers are completly not needed.
 

Aland Islandskw1k000000

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#18
I would love to see next 1v1 tournament with same format as WSVG 2015.

- Varied map pool instead of just 1 map (Arabia)

- All games Hidden Civ free pick. Only this way you can see the new tier and objectively judge whether WK really has added variety or the top 3 AOC have just been replaced with top 3 WK.

----

PS: in the recent WK 4v4 all 8 players making 1 single unit (Condottiero) was pretty absurd. Even in AOC you might see same 4 civs but at least unit variety is there.
 
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#19
give teutons a husbandry or gold faster, we need teutons appear in the future
Teutons are indeed seldom seen even on WK. We should do something about it.


I would love to see next 1v1 tournament with same format as WSVG 2015.

- Varied map pool instead of just 1 map (Arabia)

- All games Hidden Civ free pick. Only this way you can see the new tier and objectively judge whether WK really has added variety or the top 3 AOC have just been replaced with top 3 WK.

----

PS: in the recent 4v4 all 8 players making 1 single unit was pretty absurd. Even in AOC you might see same 4 civs but at least unit variety is there.
When was the last time you've seen a Tarkan in an expert hun war?
 

Netherlandsnimanoe

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#21
Not really a balance issue but what about replacing the +10 pop for Goths with +5% pop space?
For high pop games the bonus hardly matters, but for low pop games it's quite OP.
 
Jul 2, 2013
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#22
They are good and viable - I discussed Tarkans with Spring some months ago -, but you don't see them every day :wink:
(or I've been unlucky for the past four years)
 

Brazildogao

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#23
No offense but opening a topic where everyone can talk about balance is just useless.
Make a group of experts/people who have a lot of knowledge and make a sub-forum for it that will be much more useful.

You already have reddit with 10 topics per day with this same subject. :P
 

GermanyJineapple

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#24
As mentioned before, the WK installer does offer the possibility of a custom data mod. I would like to make only few and (as much as possible) commonly agreed upon changes though, or the whole thing will run into the usual issues with balance patches. I can imagine something to fix condos for example, but not sweeping changes in an attempt to rebalance civs (which would be a neverending story)
 

ChilewAkKo

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#25
give teutons a husbandry or gold faster, we need teutons appear in the future
Teutons are indeed seldom seen even on WK. We should do something about it.
Maybe lightcav upgrade or bracer. One of those would improve them for trash wars, because lacking both makes them so weak in late imp.
 

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