AOE-II DE Until when these things will remain without nerfs?! (Part 1)

[MAE_ME]

I will list here some insane bonuses and units about some civs that have, that make the balance so bad and hard to deal with, and I will put the reasons why these things need a nerf ASAP? So lets start

1-Wagons and Guns

The Koreans WW, Bohemians Wagons and Organ guns, are one of the most stupid units especially in arena, they are so broken and hard to deal with, they have tons of hp and high output damage, what I want to suggest here is not directly nerfing them but give the counter play a chance and how is that?

Mangonels have a good damage vs Bohemia's Wagons, but for example scorpions don't, give scorpions more damage vs Bohemia Wagons, and give them too a bonus vs Korean Wagons and vs Organ guns, add a bonus damage too for mangonels against Koreans wagons and organs, however, I think Bohemia's wagons hp need to be reduced becasue they are so high and Koreans too not only have high hp, but they have free armor and good mobility and good bonus vs buildings, I think Organ guns need a speed nerf a little bit.

2-The Broken Sicilians

This civ literally have like 3 broken bonuses at once, the 50% less damage bonus is ridiculously OP and insane. The Sicilian knight can kill a camel raider in 1v1 with more than 30hp left for the kngiht! Their scout rush is stupid too wuth this bonus and even their archers take less damage from skirms, this b9nus remove the skill factor, you just send your broken knights or archers with 0 brain and micro and you will win because nothing kill your units, not only that, the devs give the Sicilians another broken UT which is the Hauberk, that make the Sicilians knight way too much OP and harder to deal with, this UT need a nerf too like instead of +1/+2 make it +1/+1 and the 50% less damage bonus should down to 25% instead of 50%.
The 2nd broken bonus is the 100% build faster for castle and TCs. This bonus need a nerf because it is just ridiculous and require 0 skill and 0 brain and 0 risk to drop a castle on someone with this insane 100% build faster for castles because this castle will go up for sure and no one can stop that, you can just drop it on your opponent's face and he have nothing to do, not only that, since Sicilians have 300 stone in their bank from the start getting a castle will be way more easier early, or they can sell this insane 300 stone and do some stuff. This ratio need to be down to 50% if not even less for both TCs and castles and even the 300 stone should be removed and back to 200 stone and give them cheaper Donjons.

The 3rd broken thing that the Sicilian have is the first crusade. Instead of 35 from 5 TCs, give them 15 from 3 TCs and make it cheaper.

3-Burgundians

Burgundians eco literally the best eco in the game, not only have cheap dirt eco discount but this eco too is age before, this discount need a nerf and instead of 50% discount it should down to 25% or 30%. This eco remove the real skill about the macro and eco managment, with Burgundians you will always be ahead and require 0 brain and 0 skill to make a decision to make this upgrade or not since it is already too cheap, even if the Burgundians player lost some vills it is more than fine, because his eco is insane. The other thing that the Flemish revolution need more nerfs, make it more expensive and the Cavlier upgrade in the castle age should back to the normal cost and keep other stable's upgrades on their 50% discount.

* Coustalier charge attack should be reduced to +20 (+25Elite) instead of +25(+30).

* Coustalier training time shoud be increased to 21s (19s Elite) instead of 15s (14s Elite).

4-The cheap dirt Eagles

For a long time this unit have a very very very cheap cost and at the same time play a great role. This unit is a tank that raid under TCs, kill archers, mass easily, even knights can't catch up their numbers when they got their death ball and they actually do well vs knights even cost effectively and the milita line is a laughable counter and monks do nothing. The major problem with the Eagle line is the cheap dirt food cost, which is 20F from 20 years, this cost should be increased to 30F cost if not even 35 or 40, becasue you can literally spam and flood these eagle warriors once you are in the castle age from like 4 or even 5 barracks and yor eco will still fine!!!


5-The Xbow upgrade and the archers training time

For more than 20 years this upgrade have it's cheap dirt cost despite how strong it is. 125f, 50g is just nothing. The archerd meta play became so annoying and boring, I literally see Franks, Lithuans, Khmer and mostly all civs go archers xbows and skirms beforr their transision to their major units. This upgrade should be more expensive, so instead of 125f, 75g, it should be 200F, 125G at least and more upgrade time. The other point that I want to talk about is the archer line training time (which is way more broken wuth Britons with their insane 20% bonus workrate for their ranges). Anyway archers training time should be more and Britons team bonus should down to 10% work faster fot ranged instead of 20%. The archer meta became so broing and their upgrades are so cheap.



6-Mayans and Aztecs

Mayans have great eco, +1 vill from the start, 15% longer resources and cheap archers. Their start should be -100F instead of -50F and their longer resources down to 12% or 10% and their archers should be more expensive.

Aztecs Monks are still stupid and broken, their +5 hp bonus for each upgrade should down to +3 instead, and their relics bonus should down to 25% instead of 33% more gold. Since we suggested before to increase eagles food cost too it will be a good general nerf for the Mesos.

7-Franks and Lithuanians

I think out of 10 games I play, I see Franks, Mayans, Aztecs, Huns, Britons, Gurjaras snd Lithuand more than 7 times, and this is boring you know, for Franks hp bonus should be divided to 10% feudal, 10% castle and their cheap dirt castle bonus should be completely removed, since their UU already counter pikes which it is the unit that counter their knights, so by giving them cheaper castles you are giving them easy way to bring their UU and mix them with their knights, and in general Franks castle spam is just ridiculous with how their cheap cost is.

About Lithuanians I think they should lose thumb ring and their 150F in the start should down to 100F, actually this civ have no weaknesses. Their UU (Litits) need a nerf too, since they completely ignore armor, it makes them on of the most broken units in melee fights that nothing works vs them. They either remove this bonus and give them something else, or reduce Litits hp and increase their cost.


This was all for part 1, I will back later in part 2 and it will be about nerfing the Gurjaras, Hindus, Britons, Cumans and Huns and why these civs need nerfs.

 

[ChipsAreTasty]

Why are you reposting the exact same **** that you posted in December with the same shitty balance ideas 11

 

[MAE_ME]

Why are you reposting the exact same **** that you posted in December with the same shitty balance ideas 11

Here I have put the reasons and I added some different stuff. On the other hand if you have better suggestions then I am listening, but if you think these things are fine and don't need changes then I have nothing to discuss with you. Enjoy!

 

[ChipsAreTasty]

1. Wagons, organ guns:
Build knights or monks? Just because a unit doesn't die to xbow doesn't mean it is broken 11

Both Portuguese and Koreans are pretty streamlined into those options, so you should be playing prepared for those options anyway when you are vs them on arena

Also as you said yourself, mangos flatten bohemian wagons. They have to invest a castle and insane amounts of res to mass wagons and you are complaining when you can stop it with a siege workshop or monastery? 11

2. Hauberk nerf or slight bonus damage nerf are okay, but 100% building castles and tcs as well as first crusade are not broken at all. the investment for both of those things are super high and can still be countered (you can still counter sicilian tc drop with monk spam click + tower/mangonel). First crusade requires upfront cost + infantry upgrades to do anything which is extra investment on top of whatever other comp they were doing.

3. Burgundians have good eco yes, but they aren't broken you just need to play to punish them properly and play aggressive. On maps like arena where they are fully safe they still got mowed down against the top civs because their army comp at the end of the day isnt that great. Cavalier in castle age is also basically only a +2 atk bonus which is lower than Lithuanians with relics and is still fully counter able.

4. Agree with eagles needing a slight food increase

5.xbow upgrade being more could be okay, I disagree with a training time nerf being necessary though

6. I agree with mayans being tuned down on longer lasting resources or cheaper archers,, nerfing starting resources to me sounds unnecessary. For Aztecs I don't think they need a nerf if you are nerfing eagles.

7. Every civ has an option to win vs franks or lithuanian knights, and if you are that scared of them just go super aggressive against them in feudal. Also you complained about franks and lithuanian going xbow but want to nerf their knights? So you want them to play xbow more ? 11

Lithuanians get no other eco bonus apart from the starting food, if you nerf them they become even worse when they are only a mid tier civ

 

[MAE_ME]

1. Wagons, organ guns:
Build knights or monks? Just because a unit doesn't die to xbow doesn't mean it is broken 11

Both Portuguese and Koreans are pretty streamlined into those options, so you should be playing prepared for those options anyway when you are vs them on arena

Also as you said yourself, mangos flatten bohemian wagons. They have to invest a castle and insane amounts of res to mass wagons and you are complaining when you can stop it with a siege workshop or monastery? 11

2. Hauberk nerf or slight bonus damage nerf are okay, but 100% building castles and tcs as well as first crusade are not broken at all. the investment for both of those things are super high and can still be countered (you can still counter sicilian tc drop with monk spam click + tower/mangonel). First crusade requires upfront cost + infantry upgrades to do anything which is extra investment on top of whatever other comp they were doing.

3. Burgundians have good eco yes, but they aren't broken you just need to play to punish them properly and play aggressive. On maps like arena where they are fully safe they still got mowed down against the top civs because their army comp at the end of the day isnt that great. Cavalier in castle age is also basically only a +2 atk bonus which is lower than Lithuanians with relics and is still fully counter able.

4. Agree with eagles needing a slight food increase

5.xbow upgrade being more could be okay, I disagree with a training time nerf being necessary though

6. I agree with mayans being tuned down on longer lasting resources or cheaper archers,, nerfing starting resources to me sounds unnecessary. For Aztecs I don't think they need a nerf if you are nerfing eagles.

7. Every civ has an option to win vs franks or lithuanian knights, and if you are that scared of them just go super aggressive against them in feudal. Also you complained about franks and lithuanian going xbow but want to nerf their knights? So you want them to play xbow more ? 11

Lithuanians get no other eco bonus apart from the starting food, if you nerf them they become even worse when they are only a mid tier civ

You start mocking and here you are almost agree with everything LOL. However, Xbows, Franks and Lithuanians still need nerfs, at least Franks should lose their cheap castles bonus and Lithuans should lose thumb ring and 50F in the start, and you said that Wagons are fine but they are not, they are broken especially in Arena and siege units should have more bonus damage vs Koreans wagons and Organs, on the other hand you mintioned monks but LOL what if I don't have redemption? Monks only works vs Koreans, Organs and Bohemians need redemption, you said too Burgundians can be punished but they can't becasue their upgrades almost free, they are so cheap and hard to punish. Sicilians castle build is broken this is not even thing you can argue with especially with their 300 stone in the bank and first crusade. However, as a start their 50% less bonus damage and Houberk should get nerf. You mintioned that Burgundians cavs are only +2 attack but you forgot something, Burgundians cav upgrade cost 150F, 150G since they have cheap stables upgrades, however this upgrade is not only +2, it is like bloodlines+2attack at once for a normal knight with only 150F, 150G. I could accept this, but their cheap dirt eco need to be nerfed to 30%.

 

[The Pigdog]

For avoidance of doubt, where the OP repeatedly refers to ‘0 brain’, this is a figure of speech rather than a statement of fact.

A lobotomy patient or someone with the entirety of their brain removed would not be able to perform the moves described.

 

[akku]

I will list here some insane bonuses and units about some civs that have, that make the balance so bad and hard to deal with, and I will put the reasons why these things need a nerf ASAP? So lets start

1-Wagons and Guns

The Koreans WW, Bohemians Wagons and Organ guns, are one of the most stupid units especially in arena, they are so broken and hard to deal with, they have tons of hp and high output damage, what I want to suggest here is not directly nerfing them but give the counter play a chance and how is that?

Mangonels have a good damage vs Bohemia's Wagons, but for example scorpions don't, give scorpions more damage vs Bohemia Wagons, and give them too a bonus vs Korean Wagons and vs Organ guns, add a bonus damage too for mangonels against Koreans wagons and organs, however, I think Bohemia's wagons hp need to be reduced becasue they are so high and Koreans too not only have high hp, but they have free armor and good mobility and good bonus vs buildings, I think Organ guns need a speed nerf a little bit.

2-The Broken Sicilians

This civ literally have like 3 broken bonuses at once, the 50% less damage bonus is ridiculously OP and insane. The Sicilian knight can kill a camel raider in 1v1 with more than 30hp left for the kngiht! Their scout rush is stupid too wuth this bonus and even their archers take less damage from skirms, this b9nus remove the skill factor, you just send your broken knights or archers with 0 brain and micro and you will win because nothing kill your units, not only that, the devs give the Sicilians another broken UT which is the Hauberk, that make the Sicilians knight way too much OP and harder to deal with, this UT need a nerf too like instead of +1/+2 make it +1/+1 and the 50% less damage bonus should down to 25% instead of 50%.
The 2nd broken bonus is the 100% build faster for castle and TCs. This bonus need a nerf because it is just ridiculous and require 0 skill and 0 brain and 0 risk to drop a castle on someone with this insane 100% build faster for castles because this castle will go up for sure and no one can stop that, you can just drop it on your opponent's face and he have nothing to do, not only that, since Sicilians have 300 stone in their bank from the start getting a castle will be way more easier early, or they can sell this insane 300 stone and do some stuff. This ratio need to be down to 50% if not even less for both TCs and castles and even the 300 stone should be removed and back to 200 stone and give them cheaper Donjons.

The 3rd broken thing that the Sicilian have is the first crusade. Instead of 35 from 5 TCs, give them 15 from 3 TCs and make it cheaper.

3-Burgundians

Burgundians eco literally the best eco in the game, not only have cheap dirt eco discount but this eco too is age before, this discount need a nerf and instead of 50% discount it should down to 25% or 30%. This eco remove the real skill about the macro and eco managment, with Burgundians you will always be ahead and require 0 brain and 0 skill to make a decision to make this upgrade or not since it is already too cheap, even if the Burgundians player lost some vills it is more than fine, because his eco is insane. The other thing that the Flemish revolution need more nerfs, make it more expensive and the Cavlier upgrade in the castle age should back to the normal cost and keep other stable's upgrades on their 50% discount.

4-The cheap dirt Eagles

For a long time this unit have a very very very cheap cost and at the same time play a great role. This unit is a tank that raid under TCs, kill archers, mass easily, even knights can't catch up their numbers when they got their death ball and they actually do well vs knights even cost effectively and the milita line is a laughable counter and monks do nothing. The major problem with the Eagle line is the cheap dirt food cost, which is 20F from 20 years, this cost should be increased to 30F cost if not even 35 or 40, becasue you can literally spam and flood these eagle warriors once you are in the castle age from like 4 or even 5 barracks and yor eco will still fine!!!


5-The Xbow upgrade and the archers training time

For more than 20 years this upgrade have it's cheap dirt cost despite how strong it is. 125f, 50g is just nothing. The archerd meta play became so annoying and boring, I literally see Franks, Lithuans, Khmer and mostly all civs go archers xbows and skirms beforr their transision to their major units. This upgrade should be more expensive, so instead of 125f, 75g, it should be 200F, 125G at least and more upgrade time. The other point that I want to talk about is the archer line training time (which is way more broken wuth Britons with their insane 20% bonus workrate for their ranges). Anyway archers training time should be more and Britons team bonus should down to 10% work faster fot ranged instead of 20%. The archer meta became so broing and their upgrades are so cheap.



6-Mayans and Aztecs

Mayans have great eco, +1 vill from the start, 15% longer resources and cheap archers. Their start should be -100F instead of -50F and their longer resources down to 12% or 10% and their archers should be more expensive.

Aztecs Monks are still stupid and broken, their +5 hp bonus for each upgrade should down to +3 instead, and their relics bonus should down to 25% instead of 33% more gold. Since we suggested before to increase eagles food cost too it will be a good general nerf for the Mesos.

7-Franks and Lithuanians

I think out of 10 games I play, I see Franks, Mayans, Aztecs, Huns, Britons, Gurjaras snd Lithuand more than 7 times, and this is boring you know, for Franks hp bonus should be divided to 10% feudal, 10% castle and their cheap dirt castle bonus should be completely removed, since their UU already counter pikes which it is the unit that counter their knights, so by giving them cheaper castles you are giving them easy way to bring their UU and mix them with their knights, and in general Franks castle spam is just ridiculous with how their cheap cost is.

About Lithuanians I think they should lose thumb ring and their 150F in the start should down to 100F, actually this civ have no weaknesses.


This was all for part 1, I will back later in part 2 and it will be about nerfing the Gurjaras, Hindus, Britons, Cumans and Huns and why these civs need nerfs.

Most of these are fine IMO. However, I agree with you on some of these points.

1. As you said, these are OP only in arena or other similar closed maps.
Which is fine, some civs have their own strengths and weaknesses, It is ok for some civs to be powerhouses in arena, we don't need every civs to be balances in every map.

And really, even disregarding Redemption (which half the civs dont get), Wagons and Hussite Wagons can be countered relatively easily - skirms and mangonels.
So, only the Organ Guns stand out really, and Portugese doesn't really have a good eco bonus to back it up, which balances it out


2. Nah, Sicilians are perfect the place where it's at.
Sicilians don't get paladins, and Hauberk has already been nerfed.
Sicilians don't really "excel" at anything, they are more of just an above average cav/infantry civ, so the 50% damage reduction is fine.

At best, say make the castle drop 50% faster in CA and 100% in imperial age. Sicilians are already just an average civ, nerf them more and they become bad.

3. Burgundians
They are also fine where they are. Cavalier upgrade being 50% in CA is fine, since they don't have bloodlines. Cavalier upgrade takes so long, and their light cav line suffers from back of bloodlines.

Most cases of flemish revolution really just fail, and are a desperate move. I however am fine, if the devs decide to change it as well.


4. Somewhat agree for eagles.
I say make it 30 food, 40 gold.....thus maintaining total cost, while making it a bit harder to mass in early/mid castle age

5. Agree for crossbow upgrade cost, disagree for archer training time.

6. Aztecs are fine where they're at.
I think Mayan archer cost reduction can be tweaked a bit

7. No, just no

 

[ChipsAreTasty]

You start mocking and here you are almost agree with everything LOL. However, Xbows, Franks and Lithuanians still need nerfs, at least Franks should lose their cheap castles bonus and Lithuans should lose thumb ring and 50F in the start, and you said that Wagons are fine but they are not, they are broken especially in Arena and siege units should have more bonus damage vs Koreans wagons and Organs, on the other hand you mintioned monks but LOL what if I don't have redemption? Monks only works vs Koreans, Organs and Bohemians need redemption, you said too Burgundians can be punished but they can't becasue their upgrades almost free, they are so cheap and hard to punish. Sicilians castle build is broken this is not even thing you can argue with especially with their 300 stone in the bank and first crusade. However, as a start their 50% less bonus damage and Houberk should get nerf. You mintioned that Burgundians cavs are only +2 attack but you forgot something, Burgundians cav upgrade cost 150F, 150G since they have cheap stables upgrades, however this upgrade is not only +2, it is like bloodlines+2attack at once for a normal knight with only 150F, 150G. I could accept this, but their cheap dirt eco need to be nerfed to 30%.

I agreed with a handful of things and only to a certain degree 11. Even on the things I semi-agreed on the depth to which you want to nerf these things are absolutely ridiculous

You literally just ignored the part about knights, which can kill organs ? And bohemian wagons you don't even need the monks because you can just build mangonels (newsflash, every civ in the game gets mangonels and nearly every civ in the game gets knights or redemption). War wagons die to e-skirms too which everyone in the game besides turks die to so? 1111

Franks sure you can make an argument for some nerfs (although I dont think they need anything changed) but Lithuanians? The civ isn't in need of a nerf at all 1111 Thumb ring nerf will do ****ing nothing to a civ with no arbalest, and nerfing their only eco bonus which isn't even that strong is an absolutely ridiculous idea 11

Sicilian castle dropping is not broken, you can still prevent it just like I said in my previous comment. Also, starting with 100 extra stone changes barely anything about the castle drop 11

In regards to burgundians, they can be punished with feudal aggression, because by the beginning of feudal they will have barely paid off double bit axe and so their eco bonus is having nearly no effect yet. M@a archers, M@a towers, all-in scout play ect can all punish the civ if you play it right. For cavalier, yes its basically you pay 50 gold for +2 atk in castle age (as the rest of the cost would be the bloodlines cost). But this is a bonus that is still not broken and you still have the massive tradeoff of not having the possibility to go for bloodlines for your scouts in feudal age which can be key in certain situations.

 

[AttilaTheHun]

Please add the following to the first post:

tl;dr all civs are OP and need a nerf.

 

[hellhammer]

Equalizer strikes back!!

 

[SouFire]

While only WW and organ guns are broken on arena or walled maps, cause they can break with ease and you need to invest twice to stop their 1 tc FI pushes and play like a clown to stand a chance, but please just STOP IT with the hate towards mayans, they are just easy to play, absolutely none of their stats is broken compared to any of the new civs.

The civ has no SO, no good monks, not even champs, we are not in aoc times, we have imperial skirm, rathan, rata, BE, tarkans that need 170 hits to be killed by plums, hussars with 7 PA, indian UU that melts archers better than husk, etc, mayans were once decent at post imperial on old aoc balance, but not anymore they are inferior to most civs now in late game, any further nerf will turn the civ into F tier.

 

[MAE_ME]

I agreed with a handful of things and only to a certain degree 11. Even on the things I semi-agreed on the depth to which you want to nerf these things are absolutely ridiculous

You literally just ignored the part about knights, which can kill organs ? And bohemian wagons you don't even need the monks because you can just build mangonels (newsflash, every civ in the game gets mangonels and nearly every civ in the game gets knights or redemption). War wagons die to e-skirms too which everyone in the game besides turks die to so? 1111

Franks sure you can make an argument for some nerfs (although I dont think they need anything changed) but Lithuanians? The civ isn't in need of a nerf at all 1111 Thumb ring nerf will do ****ing nothing to a civ with no arbalest, and nerfing their only eco bonus which isn't even that strong is an absolutely ridiculous idea 11

Sicilian castle dropping is not broken, you can still prevent it just like I said in my previous comment. Also, starting with 100 extra stone changes barely anything about the castle drop 11

In regards to burgundians, they can be punished with feudal aggression, because by the beginning of feudal they will have barely paid off double bit axe and so their eco bonus is having nearly no effect yet. M@a archers, M@a towers, all-in scout play ect can all punish the civ if you play it right. For cavalier, yes its basically you pay 50 gold for +2 atk in castle age (as the rest of the cost would be the bloodlines cost). But this is a bonus that is still not broken and you still have the massive tradeoff of not having the possibility to go for bloodlines for your scouts in feudal age which can be key in certain situations.

Again you said useless things. Knights barely counter organs, and mass a unit cost wood and gold is not like mass unit cost food and gold. I am actually starting to doubt if you even play the game, your replies like everything is in hand and easy to deal with which is not the case in the practical situation. You can't deny at all how a castle build 100% faster is hard to deny and how counter a unit that have free armor and 150hp in early castle age rush in arena is hard to deal with, if that was the case one would complain but this is not the case just go and play the game, I wonder what is your ELO tbf. Again you said Burgundians easy to punish but they are not, when I play with Burgundians I can do a normal 20 pop scout rush and at the same time I always get bouble bit axe, horse collar and heavy plaw. Their eco indeed is broken.

 

[MAE_ME]

While only WW and organ guns are broken on arena or walled maps, cause they can break with ease and you need to invest twice to stop their 1 tc FI pushes and play like a clown to stand a chance, but please just STOP IT with the hate towards mayans, they are just easy to play, absolutely none of their stats is broken compared to any of the new civs.

The civ has no SO, no good monks, not even champs, we are not in aoc times, we have imperial skirm, rathan, rata, BE, tarkans that need 170 hits to be killed by plums, hussars with 7 PA, indian UU that melts archers better than husk, etc, mayans were once decent at post imperial on old aoc balance, but not anymore they are inferior to most civs now in late game, any further nerf will turn the civ into F tier.

All DE civs with all the DLCs have broken stats indeed I agree. Hindus, Gurjaras, Cumans, Lithuans, Sicilians, Burgundians, Bohemians and even Ploes. Literally all these civs need nerfs. However, we still have broken things from 20 years too. I wonder what is going with the devs tbf, every dlc they bring more broken stuff and let the old ones broken as they are as if nothing happened and everything is fine. What bothers me more that most of the players too think the game is fine and the civs are balanced LOL. Seems all what they want is just play the game with more units and more weird stuff and more civs, they like a game that have 100 civs for sure regardless being fair play or not, broken or not.

 

[MAE_ME]

Equalizer strikes back!!

Copy this topic and put in the offical forum instead of me

 

[MAE_ME]

Most of these are fine IMO. However, I agree with you on some of these points.

1. As you said, these are OP only in arena or other similar closed maps.
Which is fine, some civs have their own strengths and weaknesses, It is ok for some civs to be powerhouses in arena, we don't need every civs to be balances in every map.

And really, even disregarding Redemption (which half the civs dont get), Wagons and Hussite Wagons can be countered relatively easily - skirms and mangonels.
So, only the Organ Guns stand out really, and Portugese doesn't really have a good eco bonus to back it up, which balances it out


2. Nah, Sicilians are perfect the place where it's at.
Sicilians don't get paladins, and Hauberk has already been nerfed.
Sicilians don't really "excel" at anything, they are more of just an above average cav/infantry civ, so the 50% damage reduction is fine.

At best, say make the castle drop 50% faster in CA and 100% in imperial age. Sicilians are already just an average civ, nerf them more and they become bad.

3. Burgundians
They are also fine where they are. Cavalier upgrade being 50% in CA is fine, since they don't have bloodlines. Cavalier upgrade takes so long, and their light cav line suffers from back of bloodlines.

Most cases of flemish revolution really just fail, and are a desperate move. I however am fine, if the devs decide to change it as well.


4. Somewhat agree for eagles.
I say make it 30 food, 40 gold.....thus maintaining total cost, while making it a bit harder to mass in early/mid castle age

5. Agree for crossbow upgrade cost, disagree for archer training time.

6. Aztecs are fine where they're at.
I think Mayan archer cost reduction can be tweaked a bit

7. No, just no

Seeing you say Sicilians and Burgundians are fine is really weird tbf. For Sicilians do you really know how their 50% less damage is broken? Their knight kill a camel raider in 1v1 fight with more than 30hp left and pikes do nothing, even their archers take less damage. This bonus is just ridiculous and weird design and should get nerf like to 25% or 30% instead and their Hauberk it insane it is just a Huskarl on a horse and why you should make their knights that much atrong anyway?! +1/+1 is more than enough vs this broken civ. On the other hand the first crusade and 100% build castles and TCs is indeed broken and should cut by half since they take 0 risks and 0 skill to castle drop anywhere. Burgundians eco is not fine, the 50% discount with being age before is just insane and hard to keep up with, their eco at least should get nerf. You said Franks and Lithuans are fine which is a weird thing againt since both of these 2 civs being presented so much on the ladder and tournaments and being picked over and over again. Franks at least should lose their cheap castles and Lithuans food in the start should down to 100.

 

[Influenza]

they have all these gimmicky difficult to balance bonuses now by necessity, because they keep introducing civs that dont belong in the game. For example, the bohemians BBC + halbs do not need to be rebalanced, the civ just needs to be removed. it never will be, nor will the game ever be adequately balanced as they keep adding more and more civs. atm you have gurjaras ruining BOA3 so what can you really do

 

[MAE_ME]

they have all these gimmicky difficult to balance bonuses now by necessity, because they keep introducing civs that dont belong in the game. For example, the bohemians BBC + halbs do not need to be rebalanced, the civ just needs to be removed. it never will be, nor will the game ever be adequately balanced as they keep adding more and more civs. atm you have gurjaras ruining BOA3 so what can you really do

Exactly well said man. This is one of main issues. We have old problems and instead of fixing it, the devs keep adding new problem, new civs with new broken and unbalanced bonuses. This circle will never end or being fixed as long as they just keep ignoring everything and just add new civs. Every civ will be added to the game will make the balance way worse, the game still have unbalanced bonuses from 20 years with no major nerfs or fixes.

 

[Nicov]

You guys talk about new civs but britons have been there since day 1 and their team bonus has never received a tweak/change/whatever and it's the best one by a thousand miles. I couldn't care less about the halb + bbc combo from bohemians, thats nowhere as relevant as the britons in teamgame. Gurjaras, as broken as they can be, will surely get addressed sooner or later after watching boa3 or playing any 1v1 ranked game.

 

[MAE_ME]

You guys talk about new civs but britons have been there since day 1 and their team bonus has never received a tweak/change/whatever. I couldn't care less about the halb + bbc combo from bohemians, thats nowhere as relevant as the britons in teamgame.

I have mentioned the Britons team bonus in my post, the 20% work rate should be down to 10% at least, this bonus is not only strong in tgs, but even in 1v1 in addition to their insane +1 range in castle age

 

[GosBanyat]

they have all these gimmicky difficult to balance bonuses now by necessity, because they keep introducing civs that dont belong in the game. For example, the bohemians BBC + halbs do not need to be rebalanced, the civ just needs to be removed. it never will be, nor will the game ever be adequately balanced as they keep adding more and more civs. atm you have gurjaras ruining BOA3 so what can you really do

everything ends the peaceful is willing to, the geography i stands compares you superior

 

[Rise_]

the more you nerf xbows the more we go through kt siege meta which is just the worst

 

[RobChang]

the more you nerf xbows the more we go through kt siege meta which is just the worst

Also nerf knights ofc as the xbow knight interaction is kinda balanced. Xbow upgrade just shouldn't best upgrade in castle age and also cheapest.

If Xbow wouldnt train 20% faster than archers that would also mean the faster researched xbow upgrade of briton mates wont be as strong.

Archers are designed to be too strong. Cost no food, are trained fast, can be upgraded from feudal to castle age, get +1 range by doing that, have natural ranged advantage. Imo I feel xbow stats are still made for when the archer and xbow line were meant to be seperate. At least make the upgrade more expensive for that value it generates.

The Briton tb also wouldnt be as strong if it didnt come with the strongest archer civ, but like if britons were more reliabt on longbows as they should be and their xbow/arbs just not being competitive due to lacking TR and having no free range as (over-)compensation.

 

[akku]

Seeing you say Sicilians and Burgundians are fine is really weird tbf. For Sicilians do you really know how their 50% less damage is broken? Their knight kill a camel raider in 1v1 fight with more than 30hp left and pikes do nothing, even their archers take less damage. This bonus is just ridiculous and weird design and should get nerf like to 25% or 30% instead and their Hauberk it insane it is just a Huskarl on a horse and why you should make their knights that much atrong anyway?! +1/+1 is more than enough vs this broken civ. On the other hand the first crusade and 100% build castles and TCs is indeed broken and should cut by half since they take 0 risks and 0 skill to castle drop anywhere. Burgundians eco is not fine, the 50% discount with being age before is just insane and hard to keep up with, their eco at least should get nerf. You said Franks and Lithuans are fine which is a weird thing againt since both of these 2 civs being presented so much on the ladder and tournaments and being picked over and over again. Franks at least should lose their cheap castles and Lithuans food in the start should down to 100.

If Burgundians and Sicialians are actually as OP as you say, their win rate would suggest it.
Burgundians is an above average civ, Sicilians is an average civ. Neither of them are OP

Sicilians basically have no eco bonus until their farm bonus stats kicking in (i.e until early-mid castle age). So, the strategy is to punish them before they get their knights rolling.
And even in late game, any paladin civ, or a civ that gets heavy camel (heavy camels do win against them 1v1) or heavy cav archer can deal fine with their cavaliers. It's only foot archer civs that are going to struggle, but if you are in that matchup you should keep that in mind and try to finish them off early.

Burgundian eco bonus shine only in team games in maps where you can boom relatively undisturbed. In regular 1v1s, you can pressure them if they decide to just sit and boom with their eco.
We have seen that several times in both pro ladder as well as 1v1 tournaments. There is always a tradeoff, if you decide to get all your eco bonus one age earlier.

Franks is a top 5 civ in Arabia and in general open maps. But there are maps where they underperform too. They are strong, but not OP by any means.
What do you even mean by OP here? What percentage of pro winrate for a civ would you classify as OP?

Lithuanians literally have no eco bonus except for the initial 150 food. Why do you want to take that away too? I don't feel strongly about it, maybe take it away and give them some other eco bonus, idc.
They have already been struck with nerf after nerf. Losing blast furnace and losing 1PA from their Leitis. We see Lithuaninans getting picked in touraments, and they lose more often than not, if picked ass a pocket.
And again, their win rate suggests that they are right about.......average.


Pro win rates, for 1650+ elo:
- Burgundians: 53.3%
- Franks: 55.3%
- Lithuanins: 50.5%
- Sicilains: 42.5%
None of these civs are OP.
Franks are top 5, or even no1 depending on your criteria (some civ has to be). Burgundians top 10. Lithuanians average. Sicilians even below average (I thought they would be average)
What is even the argument here? That anything that is strong has to be nerfed to oblivion? Why??

 

[MAE_ME]

lease add the following to the first post:

If Burgundians and Sicialians are actually as OP as you say, their win rate would suggest it.
Burgundians is an above average civ, Sicilians is an average civ. Neither of them are OP

Sicilians basically have no eco bonus until their farm bonus stats kicking in (i.e until early-mid castle age). So, the strategy is to punish them before they get their knights rolling.
And even in late game, any paladin civ, or a civ that gets heavy camel (heavy camels do win against them 1v1) or heavy cav archer can deal fine with their cavaliers. It's only foot archer civs that are going to struggle, but if you are in that matchup you should keep that in mind and try to finish them off early.

Burgundian eco bonus shine only in team games in maps where you can boom relatively undisturbed. In regular 1v1s, you can pressure them if they decide to just sit and boom with their eco.
We have seen that several times in both pro ladder as well as 1v1 tournaments. There is always a tradeoff, if you decide to get all your eco bonus one age earlier.

Franks is a top 5 civ in Arabia and in general open maps. But there are maps where they underperform too. They are strong, but not OP by any means.
What do you even mean by OP here? What percentage of pro winrate for a civ would you classify as OP?

Lithuanians literally have no eco bonus except for the initial 150 food. Why do you want to take that away too? I don't feel strongly about it, maybe take it away and give them some other eco bonus, idc.
They have already been struck with nerf after nerf. Losing blast furnace and losing 1PA from their Leitis. We see Lithuaninans getting picked in touraments, and they lose more often than not, if picked ass a pocket.
And again, their win rate suggests that they are right about.......average.


Pro win rates, for 1650+ elo:
- Burgundians: 53.3%
- Franks: 55.3%
- Lithuanins: 50.5%
- Sicilains: 42.5%
None of these civs are OP.
Franks are top 5, or even no1 depending on your criteria (some civ has to be). Burgundians top 10. Lithuanians average. Sicilians even below average (I thought they would be average)
What is even the argument here? That anything that is strong has to be nerfed to oblivion? Why??

Because winrate is not the major factor to decide if the civ is broken or not. Picking rate have a factor, games numbers, etc. For example, you said Sicilians have 42.5% winrate but actually the civ is just broken, yeah it is! A civ that have instant army, OP 50% less bonus damage, 100% build rate for castles and TCs is clearly not a balanced civ at all and it is just broken! Chinese and Aztecs too have not that good winrates meanwhile all the pros consider them S tier. Burgundians winrate is high indeed and being picked always in tournaments same for Sicilians. Winrate is not always a factor, there are some bonuses that have broken stats that need a tweak and nerf and have situations that make their bonuses insanely OP.

 

[akku]

Because winrate is not the major factor to decide if the civ is broken or not. Picking rate have a factor, games numbers, etc. For example, you said Sicilians have 42.5% winrate but actually the civ is just broken, yeah it is! A civ that have instant army, OP 50% less bonus damage, 100% build rate for castles and TCs is clearly not a balanced civ at all and it is just broken! Chinese and Aztecs too have not that good winrates meanwhile all the pros consider them S tier. Burgundians winrate is high indeed and being picked always in tournaments same for Sicilians. Winrate is not always a factor, there are some bonuses that have broken stats that need a tweak and nerf and have situations that make their bonuses insanely OP.

Aztecs is top 5 and Chinese top 10 in the high elo ladder.
And yeah, they get picked often in tournaments, and pros rate them S tier or A tier.

But, which pro rates Sicilians S tier or A tier? If it's as broken as you say it is, surely the pros would pick it more often in tournaments, would rate them highly in their tier system etc. Right?

To use the instant army to full effect, you need 5 TCs and need to happen while enemy is relatively low in army number. Which isn't happening in almost any scenario except in arena or fortress.
And the units that come out of it are mediocre. Almost everyone agrees that sergeants are just plain mediocre.
Not broken. If you disagree, tell me. What percentage of the games do you think were decided by First Crusade? I'll take a wild guess and assume it's less than 5%.

50% bonus damage reduction looks good on paper, but Sicilians otherwise just get cavalier. Sicilians don't get thumb ring, so their arbs also mediocre. Point being, the 50% bonus damage reduction would be OP on a civ which has great units to begin with (say if they had a paladin instead of cavalier)
Sicilian cavalier loses to any paladin, even Byzantine paladin. So, overpowering them with heavy cav is an option. They also lose 1v1 to heavy camels, though they still do much better against them than regular cavalier. They perform nearly the same as a regular paladin against heavy cav archer (a bit worse).
Like I said, their cavaliers are OP only against foot archer civs.