Use? OR Abuse -- the Market

[IYIyTh]

Fun topic :D

I was recently watching a stream -- and this is something that has always bugged me.

I know that non-english speaking casters tend to use the phrase "abuse the market," and I feel like at some point it got picked up and thrown into the vernacular of English casters as well.

I super appreciate the community have -- and I love all of our casters. Sometimes though, in a mixed environment where Engllish isn't everyone's first language it becomes obvious certain things get repeated even though they might not necessarily make sense -- and no one says anything so it perpetuates.

When using "abuse the market," most casters are typically referring to the use of the market of the player to trade resources for another resource in order to click up -- or in the case of Saracens, use the market advantage to gain a competitive advantage (ie: sell stone for more gold.)

One of the markets only purpose/use is to trade one resource for another. I therefore contend that "use" of the market is actually correct and the intent of most casters when they utilize this phrase. Abuse has a negative connotation that the player is doing something nefarious/using the market for something other than its intended purpose --which would indicate the player is doing something negative or taking advantage of something inappropriately -- when in fact they are using the market for its intended purpose.

Some could potentially argue market use as "excessive use," to be abuse --ie: to the point of being detrimental to their own economy -- but that is not the context of which it is being used when said in casts.

I often hear "market abuse," being used ANY TIME a player uses the market. Just using it to sell stone as Saracens would not = abusing the market, it would mean using one of the civs' advantages as intended. As such, that's not abuse, just intended use of the market for a civ that not only gets a cheaper market, but favorable rates therein. Selling a few hundred wood to afford an upgrade would not be "market abuse," it would be a calculated risk to gain a technology or to age up faster.

I would contend this is not actually abuse -- it, outside of trading (up building/walling aside,) is literally its only use.

You wouldn't say creating a unit from a barracks is abusing the barracks, etc.

Thoughts?

From Webster:
noun
1: a corrupt practice or customthe buying of votes and other election abuses
2: improper or excessive use or treatment : MISUSEdrug abuse
3: language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrilyverbal abusea term of abuse
4: physical maltreatmentchild abusesexual abuse
5obsolete : a deceitful act : DECEPTION

transitive verb
1a: to put to a wrong or improper useabuse a privilege
b: to use excessivelyabuse alcoholalso : to use without medical justificationabusing painkillers
2: to use or treat so as to injure or damage : MALTREATabused his wife
3: to attack in words : REVILEverbally abused the referee
4obsolete : DECEIVE

Also shameless plug come have fun and troll the hell out of me here:

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

www.twitch.tv

 

[iViktorius]

Except for saracens and a DM strat its almost always better to just set your eco correctly. If you need to (ab)use the market you probably did something wrong somewhere. Hence the negative connotation.
You maltreated your eco.
You thought you had a good eco but you were deceived (by yourself).
You excessively gathered one resources while neglecting another.

 

[IYIyTh]

Except for saracens and a DM strat its almost always better to just set your eco correctly. If you need to (ab)use the market you probably did something wrong somewhere. Hence the negative connotation.
You maltreated your eco.
You thought you had a good eco but you were deceived (by yourself).
You excessively gathered one resources while neglecting another.

I'm saying it's improper / inaccurate to use the phrase "abuse the market" any time you buy/sell (typically to click up/for situational purposes.) It's just not correct.

I'm not arguing there is a cost/tradeoff (and actually up to 500food it's cheaper to mine gold / buy food for saracens) to using the market. That doesn't mean you're abusing the market by using it.

You keep using that word.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

www.youtube.com

As such, it still doesn't make sense to say "abuse the market," as you are still using the market for its intended purpose.


This phrase is used regardless. It's also pure opinion since sometimes an extra 100g to get bodkin arrow or CBow can mean the difference in winning/losing a game in early CA. You're not really abusing any part of the game in that case.

Use the market is still much more appropriate.

I would also argue that the casters typically aren't even trying to convey the point you're making when they say abuse the market, as it's quite literally used anytime someone uses the market at all.

 

[Huehuecoyotl22]

Except for saracens and a DM strat its almost always better to just set your eco correctly. If you need to (ab)use the market you probably did something wrong somewhere. Hence the negative connotation.
You maltreated your eco.
You thought you had a good eco but you were deceived (by yourself).
You excessively gathered one resources while neglecting another.

Or you are under attack and lost access to one resource.

 

[kalcium]

Or you are under attack and lost access to one resource.

Or you have to buy your way up to imp to win a treb war

 

[IYIyTh]

Right! All great examples of using (not abusing) the market as it's intended.

 

[IYIyTh]

I think honestly the only correct usage of "Market Abuse" would be when DE allowed buildings to attack units.

 

[Tempires]

market abuse is game slang, just like sling mean sending resources.

There is no such thing as improper / inaccurate to use the phrase as it's part game vocabulary

 

[IYIyTh]

market abuse is game slang, just like sling.

Game vocabulary can be what it is.

I would agree if there wasn't a better and more accurate word to describe what is intended to be described, that happens to be part of the word being misused.

I honestly think it was a harmless mis-translation that simply has been repeated throughout the community -- but it is misuse of the word abuse.

 

[TheCapybara]

English is a very flexible language, meanings evolve and change over time, they're not static. Yes, 'abuse the market' does not necessarily adhere to the dictionary definition of 'abuse', but there are typically more meanings to a lot of words than a dictionary will provide, based on subject matter, setting etc. It's a colloquialism that's become part of the vernacular of the game. It doesn't really do any harm in the context of describing the game.

 

[IYIyTh]

English is a very flexible language, meanings evolve and change over time, they're not static. Yes, 'abuse the market' does not necessarily adhere to the dictionary definition of 'abuse', but there are typically more meanings to a lot of words than a dictionary will provide, based on subject matter, setting etc. It's a colloquialism that's become part of the vernacular of the game. It doesn't really do any harm in the context of describing the game.

Eh, I disagree. I understand the desire to defend the use of the phrase, but it's not correct. Saying it has been used so much incorrectly -- that it warrants us just accepting its improper use is meh to me. There are certainly veritable ways the word "abuse," can be used, but honestly "Abusing the market" anytime the market is used as intended is not a correct use of the word.

I don't think it's actually part of the game nor part of the games vernacular, though -- it's just a misused word that has been repeated in streaming content to the point we have people defending it/don't even question it.

Additionally, I can't agree that "abuse the market," is used colloquially. You don't say in game "I think you should abuse the market." You say, "Use the market to go/click up," Right?

I never say to a teammate "abuse the market to buy stone and drop a castle." -- or "abuse the market to sling me resources."

It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Springoftheking]

"Abusing market" is slang term and because I am not native English speaker, I cannot say how good language it is.

But I agree with that selling and buying is not wrong way using market. Quite opposite. Going next Age is almost always goal in AoE 2 and if you can get up faster with selling or buying, it is good game play. Using market is useful, if you want react your opponents strategy and go up faster than you originally intended or you want change strategy.

So I personally prefer, if it was called just "using market".

 

[HyunaOP]

Kinda makes sense. Market can be seen as your local dealer. He gives you the good shiet and you abuse it to get ahead in life.

Kappa

 

[IYIyTh]

I think maybe all this time the market is slang for prostitution. You can buy and sell wood.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

1a: to put to a wrong or improper use - abuse a privilege

By the definition you offered here every instance where you say someone is "using" the market rather than "abusing" it also allows for the possibility of abusing it.

 

[dodageka]

I think it is abusing in the sense of excessive use, similar to drug abuse. In that way, one could say that the market is used as per design if small amounts of resources are exchanged but it is abused if a whole economy is suddenly turned around.

In the same way you would say someone is using gates if they are used for quickwalls occasionally, but abuses if they are used excessively.

i agree that for the market the delineation is not clear, but I believe this is were the phrase comes from

 

[eC_Gurke]

+1. It has mildly annoyed me aswell, that using the market has such a negative connotation. I get that in many scenarios, its ideal to not use the market, although its sometimes simply the better option (e.g. for pure boom with selling stone).

I am not sure how common it really is tbh. I mostly watch nili and from the top of my head I think he says "uses the market". But maybe im wrong.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

I think it is abusing in the sense of excessive use, similar to drug abuse. In that way, one could say that the market is used as per design if small amounts of resources are exchanged but it is abused if a whole economy is suddenly turned around.

i agree that for the market the delineation is not clear, but I believe this is were the phrase comes from

This is well said. Only thing I would add to this is the other element the term originates from. You could say Saracen play is "abusing" the market because of the advantage you have over the other player with the economic flexibility (which could be construed as unfair) or more generally that the first player selling food/wood when gold gets tight in mid/late Imp is "abusing" the fact that the market prices are shared and their opponent cannot benefit similarly.

In each of the cases, the delineation is, as you say, not clear, so that can lead to some confusion about which is the appropriate term to use. The original post's complaint that some casters overuse the term seems valid given observational evidence from recent tournaments. I wonder how much of it is laziness vs. not understanding vs. abuse being an easier word to enunciate when used as the second part of a compound noun with market.

 

[[KoBHV]venivero]

Since the market is a peaceful building, and abuse means "use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose" and you probably use it for "making war", abuse fits the definition.

 

[IYIyTh]

Each and every defense of using the phrase "abuse the market" requires insinuating an intent that the caster meant something completely out of context for how they've utilized the phrase. "They really need to abuse the market and click up," is not a commentary of the detrimental effect of trading at the market. It's referring to one of the markets singular purpose, trading one resource against gold for a premium or discount. Also, market trading is not banned, nor commonly referred to as cheating -- while not ever technically efficient (except for Saracens,) almost all players will utilize it during a given game. You aren't abusing a market. You're using it.

When referring to the inefficiency, it is still more correct to say that it's inefficient to use the market, not abuse the market.

You don't tell a player who has excess wood and is asking you for gold to abuse the market if the prices are still good, you tell them to use the market.

Abuse the market is an invariably incorrect phrase to describe what is occurring -- and more importantly -- what a caster is describing.

 

[IYIyTh]

+1. It has mildly annoyed me aswell, that using the market has such a negative connotation. I get that in many scenarios, its ideal to not use the market, although its sometimes simply the better option (e.g. for pure boom with selling stone).

I am not sure how common it really is tbh. I mostly watch nili and from the top of my head I think he says "uses the market". But maybe im wrong.

I think I've seen almost all major streamers say both use and abuse interchangeably.

 

[Philippe le Bon]

I propose to utilize the wording "he ****ed the market" to avoid any further confusions

 

[IYIyTh]

I propose to utilize the wording "he ****ed the market" to avoid any further confusions

Ironically, this would be comparable to saying a player "abused," the market.

Perhaps streamers intend to indicate such a thing is occurring. I don't think so, though!

 

[AkeNo]

stop abusing the topic of abusing the market

 

[lecracheursagacite]

stop abusing the topic of abusing the market

I love how he liked it even though it is directed at him.