We should start bugging people of the franchise to open-source the Genie engine

[demeter]

That's a myth, open-source games are not necessarily more vulnerable to attacks, instead open-source is more secure overall.

I agree that it will increase the security. I worded this badly. It makes cheating easier since you know how much of the stuff works. For example in one of the cheat threads a guy mentioned that the programmer of the cheat doesn't know how to move units with code without desync. Getting this to work would maybe be tedious reverse engineering work if there is no source code avaiable, but is probably very easy if he can just lookup how the AI moves in source code. Stuff like this gets much easier when the source code is available and is also nothing that opensource would improve even if it did improve actual security (such as bufferoverflows etc.).

By how Github is designed with Pull Requests and Reviews and with setting up Continous Integration. :-)

And you think they are not using version control at the moment?

 

[simonsanone]

I agree that it will increase the security. I worded this badly. It makes cheating easier since you know how much of the stuff works. For example in one of the cheat threads a guy mentioned that the programmer of the cheat doesn't know how to move units with code without desync. Getting this to work would maybe be tedious reverse engineering work if there is no source code avaiable, but is probably very easy if he can just lookup how the AI moves in source code. Stuff like this gets much easier when the source code is available and is also nothing that opensource would improve even if it did improve actual security (such as bufferoverflows etc.).

Well, Genie is pretty good reverse engineered already. So good, that people like the CaptureAge-Team could implement a new renderer for the game (CaptureAge), people are creating a machine learning API, created UserPatch etc. I honestly feel that there is not so much to lose with open-sourcing the engine and that it will bring more good than harm anyone involved.

And you think they are not using version control at the moment?

I think they do, but this makes it even more easy to collaborate on Github. :-)

 

[simonsanone]

With another half-broken patch and not much more money from sales (I guess) comes back the question for open-sourcing the Genie engine. =)

 

[lecracheursagacite]

All they had to f****** do was hire Scripter, thanks Cysion for bringing a profit hungry company back to this game to ruin it.
God i wished the community could sue Microsoft and Forgotten empires Studio so we would get all the aoe2 copyrights as punishment for letting this game rot for 20 years (and counting, DE is just another cashgrab, as HD).

Pirating the game might not be legal, but what they charge money for shouldn't be as well... Next "Update" that makes the game unplayable

If they would make the engine open source the communities most best coder would produce one update better than the sh**show Microsoft made over the past year. MALAY researching 166% Feudal Castle and Imperial Age

I am not sure if the other reactions are laughing at this to mock it or praise it but if they laugh to mock then they make themselves look like fools.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

@nimanoe Wait please don't tell me you were actually laughing to mock. I held you in better regard than that man.

@Tarsiz I feel like your presence here would be more positive if you spent less selecting emojis in response to posts and more time not dodging when people ask you to explain the logic behind your poorly veiled personal attacks. Or, you know, you could stop making personal attacks motivated by a vendetta that persists only because you still refuse to acknowledge an apology you received almost 6 months ago.

 

[CH_Wired_]

Are you still actively trying to convince them to open source Genie?

 

[Mouttie]

I don't remember the last major product owned by Microsoft that was open sourced.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

I don't remember the last major product owned by Microsoft that was open sourced.

Does this description really apply to something which has received as little investment as AoE2?

 

[Mouttie]

Does this description really apply to something which has received as little investment as AoE2?

Depends on how you define major, but I think aoe is the iconic game for MS.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

Depends on how you define major, but I think aoe is the iconic game for MS.

It should be but they certainly don't treat it like that.

 

[simonsanone]

Are you still actively trying to convince them to open source Genie?

Not really. I wrote it to propose it to them and in the upcoming future I will nag them again. Probably in the moment they shut down their support (entirely) or after AoE4 release.

 

[Rustyiesty]

They should hire that guy that was doing FreeAge, @Gregstein's video showed the aoe2 game engine running at 125 fps for just 86MB of RAM usage, and that 5v5s would be possible. Takes me back to running Age of Kings on a 66mhz CPU 20 years ago!

 

[CH_Wired_]

They should! I think nagging MS for the Genie engine source code is a great idea, but OpenAge is likely to be the way forward for us regardless.

 

[Gregstein]

They should hire that guy that was doing FreeAge, @Gregstein's video showed the aoe2 game engine running at 125 fps for just 86MB of RAM usage, and that 5v5s would be possible. Takes me back to running Age of Kings on a 66mhz CPU 20 years ago!

if Voobly wants to get back on business They can make Freeage happen at least before all players slowly abandon them for AoE2 DE.

 

[MuscleChamp]

I mean who really would want to work on aoe2 original legacy source code? Well I guess there is always someone who can take the pain

 

[CH_Wired_]

I mean who really would want to work on aoe2 original legacy source code? Well I guess there is always someone who can take the pain

We had volunteers from voobly/userpatch improving the game by hacking the executable and game data files, I'm sure there is people interested in working on the game (or just the engine) with the actual source code available.

 

[simonsanone]

if Voobly wants to get back on business They can make Freeage happen at least before all players slowly abandon them for AoE2 DE.

Given the fact that everything was pretty much hardcoded in FreeAge (modding made hard in long-term), besides the problem of distributing copyrighted material, I don't think that this way would have been a reliable way "back to business" (assuming you think Voobly is out of business, which I don't think they are).

FreeAge was making much progress in short time because of the design decisions and hardcoding, which would not have been a solution to the "constrainedness"/or the shortcomings of the Genie engine. It was meant to be fast progress at the expense of sophisticated modding capabilities which would just solve the P2P-issues and the performance stuff of AoE2-style games, but not really be a solution towards the modding community. So in the end to make it considerably better moddable it would need a lot of effort and time.

They should! I think nagging MS for the Genie engine source code is a great idea, but OpenAge is likely to be the way forward for us regardless.

Indeed, I also think openage would be the way forward, but I also need to say, that it will take a lot of time before it's in a playable state somehow. I'm talking about a few years. The open-sourcing of the Engine could give AoE2 the option to make some things better immediately without waiting until openage replaces Genie engine and its' games - and I'm pretty sure it will. In about 2-5 years from now on people that want to play any versions of AoE1/AoE2/SWGB will most likely play it on some version of openage and some network providing multiplayer services for it.

 

[Gregstein]

Given the fact that everything was pretty much hardcoded in FreeAge (modding made hard in long-term), besides the problem of distributing copyrighted material.

Believe it or leave it the so called compatibility patch installs a cracked version of aoe2. even if you don't own AoE2 HD on steam, you'll get an error message then you can proceed installing the cracked version. Even if you have AoE2 HD they still install a raw cracked copy. Copyrighted material no more lmao.

 

[simonsanone]

And with a new expansion announced with multiplayer lags unbearable to play with, Alt+F4 every so often and other bugs: HERE WE GO AGAIN!

 

[lecracheursagacite]

And with a new expansion announced with multiplayer lags unbearable to play with, Alt+F4 every so often and other bugs: HERE WE GO AGAIN!

You have to be joking?

 

[HongeyKong]

(1) MS is making money from the franchise
(2) MS will be making money from the franchise

Maybe try bugging them lil bit later LUL

 

[simonsanone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YG1sK4_SsU

 

[Sokar]

You can bump the thread all you want, at this point, its not gonna happen. MS has other plans and is quite successfull with it.

MS it not the company it used to be, basically despising open source (remember that famous quote vom Steve Ballmer about Linux being cancer?), but that doesn't mean they are an open source company. Their business model does not made for that. Plus MS is a huge company with different divisions, all having different goals and philisophies. Because of that, thet fact that they own Github and are open sourcing other things does mean nothing in this specific instance.

The biggest problem would be coordination: when everybody can send pull requests, someone has to check them: do they actually work? Are they up to the coding standards? Do they break something else? Linux Torvalds does very little coding these days, but mostly manages incoming code - and he is not alone, other maintainers of parts of the linux kernel to pretty much the same. I don't think the money MS is making with Age2 does allow for that.

Plus, due to the development from Forgotten Empires, Hidden Path and others, the game not the same anymore as in 1999. In the DE, there is a lot more tech invovled, and a lot of it is probably using internal technologies of MS - which I assume includes the netcode. They already said that stuff like the matchmaking is using the same tech as Age4 will. So releasing it is most likely not an option. Plus: do you really think volunteers can fix those problems fast and better and full time developers payed to do it? The complexity is probably already at levels that can't be handled by volunteer or amateur developers, when even professionals have problems with that.

There have been a few instancen of open source game development in the past, most notably the most recent Unreal Tournament - which basically failed, as most development had to be done by the core developers, with only a new game mode developed by the community.
I haven't had a look at the CnC Source Code, but from what I understand, its not the core tech (also know as "the engine") but the gameplay code running on it, which can be used to create mods, but does not allow altering the core tech, like rendering, netcode, memory management, etc. Its kinda like id software releasing the gameplay code for some of their games, and releasing the full engine code years after. But even then, they basically let it out in the wild and not caring much for it afterswards. It was not a joint development, but the community was on its own.

 

[simonsanone]

do you really think volunteers can fix those problems fast and better and full time developers payed to do it?

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't propose it. UP and WK/WK:DE showed it - it's the more stable solution.

The complexity is probably already at levels that can't be handled by volunteer or amateur developers, when even professionals have problems with that.

I don't think so. I think AoE2DE developments is underfunded and thus "underengineered". I'm assuming really less developers are working with the code in recent support days. During hot development phase there were probably more developers around though. And as said before, it was possible in a good way for years with community development teams that Microsoft could have funded and bring forward open-source development. They could have even paid someone to help developing openage, a future game engine that focusses on aoe2-like mechanics with way superior capabilities to what we have now with AoE2DE - made by, guess who? Parts of the community.

There have been a few instancen of open source game development in the past

Nah, there are many here is a small extract:
OpenRA, OpenMW, openTTD, 0 A.D., openRCT2, XL Engine and so on.
They are all named in the video I posted, which you probably haven't seen.

In the DE, there is a lot more tech invovled, and a lot of it is probably using internal technologies of MS - which I assume includes the netcode.

That is true, it would probably be enough to open-source AoC/AoK without external licensed dependencies. It would be a good start and the community could build on it. In the end, it's probably the less bugged code and therefore a better basis than fixing AoE2DE. Kappa

P.S.: Don't forget that even the spectating tool is developed by community developers and some if not many of the changes that are used to enhance DE were initially started to be implemented into UP. Besides even the reason that DE is at all existing stems from the community: FE.