TTL | Seeding

[robo]

Initially, our rulebook stated that we would do random seeding within groups. Truthfully it was an aspect of this league that we hadn't discussed as in-depth as we should have. Upon implementing our system, we immediately realized how flawed this thinking was & opted to rectify this by basing placement on the ATP rankings, the very system we used to place players into the Platinum & Gold leagues.

Instead of any randomization being involved we placed players evenly into each group based on their 1v1 ATP rankings in a snake format, leading to an even "spacing" between seeds. Ultimately changing the handbook felt necessary for TTL to have the competition & balance we are striving for, and to start off on the right foot from the beginning. We strongly believe this is the best outcome to ensure a fair and competitive event.


Platinum League

Gold League

 

[Giuseppe551]

So if I understand the settings correctly one of ACCM, Mbl, Tatoh, Nicov, and Dogao will be automatically relegated to the lower league for season 2?

 

[Hera_]

Will this system be used for other tourneys in the future? I like the core idea of the system but some aspects of it are very concerning. Just wondering how impactful it will be for the future.

 

[T90Official]

Will this system be used for other tourneys in the future? I like the core idea of the system but some aspects of it are very concerning. Just wondering how impactful it will be for the future.

Are you asking about TTL's future or other events using ATP? For Titans League the goal is to use TTL results for future seasons and ATP as secondary if needed. If you're asking about ATP's application as a whole that's ultimately dependent on tournament hosts which history shows will vary greatly. If you do have concerns or feedback regarding ATP this thread is the way to go, lovely amounts of discussion & feedback going on there and I'm sure your POV will be valued in the discussion.

So if I understand the settings correctly one of ACCM, Mbl, Tatoh, Nicov, and Dogao will be automatically relegated to the lower league for season 2?

Correct, bottom 2 of each group are relegated, 3rd from bottom survives, Top 3 from each group go into the playoffs. There's a legend here that breaks it down which is quite nice.

 

[_Ra_]

Seeding doesn't mean ****. To be #1 you gotta beat all.

Hera YOU'RE NUMBER ONE. YOU'RE WHAT CHRIS WAS. KING.

GO GET IT

 

[Hera_]

Seeding doesn't mean ****. To be #1 you gotta beat all.

Hera YOU'RE NUMBER ONE. YOU'RE WHAT CHRIS WAS. KING.

GO GET IT

its not for me bro its just the system as a whole. Mbl almost couldnt get into plat league. Heart didnt get into gold league even...

 

[Festivus]

Man as much as I am currently hyped for this I just dread season 2 already. I feel like we are headed for a full on train wreck. Knowing that it is a certainty for 2 of ACCM/BadBoy/Dogao/MBL/Nicov/Tatoh and 2 of BacT/Capoch/Liereyy/Slam/SongSong/Vinchester, not to mention the other groups which are arguably as deep as well, to get relegated and replaced by people losing in the quarterfinals of the gold league makes me very nervous. If you win first in your gold league group you automatically replace a platinum member. If you get second or third in your gold league group you just need to win one series against another gold league member to replace a platinum member.

I'm sure this is 100% on me and not meant as a knock on the other players, but outside of Sitaux and Daniel I'm not overly familiar with the other members of group D. So in a hypothetical situation where Sitaux gets 1st in the group, Daniel 2nd, one of KingstoNe/Overtaken/Sebastion/Bloodless can get third and need just one series win vs Daniel to get promoted to platinum. Over someone like ACCM/Dogao/MBL/Nicov/Tatoh. I just can't imagine a world where this isn't at least heavily questioned as to whether that player earned the spot. I still would heavily push for a system where the gold quarterfinal losers play the 5th place platinum group stage members in relegation matches. Would make it impossible to argue the validity of those slots and it would be some very entertaining matches.

All that being said, the platinum roster looks stacked. I'm very excited for the competition and will be there watching, cheering, supporting as much as I can. The fact that it is possible for some of the names I am not very familiar with in gold league to prove themselves, make a bigger name for themselves and move up to platinum league is very enticing and I'm sure it will make for good story lines. I would love to be proven wrong about the relegation system and season 2 onward, but I envision it being a mess. I'll await it anxiously to see what happens. Best of luck to all involved.

 

[Michaerbse]

Heart didnt get into gold league even...

Hearttt hasn't played a 1v1 event in 15 months. Pretty sure that AoE2 is the only (e)Sports where people complain that an inactive player is not qualified for a major event.

 

[Michaerbse]

To get some more positive vibes / hype, let's move from the seeding to predictions

Platinum league:

In group A I guess Viper, Daut and JorDan are the favourites. Not sure about JorDan's shape though, he seemed a bit shaky recently. The other 3 players are underdogs in this constellation but all seem to be in incredibly good shape. I feel like classicpro may have lost a bit of this but let's see. Anyhow, I think it would be a surprise to see any of the GL players not making it into Ro12. My guess:

1. TheViper
2. DauT
3. JorDan
4. miguel
5. classicpro
6. saymyname

In group B Hera, Villese and Yo should make it into Ro12 rather easily. bruh had been in really, really bad shape (outside of top 50) until recently but his Aorus League result gives me hope that he is (on his way) back. Dragonstar was one of the rising stars of the last 3 months (together with classicpro) but since his move he seems a bit off. Imo, Barles is the clear favourite for rank #4 but I don't really see anyone challenging the top 3 in this group. My guess:

1. Yo
2. Villese
3. Hera
4. Barles
5. The_Dragonstar
6. bruh

In group C I think Liereyy and Vinchester will easily qualify. Behind this it's gonna be tricky though. Capoch had been focusing on AoE4 for some time but recently his results have been better than ever. slam still feels a bit inconsistent, BacT even more, also due to health issues I believe. And SongSong is also always able to pull off an upset. My guess:

1. Vinchester
2. Liereyy
3. slam
4. Capoch
5. BacT
6. SongSong

In group D I think TaToH and ACCM are the favourites. Nicov is in very strong shape as well but his mental game still feels quite weak. MbL is kinda impossible to predict cause he didn't play many tournaments recently. dogao is in rather bad shape imo. Badboy is most certainly the underdog in the group. My guess:

1. TaToH
2. ACCM
3. Nicov
4. MbL
5. dogao
6. Badboy

Gold League:

In group A I think Fat_Dragon and Valas should qualify quite easily. Margougou and repard are dangerous opponents though. And Vodka was on a top 20 level before focusing on AoE4 for some time, not sure what he will be able to show. Ubetnir is the underdog I think.

Group B feels like the weakest to me with two higher seeded but Arena-focused players, although at least DracKeN is probably among the more versatile clowns. F1Re should clearly win this group imo. I would be surprised if Dziamdziak manages to reach top 4. The rest is tough to predict for me but Nili's ladder performance and last tournament results don't give me much hope for him to reach top 4 in the group or even top 12 of the league.

Group C is imo the most unpredictable one. Dark is the favourite for me. I'd have slightly lower expectations for Cl3m3nt but in the end I really think anyone can beat anyone here.

In Group D Sitaux should be the clear favourite and Daniel should reach at least Top 12 as well. KingstoN and Sebastian have improved a lot and Overtaken has had some good results in the past as well. As for other Arena experts it's tough to predict The Bloodless's performance but he's certainly not an easy opponent either.

 

[XDDXOXO]

If you are complaining that certain players will be relegated after the first season, then you are either trolling or not understanding a league system. If they relegate they have clearly not been good enough in that season and have a chance to move up again next season. That's how it works in any sports league format (except US franchise league system).

 

[Shakal]

If you are complaining that certain players will be relegated after the first season, then you are either trolling or not understanding a league system. If they relegate they have clearly not been good enough in that season and have a chance to move up again next season.

Imo relegation in general is good for the league format, the problem is that with this seeding, these groups, and this amount of relegated players (8/24, a third of the players), it is unavoidable that the relegated players are significantly better than the ones replacing them.

The balanced way of doing relegation here would be e.g. the top 4 from gold league replacing bottom 4 from platinum (last place of each group) and than 5-8 from gold league playing "deciders" against 17-20 from platinum league.

Just for comparison, football leagues Premier League, La Liga and Serie A all have 20 teams with 3 relegation.

 

[Giuseppe551]

If you are complaining that certain players will be relegated after the first season, then you are either trolling or not understanding a league system. If they relegate they have clearly not been good enough in that season and have a chance to move up again next season.

So you think it's fine that a top 12-15 player in the world from group D will be relegated to the semipro league while several barely top 20 players will continue in platinum? Do you really think these are the absolute best settings we can come up with?

 

[OnArtu]

If you are complaining that certain players will be relegated after the first season, then you are either trolling or not understanding a league system. If they relegate they have clearly not been good enough in that season and have a chance to move up again next season. That's how it works in any sports league format (except US franchise league system).

I don't think you've understood the criticism that has been moved. Having a league with relegation system is fine, but relegating and advancing 8 out of 24 players after 5 BO3 sets feels completely off and will result in potentially very good players getting relegated due to very few games off if you're in a tough bracket.

The point Is that having a good relegation system is crucial for leagues to work properply. Yes you have to put enough relegation spots to allow lower league players to emerge, but too much spots might result in advancing too many players that can't keep up with the higher tier, resulting in a lot of 3-0 that lower the overall quality of the tournament.

In addition, i don't want to disrespect gold league players, but with few exceptions most of them have never been in S-tier tournament main events and most have never get close to that level. With current system, some of them will advance just by beating player of their same level in few BO3s which in my opinion Is not enough to guarantee they will be able to compete with platinum players. Trust me, I hope this league will be an opportunity for top 30-40 players to step up and improve, but I just don't think that getting 5-8th in gold Is enough to guarantee that those player will be able to compete with most Platinum players, so I think an extra step needs to be added.

 

[warownia]

its not for me bro its just the system as a whole. Mbl almost couldnt get into plat league. Heart didnt get into gold league even...

Fair solution would be as @DracKeN Suggested a qualifier.

 

[DracKeN]

Fair solution would be as @DracKeN Suggested a qualifier.

I want to clarify that was mainly the idea assuming players weren't given too much flexibility. If admins are fine with players not playing exactly 1 set/week, but sometimes skip a week or two and play those sets later, I think the system doesn't need a qualifier from season 2. I think there should be a qualifier for the 1st season for Platinum, especially because of the RBW Legacy spot.

 

[LowEloNobody]

its not for me bro its just the system as a whole. Mbl almost couldnt get into plat league. Heart didnt get into gold league even...

Hearttt plays tourneys?

 

[oozkan]

its not for me bro its just the system as a whole. Mbl almost couldnt get into plat league. Heart didnt get into gold league even...

Heartt is a good player but I am sorry he doesn't deserve to be there. I understand that you feel sympathy towards your friend though.

That's a good example of why we need professionals who doesn't put friends at first place in such positions. (this sentence is not related to Hera)