AOE-HD Why Scorpions > Mangonels in Huns war

United StatesTocaraca

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#1
So this one is a bit of a clickbait title, because it's always situational.

In HD/WololoKingdoms I personally think that, against a large group of Cavalry Archers, it's better to make Scorpions than to make Mangonels.

Think about it. In the expansions, Scorpions have 7 pierce armor compared to the 6 pierce armor of a Mangonel, and against Cavalry Archers it makes a lot of difference, since scorps take only 1 damage per hit whereas mangos take 2 damage. Mangos are also much easier to micro around than scorps are, especially against a fast unit like a cav archer. What do you guys think?
 

MexicoSouFire

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#4
Hummm scorp and mangonels are the best combo vs a fast moving unit such as Ca or vs a guy with good micro using crossbow, the problem is that they move so slow to defend or to push and can be easily destroyed by few kths or insane micro.

Stop thinking in one single unit and mix them, then you will learn he basics of the army composition.
 

United StatesTocaraca

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#5
Hummm scorp and mangonels are the best combo vs a fast moving unit such as Ca or vs a guy with good micro using crossbow, the problem is that they move so slow to defend or to push and can be easily destroyed by few kths or insane micro.

Stop thinking in one single unit and mix them, then you will learn he basics of the army composition.
Uhhh when did I say that you could just mass Scorpions?

I implied that Scorpions are a better choice than Mangonels in castle age against Cavalry Archers. Not that you just mass scorps...

Read the thread before you comment plz. I'm not a 12xx
 

Swedenfuthark1

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Dec 25, 2015
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#6
Why Scorpions > Mangonels in Huns war
This is a claim with full certainity.

I personally think that it's better to make Scorpions than to make Mangonels.
This is the opinion of a 15xx player, who also happens to be a pathetic liar and a delusional lunatic.

So which one is it?


I've read your previous posts and they also are full of anecdotal evidence and logical flaws. Why are you continuously trying to push an agenda on counter units and balance changes altough the expert opinion rejects its functionality both theoretically and practically?
 

United StatesTocaraca

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#7

Unknownspen27

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Yes because scorpions clearly do more damage to a group of cavalry archers than a mangonel. Why make a mangonel or two to push back cav archers when you can make two scorpions? I’d run away if I saw scorpions - it’s not like I’d run straight in and kill it 11

Also I’m curious to know...why the strange fetish for scorpions? Anything you want to get out in the open? We are here for you.

[modwarn2=robo]Please be respectful to other users[/modwarn2]
 
Mar 26, 2015
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#9
Why Scorpions > Mangonels in Huns war
This is a claim with full certainity.

I personally think that it's better to make Scorpions than to make Mangonels.
This is the opinion of a 15xx player, who also happens to be a pathetic liar and a delusional lunatic.

So which one is it?


I've read your previous posts and they also are full of anecdotal evidence and logical flaws. Why are you continuously trying to push an agenda on counter units and balance changes altough the expert opinion rejects its functionality both theoretically and practically?
Please, shut up.
 

United StatesTocaraca

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#10
Yes because scorpions clearly do more damage to a group of cavalry archers than a mangonel /sarcasm
Scorpions attack ~67% faster than Mangonels. This means that the 12 damage of a Scorpion can be seen more like 20 damage compared to the 40 of a Mangonel. That’s half the damage. However, scorps cost about half the resources of mangos. Therefore they basically cancel out, and, 2 scorps = 1 mango in both cost and overall damage output.

And this is just raw theoretical DPS by looking at some numbers. Scorpion projectiles also not only move faster than Mangonel projectiles (~71% faster to be approximate) but also damage a full line, rather than just a moderately-sized area like mangos. This makes scorp projectiles much harder to dodge than mango projectiles.

Scorpions also have a ~17% faster movement speed than Mangonels.

I already mentioned in the topic the biggest factor IMO which is that CA deal twice the damage to mangos than to scorps (2 instead of 1), so Mangonels die in only 25 shots whereas Scorpions take 40; since you can have 2 scorps for about the same price as 1 mango, it’s more like 80 shots for the scorps.

Oh, and Scorpions have less minimum range than Mangonels.

The downsides are that 2 Scorpions take 60 seconds to create whereas 1 Mangonel only takes 46 seconds, scorps lose hard to other Mangonels in combat, and Mangonels deal much more damage to buildings. This is why I said it’s always situational.

If you were to actually think about it, you could easily see that Mangonels are much easier to outmicro with CA than Scorpions are. Not only does my argument make sense theoretically, but my experiences in game (albeit 15-16xx noob games) also prove the same point; 2 mangos get fairly easily picked off by a mass of CA whereas 4 scorps have a lot more potential.

If there are other factors I missed please point them out, I’m trying my best to be less stubborn and less toxic in this community. I haven’t posted in a while and quite frankly arguing with pros continuously makes a fool of myself and I get caught up in my own opinions.
 

United StatesTocaraca

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#12
Either he quoted the wrong comment and was planning to reply to me, or he thinks you’re being a **** for no reason (which you were). Nevertheless sorry for my clickbait title. Gotta get some practice for when I go and make 100000 subs and need to get that SWEET YOUTUBE AD REVENUE $$$$$ Kappa
 

BelarusOLADUSHEK

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#13
Actually I think it's a good idea. After I thought about it. At least scorps are defenetely underestimated. Also in goths war they can make the difference.

Keep you work going, i always read your posts. Don't pay attention on trollers who not analysing the game.
 

United StatesTocaraca

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#14
Actually I think it's a good idea. After I thought about it. At least scorps are defenetely underestimated. Also in goths war they can make the difference.

Keep you work going, i always read your posts. Don't pay attention on trollers who not analysing the game.
Thanks!

About the Goths war thing, I really like the idea of massing Heavy Scorpions vs Goths, but maybe not in Arabia since movement speed is a very big factor in open maps. Maybe on Arena you can mass hscorps like that. Especially since Goths and some other cubs don’t have Siege Engineers or Siege Onager so they’re left with a regular boring Onager to try and counter hscorps.
 
Mar 26, 2015
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#15
Either he quoted the wrong comment and was planning to reply to me, or he thinks you’re being a **** for no reason (which you were). Nevertheless sorry for my clickbait title. Gotta get some practice for when I go and make 100000 subs and need to get that SWEET YOUTUBE AD REVENUE $$$$$ Kappa
No, it was not for you my frrriend. It was for futhark1.
 

Brazilandreskbr

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#16
Even though Scorpions have more accuracy, you can still micro not to get hit by them(the same way you do against Ragned units without Ballistics). It's harder to do it against Mangonel, because you only need 1 or 2 effective shots to make a big damage. Take in mind he "dancing" micro gets less results the bigger the ammount of Mangos(with attack ground, you can shot multiple places simultaneously).
 

United StatesTocaraca

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#17
Even though Scorpions have more accuracy, you can still micro not to get hit by them(the same way you do against Ragned units without Ballistics). It's harder to do it against Mangonel, because you only need 1 or 2 effective shots to make a big damage. Take in mind he "dancing" micro gets less results the bigger the ammount of Mangos(with attack ground, you can shot multiple places simultaneously).
True. So, are you saying, it would be better to have 3 Mangonels than 6 Scorpions (since multiple mangos are already very hard to micro around)?
 

NetherlandsHenkdesupernerd

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#18
the mix of scorp+mangonel (scorp with the dodgable traget fire, and mangos with the attackground) almost guarantees atleast some hits
 

Mexicomalamadre

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#20
Man I saw you lose like 10 times against Jomenal in his stream. You made scorps, they died, you died. But you died because you are a worse player with bad build orders. I suggest you try to improve, get a good level, make your scorpions, win games by making scorpions, post the games.

You can just write and write all day, putting numbers, stats and everything. But unless you actually succeed with this unit composition in real games with decent enemies, every will mock you.

In any case, mangonels arent even a good choice in huns war, so scorps may actually be useful.
 

United StatesTocaraca

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#21
Man I saw you lose like 10 times against Jomenal in his stream. You made scorps, they died, you died. But you died because you are a worse player with bad build orders. ...In any case, mangonels arent even a good choice in huns war, so scorps may actually be useful.
I am indeed a worse player than Jomenall. However I recall a few of my Huns wars games with him where Scorpions successfully pushed away his cav archers, better than Mangonels would have (Jomenall's archer micro is too good for my mangos 11).
 

ArgentinaImRiver

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#22
Ok, I love scorpions myself, and use them every time I see fit. In hun war I'll do two or three scorpions if I feel like defending vs Crossbow, however I'll hardly do that vs CA. CA has a lot of HP and can tank one hit of a mango/scorpion before hitting and 1- or 2-shot killing. I prefer that it is a shot of mangonel.
Also, some things I'd like to point out:

1) if you have a scorpion microing vs CA, it will probably die fast and you won't have time to repair. With a mangonel you can take much more damage and so if you end up winning a fight (or if he leaves cuz don't wanna take the risk) you can repair it, that cost a lot less than making a new one. So in the long run scorpion is worse than mangonel.

2) CA+Mangonel vs CA+Scorpions. You'll just have a really hard time winning that batlle with scorpions. I'd say even impossible.

3)A mangonel I can use after defending to go and push him, with scorpions that's just not possible. Scorpion can't kill a tower and won't destroy buildings at all

4) Siege is a pain in the ass to micro and move arround the map, I prefer to micro two mangonels and not 4 scorpions

--> So as a defense unit vs some crossbow it works very good. In the long run, there's not much space for scorpions.
 

United StatesTocaraca

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#23
CA has a lot of HP and can tank one hit of a mango/scorpion before hitting and 1- or 2-shot killing. I prefer that it is a shot of mangonel.
That's intuitive, however scorps fire faster than mangos, so 2 scorps can deal just as much damage as 1 mango, maybe even more because their projectiles are way harder to dodge.

if you have a scorpion microing vs CA, it will probably die fast and you won't have time to repair. With a mangonel you can take much more damage
This is false. Scorpions take 40 shots from a Cavalry Archer, Mangonels only take 25 shots. Keep in mind I'm talking about the expansions where scorps have 7 piere armor. In AoC, scorps only had 6 pierce armor just like a mango.

CA+Mangonel vs CA+Scorpions. You'll just have a really hard time winning that batlle with scorpions. I'd say even impossible.
Valid point. I usually use Knights+Scorpions so that's why I didn't consider that issue.

A mangonel I can use after defending to go and push him, with scorpions that's just not possible. Scorpion can't kill a tower and won't destroy buildings at all
Scorpion can kill a tower if you repair it, it just takes a long time! Kappa :lol:

I think you're right about scorps being much worse than mangos when you go offensive, but not defensive.
 

Brazilandreskbr

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#24
CA has a lot of HP and can tank one hit of a mango/scorpion before hitting and 1- or 2-shot killing. I prefer that it is a shot of mangonel.
That's intuitive, however scorps fire faster than mangos, so 2 scorps can deal just as much damage as 1 mango, maybe even more because their projectiles are way harder to dodge.
Not really. Mangonels make way more damage to units close to the shot. If you have Ranged Units yourself, that does a HUGE difference when you fight the damaged CA. It also helps when you bring more Siege Weapons to stop them.
 

United StatesTocaraca

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#25
CA has a lot of HP and can tank one hit of a mango/scorpion before hitting and 1- or 2-shot killing. I prefer that it is a shot of mangonel.
That's intuitive, however scorps fire faster than mangos, so 2 scorps can deal just as much damage as 1 mango, maybe even more because their projectiles are way harder to dodge.
Not really. Mangonels make way more damage to units close to the shot. If you have Ranged Units yourself, that does a HUGE difference when you fight the damaged CA. It also helps when you bring more Siege Weapons to stop them.
True, a Mangonel might have more damage potential if it hits a tightly packed group of units, but mango shots are also more likely to miss than Scorpion shots. Sometimes mango shots don't even deal any damage, and even if a scorpion shot misses, the scorps attack faster so it's less of an issue. A missed mango shot is more punishing.

I do think, though, that if you are really behind and you want to have one last chance to maybe come back, it would be better to try and get lucky by making Mangonels and try to score a massive shot, rather than to make Scorpions which are more reliable but also don't quite have the potential to wipe out a whole army like mangos can.
 

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