Vivi banned from streaming for viewing Taiwan A's flag at Liquipedia

[Zbyszek]

Tell me that you know nothing about geopolitics without saying it! "taiwan is a country"....

Such topic isn't talking about politics but actually about history and how taiwan was established and why it got insta support and investors from those countries that wanted to show the world that the communism was the big evil, if you take a book or two about such subject you will find out why you can't call it a country or pretend it to be a free land as it has always been part of china, united states or their allies can't just declare the freedom of certain territory that belongs to another country just because they support it.

Obviously for china government those declarations are hostil and anyone supporting those ideals are doing the same, that is like if you tell the british people that the malvinas are free and they belong to argentina, people should just mind their business instead of pretending high morality or high ignorance in some cases but i guess sadly the world is just full of it.

Actually while the kuomintang (who united all of china under a more liberal governemt than the communists ever established) were fighting off the japanese in WW2 the Communists under Mao were hiding in caves preparing to overthrow the governent. They did not support their own country even when the war against Japan cost more than 20 million lives.
Now after the war they actually came to power thx to the support of the soviet union in a civil war.
They annexed tibet.
The CCP also caused the worst famine in all of human history with up to 50 million dead in peace times.
They erased all of traditional chinese culture and the cultures of minorities under their control to replace them with communism.
They fought a war against Vietnam in 1979.
they are running concentration camps in xinjiang.
They murdered more than 1 million prisoners of conscience (falun gong practitioners and Uyghurs) in the last 20 years to harvest and sell their organs.
They caused the worlds worst pandemic since since 1920 (either through lab leak or the wet markets that they promised to shut down after SARS-pandemic in 2003/04)

You stating that the CCP holds any legitimate claim to represent the chinese people doesnt show knowledge of geopolitics, or basic human rights or history from your side at least.

 

[Miss一歌丶siyuan]

Actually this is the first time I see Taiwan as an independent "nation" in NC. Do they think their home country is "Republic of Taiwan"?
We 'll become more cautious about related issues. Thanks for your concern.

 

[Huehuecoyotl22]

Actually this is the first time I see Taiwan as an independent "nation" in NC. Do they think their home country is "Republic of Taiwan"?
We 'll become more cautious about related issues. Thanks for your concern.

The first time I remember a "Taiwan" team was in the 2018 2v2 World Cup. Why there wasn't any in the past Nations Cups, I am not sure.
It's not exactly the same situation, but there have been "Hong Kong" teams before, so I would assume it's rather just because they did not have enough good players that wanted to play.

 

[Miss一歌丶siyuan]

Actually while the kuomintang (who united all of china under a more liberal governemt than the communists ever established) were fighting off the japanese in WW2 the Communists under Mao were hiding in caves preparing to overthrow the governent. They did not support their own country even when the war against Japan cost more than 20 million lives.
Now after the war they actually came to power thx to the support of the soviet union in a civil war.
They annexed tibet.
The CCP also caused the worst famine in all of human history with up to 50 million dead in peace times.
They erased all of traditional chinese culture and the cultures of minorities under their control to replace them with communism.
They fought a war against Vietnam in 1979.
they are running concentration camps in xinjiang.
They murdered more than 1 million prisoners of conscience (falun gong practitioners and Uyghurs) in the last 20 years to harvest and sell their organs.
They caused the worlds worst pandemic since since 1920 (either through lab leak or the wet markets that they promised to shut down after SARS-pandemic in 2003/04)

You stating that the CCP holds any legitimate claim to represent the chinese people doesnt show knowledge of geopolitics, or basic human rights or history from your side at least.

Such a pity that what you see is so distorted that nearly none of them is true.
I'm not going to cause a heated discussion of geopolitics or such kind of history. After all, this is AOEZONE. But pls stop propagandizing your ridiculous opinions. CCP isn't perfect, they make mistakes, but not so exaggrated like what you said.

 

[Miss一歌丶siyuan]

The first time I remember a "Taiwan" team was in the 2018 2v2 World Cup. Why there wasn't any in the past Nations Cups, I am not sure.
It's not exactly the same situation, but there have been "Hong Kong" teams before, so I would assume it's rather just because they did not have enough good players that wanted to play.

Maybe so. I have realized that being too serious about the problem just makes it worse. So just enjoy the wonderful matches.

 

[Johnny Walrus]

Taiwan is very much its own country, but if it can potentially get Chinese players in trouble (or worse, that situation might literally turn into the next Ukraine), then I think it’s fair to ask the Taiwanese players if they’re okay switching for the Chinese players safety.

Or even better, maybe if the website can display it differently for people in China, however I’m sure they use VPNs so idk if that’s possible

 

[haydn]

Hi,

It is diffcult to discuss Taiwan situation in here. There are too many political issues. Maybe somthing will change in the future. But, we still have our own freedom and democratic life currently. We appriciated and enjoy that.

Let's focus on AOE2 in AoEZone...

 

[SouFire]

Yeah there is no need to discuss about the subject any further, my previous comment was to give some context to the China´s government decisions or restrictions when it comes to defend their territory, when it comes to geopolitics there is no good or evil, there are only losers or winners.

 

[HeisenbergAoE]

Don't you find it interesting that the natural recourse for Chinese (under PRC rule) players is to ask us "westerners" to do something about the fact their own state is repressing them?

If PRC was a liberal democracy (even if it remains a single party system), we wouldn't be having this discussion and Chinese players wouldn't have been penalized for accidentally showing a flag on their stream because it's not normal to ban streamers for something like that.

Then they also hint at some sort of supremacy of the PRC position with tints of propaganda. It's completely irrelevant that both PRC and ROC claim the whole of China - that's a political argument where both, one or neither of the parties are "right" about. However, one should be allowed to stream a contrarian political position, or even not that, but simply a flag representing that contrarian political position (intentionally, agreeably or just by accident) without facing any sanctions.

What this post, started by a Chinese player, does, is tacitly admit the harshness and unfairness of the PRC government, while putting the responsibility and risk on other people: Taiwanese players, tournament organizers, the community as a whole, whoever.

I can sympathize, but accommodating a position of wiping out ROC symbolism from our community because it jeopardizes Chinese players is akin to conforming to bullying and authoritarianism.

To Chinese (PRC) players: it's your responsibility to comply with your state's laws, norms and regulations. Streamers for instance could use a real time filter which detects the ROC flag and blurs it / replaces it with something else.

 

[Vossn]

Don't you find it interesting that the natural recourse for Chinese (under PRC rule) players is to ask us "westerners" to do something about the fact their own state is repressing them?

If PRC was a liberal democracy (even if it remains a single party system), we wouldn't be having this discussion and Chinese players wouldn't have been penalized for accidentally showing a flag on their stream because it's not normal to ban streamers for something like that.

Then they also hint at some sort of supremacy of the PRC position with tints of propaganda. It's completely irrelevant that both PRC and ROC claim the whole of China - that's a political argument where both, one or neither of the parties are "right" about. However, one should be allowed to stream a contrarian political position, or even not that, but simply a flag representing that contrarian political position (intentionally, agreeably or just by accident) without facing any sanctions.

What this post, started by a Chinese player, does, is tacitly admit the harshness and unfairness of the PRC government, while putting the responsibility and risk on other people: Taiwanese players, tournament organizers, the community as a whole, whoever.

I can sympathize, but accommodating a position of wiping out ROC symbolism from our community because it jeopardizes Chinese players is akin to conforming to bullying and authoritarianism.

To Chinese (PRC) players: it's your responsibility to comply with your state's laws, norms and regulations. Streamers for instance could use a real time filter which detects the ROC flag and blurs it / replaces it with something else.

Now stream under a confederate flag, and see the results... Or a Nazi-germany flag... or a Japanese empire flag...

Or even non-political things, like Hera getting banned due to people saying dumb stuff in chat. I don't remember the specifics of the situation though.

I don't want this to go political, but your point about the oppressive nature of a state, due to their actions towards the flag of a state which, from their perspective is a rebellious province. It doesn't make any sense, since doing similar things in the liberal democratic west would yield similar results.

Considering most of us don't want Chinese players to get into problems, I wonder if something could be done. Preferably without offending the taiwanese people themselves. I'd think of 3 courses of action. The first of which is copy the Olympic thing, of letting them participate as a seperate country, under the flag of China. Which isn't ideal, but it has established precedence in the olympics, which gives it some legitimisation.

The second would be to pull a google maps, and show different data for different countries. Like how India and Pakistan both see different borders between their provinces, China would see something different from the rest of the world. I'd imagine this would be a pain to program, and not in the realm of possibilities, certainly not for as small a community as aoe2. If it could be implemented, I think this would be the best course of action.

The third one would be to not take action, and let things go on as they go. Likely resulting in the occasional further punishment of a chinese player. But one could say, that's life, we don't see the alternatives as necessarily better. I don't know whether or not the punishments would get worse due to repeat offense though.

 

[HeisenbergAoE]

Now stream under a confederate flag, and see the results... Or a Nazi-germany flag... or a Japanese empire flag...

Or even non-political things, like Hera getting banned due to people saying dumb stuff in chat. I don't remember the specifics of the situation though.

I don't want this to go political, but your point about the oppressive nature of a state, due to their actions towards the flag of a state which, from their perspective is a rebellious province. It doesn't make any sense, since doing similar things in the liberal democratic west would yield similar results.

Considering most of us don't want Chinese players to get into problems, I wonder if something could be done. Preferably without offending the taiwanese people themselves. I'd think of 3 courses of action. The first of which is copy the Olympic thing, of letting them participate as a seperate country, under the flag of China. Which isn't ideal, but it has established precedence in the olympics, which gives it some legitimisation.

The second would be to pull a google maps, and show different data for different countries. Like how India and Pakistan both see different borders between their provinces, China would see something different from the rest of the world. I'd imagine this would be a pain to program, and not in the realm of possibilities, certainly not for as small a community as aoe2. If it could be implemented, I think this would be the best course of action.

The third one would be to not take action, and let things go on as they go. Likely resulting in the occasional further punishment of a chinese player. But one could say, that's life, we don't see the alternatives as necessarily better. I don't know whether or not the punishments would get worse due to repeat offense though.

That's a totally false analogy because Vivi didn't "stream under an ROC flag", he merely had it on his stream by accident. If he were to "stream under an ROC flag" we all know that the punishment wouldn't have been a 12 hour ban but something probably more severe.

Also Twitch banning Hera in your example is a policy that Twitch took upon itself as a private entity with its own "community guidelines" (whether they're fair or not and I have criticism regarding that as well, but that's beside the point).

If I were to have a Twitch stream or a Youtube stream or whatever and I happen to browse the web or play a political game (HOI or Ultimate General: Civil War) and have a Confederate flag or even a Nazi flag appearing on my stream, I won't get banned. Not as an American, European (German even) or any other citizen of a western liberal democracy. With all the flaws of said countries, the comparison to PRC is absurd and we all know it's absurd.

But either way, my main point remains: it's the risk and responsibility of Chinese players to comply with the laws in their country. These draconian laws should not be spilled-over and affect other people who are not citizens in China.

The precedence in the Olympics is meaningless. You don't perpetuate injustice simply because that instance of injustice succeeded elsewhere.

Fortunately, there are technological means to deal with these problems as a Chinese streamer. It's not their fault that their state is repressive, but it is their responsibility to deal with it and no one else's.

 

[Progeusz]

This is giving me Kiryuu Coco flashbacks.

Except this time situation is tougher to judge because China has a lot of amazing players and I wish them all the best.
At the same time, it's clearly an artificial problem invented by obsessed Chinese government and conforming to their demands would be lunacy.

I hope parties involved are able to work out some solution which doesn't cause problems for anyone.

 

[MrZammuto]

A lot of people don't seem to understand Taiwan at all. There was a revolution and the current Taiwan government was in a mostly three way Civil War with the Communist party and a third group just before Japan invaded. Then everyone stopped fighting eachother mostly and fought the Japanese. Well except the communists they just engaged in some light guerilla warfare and kept to themselves while building up their forces to take advantage of the situation. After the Japanese were defeated Stalin supplied the communists with lots of guns and they took most of "china". Everything except Taiwan infact(and Tibet which was conquored later, but that wasnt actually "china"). Of course "China" has been all shapes and sizes in history and wasnt actually China. People pretend many countries were one state(like britan, germany or france) when they actually were completely different nations that have nothing in common except the(very) general area in which they existed . Taiwan isn't part of "china". And the current government of China has never had control over Taiwan. They couldn't invade the island because the soviets built good tanks not good boats. Taiwan doesn't exist because America props it up, they exist because they don't want to be enslaved by the government that mostly won the Civil War. BTW, did aoe or china ban vivi?

 

[Progeusz]

BTW, did aoe or china ban vivi?

The CN streaming platform he uses gave him temp ban.

because the soviets built good tanks not good boats

Sorry for making use of your message like this but this a perfect excuse to post the Baltic Fleet pasta. I hope anyone who hasn't heard the story yet enjoys it. It deserves to be spread around.

Spoiler: Baltic Fleet

 

[USC_kiky]

Let's focus on AoE, the game, or the amazing players, instead of politics, because all the "truth", "fact", or "history", that you and I read, were all written by the people who wanted us to believe so. When we post an argument, let's state it as something we heard, instead of treating everything we learned as the truth, because after all, they might be biased too.

In retrospect, you may see that the "truth" that many people believed in 50 years, 100 years, or 200 years ago, are different than the "truth" or "common sense" we hold now.

The only timeless truth I know, is that AoE II is a great game and Daut is the lord.

 

[warownia]

What happened to pkz? Im sure he is not active because he would lock this thread already.

 

[haydn]

A lot of people don't seem to understand Taiwan at all. There was a revolution and the current Taiwan government was in a mostly three way Civil War with the Communist party and a third group just before Japan invaded. Then everyone stopped fighting eachother mostly and fought the Japanese. Well except the communists they just engaged in some light guerilla warfare and kept to themselves while building up their forces to take advantage of the situation. After the Japanese were defeated Stalin supplied the communists with lots of guns and they took most of "china". Everything except Taiwan infact(and Tibet which was conquored later, but that wasnt actually "china"). Of course "China" has been all shapes and sizes in history and wasnt actually China. People pretend many countries were one state(like britan, germany or france) when they actually were completely different nations that have nothing in common except the(very) general area in which they existed . Taiwan isn't part of "china". And the current government of China has never had control over Taiwan. They couldn't invade the island because the soviets built good tanks not good boats. Taiwan doesn't exist because America props it up, they exist because they don't want to be enslaved by the government that mostly won the Civil War. BTW, did aoe or china ban vivi?

You are expert!!!

 

[Paint]

I am far from being an expert, but isn‘t Taiwan‘s status quo sort of in-between being independent and part of China (grey zone)?

Taiwan has never been part of China, China used to be part of Taiwan. The civil war happened at the end of WW2 and the end of Japanese colonialism and the communists took over most of the then government controlled land but not the Island of Taiwan. (and some other smaller islands actually)

 

[Miss一歌丶siyuan]

What happened to pkz? Im sure he is not active because he would lock this thread already.

I agree

 

[oozkan]

People pretend many countries were one state(like britan, germany or france)

Huh, Americans.

Had to joke about this, sorry, rest of the post is quite meaningful.

 

[_Donatello_]

Not adding anything to discussion, just wanted to say one of the dumbest guy at my work been talking about Taiwan latly and this is a guy with no knowlegde about history or geography. Ofc most of what he says is not true and it turns out his sources are tiktok and he belive what he learns there.

Point is if he gets tiktok movies about Taiwan here in Norway propably alot of other people also get them all over the world, just be critical about the information you get from the web and specially tiktok

Im sure most here are to old for that app and know its chinese, topic just reminded me about my fool of coleage (he actually play aoe 2 online, no rush black forest games)

 

[HongeyKong]

no rush black forest games)

That says a lot. 11

 

[Semisky]

So this is why Nili asked Yo to talk about Taiwan yesterday(Day 2 NAC4 interview) /s

 

[Cnel_kurtz]

So this is why Nili asked Yo to talk about Taiwan yesterday(Day 2 NAC4 interview) /s

No that was just Nili being Nili and trying to sound edgy, joking about them being able to say "Taiwan", putting Yo unfairly on the spot just to signal his own opposition to Chinese politics.
Imagine having Vinch sitting there and Nili making a joke mentioning Ukraine...
I don't understand why he would put a player who never wanted to get involved in a political conversation and during an AoE LAN event in such an awkward position. I didn't mind his previous political comment /joke during The Grand Melee since that was just him from the caster position and speaking to and for himself, but throwing a player a comment about something that is close to them and not to him was totally disrespecful.

 

[Halleju]

Imagine having Vinch sitting there and Nili making a joke mentioning Ukraine...

Dude, you just ruined Nili's next joke now...