Userptatch 1.6

[Zbyszek]

It has just arrived to voobly! Most notably it now displays the number of vills working on each resource as we know it from DE. It displays global queue and it you can mix units and technilogies in production queues.

v1.6 RC for Age of Empires II: The Conquerors

Community Patch v1.6

www.voobly.com

In general its really great to see that that work is still being put in.
However i think it isnt a good thing to copy everything from the auto everything edition. Most notably mandala mod, vills droping food on docks and auto reseeding.

 

[Hoera]

So you dont want to biggest improvements to the game on DE to be ported to voobly? Is that what you tried to say?

I am pretty much amazed Voobly is still up and running. But then i remember even Gameranger is probably still a thing (which is completely trash).

 

[Zbyszek]

So you dont want to biggest improvements to the game on DE to be ported to voobly? Is that what you tried to say?

2

 

However i think it isnt a good thing to copy everything from the auto everything edition. Most notably mandala mod, vills droping food on docks and auto reseeding.

The difference is you can always also just play on 1.5 patch if you don't like the changes and people are free to do that. Not the same with 2DE, where you are forced to adopt the changes. ;-)

 

[AoeWololo]

I'm happy some are still busy improving the 2nd option to DE. I must agree with OP, the range mod in particular is rather dissapointing for the gameplay and it's hard to understand why they would include it. As Viper said it just makes things predictable. Because you can doesn't mean you should. The DE devs included it because they have lower standards and ultimately for them it remains a great marketingpoint. I can understand that the community patch team would prefer to match DE, I do think they could have been a bit more responsible in that area and prioritize gameplay.

No doubt there is some pressure because the mod has become widespread since the advantage is so significant, eg; we all know the difference one tc volley on some maa can make. With some QoL features such as "auto scout", "range indicators" or "all healthbars visible" I just try to pretend like they don't exist because wtf. Still not the biggest fan of auto reseed however rather neutal on that one atm.

@simonsan Yes that is positive. I'm not sure though about the Voobly playerbase, it doesn't sound viable to be playing on a nonstandard patch.

 

[Joyster]

How can someone dislike auto reseed?

 

[iViktorius]

How can someone dislike auto reseed?

takes away player agency

 

[MembTV]

auto everything = less skills needed.

People can focus on spamm army with 2-3 buttons since everything else is automatic, everyday less multitasking needed, good for casuals and lower players, bad for competitive scene imo.

 

[MaSmOrRa]

auto everything = less skills needed.

People can focus on spamm army with 2-3 buttons since everything else is automatic, everyday less multitasking needed, good for casuals and lower players, bad for competitive scene imo.

Making spamming army a simple process allows people to focus more on strategy which is what this game is all about at the end of the day. That's a good thing in my opinion.

If you make spamming army a very complex process this will invariably favor faster players over players who probably had better strategic decisions but weren't able to spam as much army, because they are slower.

Obviously there's a very fine line between these things, but in my opinion auto reseed does not cross that line.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Making spamming army a simple process allows people to focus more on strategy which is what this game is all about at the end of the day. That's a good thing in my opinion.

If you make spamming army a very complex process this will invariably favor faster players over players who probably had better strategic decisions but weren't able to spam as much army, because they are slower.

Obviously there's a very fine line between these things, but in my opinion auto reseed does not cross that line.

I couldn't agree more. At the moment game rewards players who have a better tactical mind instead of those that are able to just click fast.

 

[Zbyszek]

I couldn't agree more. At the moment game rewards players who have a better tactical mind instead of those that are able to just click fast.

It rewards both. However at the absolute top it makes the game easier. Players were already saying 3 years ago that its purely about execution because strategy is figured out.
The easier the execution is the more standardized the startegies will become.

Edit: back in the day players could gain an advantage by paying attention to the right thing. Now that is way less of a factor because there is less to pay attention to and its easier to switch between areas.

 

[MembTV]

nah dont agree, you dont need to be faster or slower to have a better strategy, the strategy nowdays is wall all anyway, and is not auto ressed, is auto everything.

Its a balance and right now its going more and more to easiest way to play, soon vills will wall automatic.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

^ Is there a comprehensive list of QoL changes that have been added starting with the release of DE? I think having that and going through to see the biggest offenders could help clarify the complaints people have about the game being made easier.

I'm happy some are still busy improving the 2nd option to DE. I must agree with OP, the range mod in particular is rather dissapointing for the gameplay and it's hard to understand why they would include it. As Viper said it just makes things predictable. Because you can doesn't mean you should. The DE devs included it because they have lower standards and ultimately for them it remains a great marketingpoint. I can understand that the community patch team would prefer to match DE, I do think they could have been a bit more responsible in that area and prioritize gameplay.

No doubt there is some pressure because the mod has become widespread since the advantage is so significant, eg; we all know the difference one tc volley on some maa can make. With some QoL features such as "auto scout", "range indicators" or "all healthbars visible" I just try to pretend like they don't exist because wtf. Still not the biggest fan of auto reseed however rather neutal on that one atm.

@simonsan Yes that is positive. I'm not sure though about the Voobly playerbase, it doesn't sound viable to be playing on a nonstandard patch.

All healthbars visible is fine imo. It doesn't add a super obvious advantage like range indicators. The DE "remastered" colored health bars are terrible and make it look like a mobile game so those should be criticized however.

Auto reseed is not really an advantage I think because it can mess up the player if they use it wrong early but it does feel like why need to add it and change the feeling of the game from the original more for no real overall gain. Not really hard to Ctrl+W or whatever "select a mill" hotkey there is and Shift+F a few times occasionally in Imperial Age.

 

[MaSmOrRa]

It rewards both. However at the absolute top it makes the game easier. Players were already saying 3 years ago that its purely about execution because strategy is figured out.
The easier the execution is the more standardized the startegies will become.

If strategy is fully figured out and it's all about execution, shouldn't the fastest players have a huge advantage?
I mean according to you everyone knows what to do, so if someone is able to do the right things faster than his opponent, he should beat him every time.

So how do you explain that Mr. Yo despite having considerably less APM than Lierrey just beat him in TOC?

 

[Zbyszek]

If strategy is fully figured out and it's all about execution, shouldn't the fastest players have a huge advantage?
I mean according to you everyone knows what to do, so if someone is able to do the right things faster than his opponent, he should beat him every time.

So how do you explain that Mr. Yo despite having considerably less APM than Lierrey just beat him in TOC?

execution is not just apm.
There is stuff like army control, eco ballance, knowing where to look, building placements, using queues efficiently, knowing what fights to take,.... All these things arent improved if you click faster.

Also in general clicks arent all the same quality and dont help you to the same extend. For example if you want your army to move somewhere, using more clicks will slow it down.

 

[MaSmOrRa]

execution is not just apm.
There is stuff like army control, eco ballance, knowing where to look, building placements, using queues efficiently, knowing what fights to take,.... All these things arent improved if you click faster.

Also in general clicks arent all the same quality and dont help you to the same extend. For example if you want your army to move somewhere, using more clicks will slow it down.

You're mixing a lot of things there that I would definitely consider strategic decisions and not just "execution".

Since you believe strategy plays absolutely no role at the top level, I assume you also believe Mr. Yo has better "army control" and better "eco balance" than Lierrey and that's why he was able to beat him.

I'd say that's a pretty unpopular opinion, but I guess I'll agree to disagree.

 

[Zbyszek]

Also I wouldnt say that all players are same with strategy but the variety is definetely suffering.

 

[Zbyszek]

Since you believe strategy plays absolutely no role at the top level

ye i never said that.

 

[MaSmOrRa]

ye i never said that.

Players were already saying 3 years ago that its purely about execution because strategy is figured out.

Could you explain what the 2nd quote means then?

 

[lecracheursagacite]

Could you explain what the 2nd quote means then?

By "players were saying" he is not implying he agrees exactly with them, he just offers it as evidence of his point that AoE2 does not have a lot of high level strategic diversity.

 

[Zbyszek]

I assume you also believe Mr. Yo has better "army control" and better "eco balance" than Lierrey and that's why he was able to beat him.

I'd say that's a pretty unpopular opinion, but I guess I'll agree to disagree.

Not excliusively but yes. I listed a much bigger amount of factors above and added "..." at the end.

Could you explain what the 2nd quote means then?

"players were already saying 3 years ago" =/= "I say"

 

[MaSmOrRa]

Not excliusively but yes. I listed a much bigger amount of factors at the above and added ... at the end.

Ok, that's a hard disagree from me there.
I believe Lierrey has much better army control and better eco balance than Mr. Yo and I also believe both these things come from him being much faster.
But alas, I do think strategy still plays a major role in this game and that's why I think Mr. Yo was able to beat him.
Because yes, this game still rewards better strategy.
And yes, you added other factors to the list and you claimed they were linked to "execution", which I disagree with.
"Building placement" and "knowing when to take fights" are for me very clearly strategic decisions.

By "players were saying" he is not implying he agrees exactly with them, he just offers it as evidence of his point that AoE2 does not have a lot of high level strategic diversity.

If he doesn`t agree with that specific point, how can he be referring to it as "evidence"?

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

I think there is a misunderstanding. By tactical mind I meant the approach towards civ match up, the map generation and so on such as castle placements, map control that some players who lack APM are great at ( Yo, Daut ). I think they benefit from the auto features as they are able to focus more on what the real RTS strength should be.

 

[Zbyszek]

Ok, that's a hard disagree from me there.
I believe Lierrey has much better army control and better eco balance than Mr. Yo and I also believe both these things come from him being much faster.
But alas, I do think strategy still plays a major role in this game and that's why I think Mr. Yo was able to beat him.
Because yes, this game still rewards better strategy.

I think Yo is better than liereyy at timing his attacks and sending multiple groups of armies to different locations. That opens up the game for him so that liereyy cant play out his amazing micro. Dont know about eco balance rn specifically.

Strategy being rewarded is just stating the obvious. The point I was trying to make is that DE is making it easier to create a good strategy and that this decreases diversity.

 

[MaSmOrRa]

Strategy being rewarded is just stating the obvious. The point I was trying to make is that DE is making it easier to create a good strategy and that this decreases diversity.

So DE makes it EASIER to come up with a good strategy (I 100% agree) but somehow that DECREASES diversity?


I agree with the 1st part of your post, but again, I consider those strategic decisions and not necessarily "execution".