This has to be changed! ---SPOILER---

[AkeNo]

where was this discussion BEFORE the event? Yeah right. Stop putting stuff like that after the fact like you knew it all along and would've obviously done it better, lmao.

 

[shm0wt]

Honestly like I get that there's a legit concern buried in here somewhere, but I feel like noone would be making a big deal about this if it wasn't this particular player who ended up losing the set.

 

Honestly like I get that there's a legit concern buried in here somewhere, but I feel like noone would be making a big deal about this if it wasn't this particular player who ended up losing the set.

I have just watched a bit until the Semi-Finals, which particular player do you mean?

 

[shm0wt]

Spoiler: HC4 results and player IDentities

I'm talking about Ivaylo aka The Viper, who lost his semifinal after playing less home maps than his opponent (John the Fearless aka Hera). I say this as someone who loves Viper as a player and would have loved to see him win that set. I just find his fans constant rules lawyering on his behalf somewhat exhausting.

 

[Giuseppe551]

It seems to me that T90 and co. want this to be both a fun gimmicky event AND a prestigious tournament but the reality is it cannot be both. Between the aforementioned home map issue, the random seeding, and the server situation (playing sets on the wrong server in a $90k tournament just to conceal the opponent's identity, really?) it's hard to think of HC in the same way as KOTD or NAC. I personally wish this was a $5k tournament and T90 would host some other big 1v1 tournament, but that's just me.

 

[slixgotcha]

It seems to me that T90 and co. want this to be both a fun gimmicky event AND a prestigious tournament but the reality is it cannot be both. Between the aforementioned home map issue, the random seeding, and the server situation (playing sets on the wrong server in a $90k tournament just to conceal the opponent's identity, really?) it's hard to think of HC in the same way as KOTD or NAC. I personally wish this was a $5k tournament and T90 would host some other big 1v1 tournament, but that's just me.

It's a money maker, that simple. Just do the math on it, and you'll quickly understand why preserving the gimmick (and in turn massive viewership numbers) are far more important than making this the most competitive, or fair tournament possible.

T90 ends today with 25,241 subs, per twitchtracker.com. That puts him #17 on *all* of Twitch (which is awesome, and he's sure put in a hell of a lot of hard work to get there). He's donating $1 per sub that came in during March (I think, maybe overall, somebody can clarify maybe) to the prize pool. Even if that's $1 of every sub he has, and he's only getting $2.5 per sub (it's my understanding that the top content creators on Twitch get a higher cut, but I can't confirm that), he's still hauling in $37,861.5 this month on the subs alone after kicking in the dollar a sub, and that's not counting the donations, recurring Youtube revenue, whatever. And the best part? Microsoft puts up the remainder of the prize pool, and $15k of it is taken out to pay the rest of the tournament staff. So as you can see, this is an extremely lucrative event for the streamer, far more so than any of the players involved.

From my quick analysis of the Twitch numbers, this is t90's biggest revenue driver of the year - it's like Black Friday for retail stores in the US. It's also very good for the AOE2 community as a whole, because the gimmick sucks in a lot of casuals that are less interested in game play, and more interested in being surprised and the grand reveal. Microsoft is also winning huge, as it brings new people into the game. To be quite honest, at this point, it doesn't even matter if the players know who they're playing, and I'm not even sure why they try to hard to keep it a secret from the players. It really just matters that the viewing public doesn't know to keep the show working!

There is a lot of money in streaming AOE2 these days, way more than in playing the game at a competitive level. For a player like Viper, he's less concerned with the $X,xxx he missed out on by not winning the tournament, and more concerned about the new viewers / subs he's missing out on by not winning. The money is in the streaming! It's just like pro sports - the TV networks broadcasting the games make far more money than any individual player.

 

[JUDAS]

Wtf!!, how can this happen in a premiere tournament funded by MS?, this is really unfair to one player, given one player two more HMs in a bo7 is just ridiculous.

 

[amazing_knight]

This was a really really silly rule and it is unfortunate that so much hard work and efforts that T90 and his team have put in will get somewhat overshadowed by this oversight. But this does deserve attention.

In general, all tournament organisers must always keep fairness above other aspects of the tournament such as the fun or commercial aspects. Even if that makes the tournament a little boring.

PS - Really loved the tournament. Hope these oversights won't happen in the future.

 

[XDDXOXO]

where was this discussion BEFORE the event? Yeah right. Stop putting stuff like that after the fact like you knew it all along and would've obviously done it better, lmao.

as if everyone reads the rules.. you need to see it play out and it there was a complaint after previous HC, too.

Hidden identities or other factors are also not an excuse because you deny one player his advantage to play maps he likes/is good at/prepares, which is unfair no matter who he is and if he wins or loses.

 

[TwilliverOngenbone]

where was this discussion BEFORE the event? Yeah right. Stop putting stuff like that after the fact like you knew it all along and would've obviously done it better, lmao.

Surely the tournament organisers have the responsibility to read the rules more closely than viewers?

 

[Comet777]

Even thought I personally prefer that

Spoiler: Spoiler

Hera beat Viper.

, not like this. There is no way that the settings should allow for someone to get 3 to 1 homemaps and this is a horrible oversight from the organisers.

And people will say that this isn't a big deal, but given how close this set was and the expectation that the winner of the John the Fearless set would win the final, this is massive. If it had been 2 homemaps each then there is a strong chance that the set would have gone the other way - which you could argue cost the person who only got 1 homepage $10,000. $10,000!!!! That is massive and potentially life changing. It can't happen again and it does sour the win somewhat.

 

[Comet777]

It's a money maker, that simple. Just do the math on it, and you'll quickly understand why preserving the gimmick (and in turn massive viewership numbers) are far more important than making this the most competitive, or fair tournament possible.

T90 ends today with 25,241 subs, per twitchtracker.com. That puts him #17 on *all* of Twitch (which is awesome, and he's sure put in a hell of a lot of hard work to get there). He's donating $1 per sub that came in during March (I think, maybe overall, somebody can clarify maybe) to the prize pool. Even if that's $1 of every sub he has, and he's only getting $2.5 per sub (it's my understanding that the top content creators on Twitch get a higher cut, but I can't confirm that), he's still hauling in $37,861.5 this month on the subs alone after kicking in the dollar a sub, and that's not counting the donations, recurring Youtube revenue, whatever. And the best part? Microsoft puts up the remainder of the prize pool, and $15k of it is taken out to pay the rest of the tournament staff. So as you can see, this is an extremely lucrative event for the streamer, far more so than any of the players involved.

From my quick analysis of the Twitch numbers, this is t90's biggest revenue driver of the year - it's like Black Friday for retail stores in the US. It's also very good for the AOE2 community as a whole, because the gimmick sucks in a lot of casuals that are less interested in game play, and more interested in being surprised and the grand reveal. Microsoft is also winning huge, as it brings new people into the game. To be quite honest, at this point, it doesn't even matter if the players know who they're playing, and I'm not even sure why they try to hard to keep it a secret from the players. It really just matters that the viewing public doesn't know to keep the show working!

There is a lot of money in streaming AOE2 these days, way more than in playing the game at a competitive level. For a player like Viper, he's less concerned with the $X,xxx he missed out on by not winning the tournament, and more concerned about the new viewers / subs he's missing out on by not winning. The money is in the streaming! It's just like pro sports - the TV networks broadcasting the games make far more money than any individual player.

Exactly right... well thought out comment that is right on the money (no pun intended). T90 did try to drive the prizepool up by getting people to sub, however it wasn't hard to see this as a blatant money grab. If people wanted to contribute to the prizepool then donate 100% of it to the prizepool, so the players get all the money (instead of T90 pocketing most of it). Having followed T90 for over 4 years now, I was honestly very disappointed by the way he conducted himself around the subs and prizepool, and it is for this reason that I no longer sub to him and haven't for a year now. Yes Hidden Cup is a fantastic event and very entertaining, and undoubtedly the biggest event on the aoe2 calendar, however KOTD is still the premier event and Hidden Cup is unfortunately become a bit of a shameless cash grab (in my personal opinion).

At the end of the day, I am happy for it to continue as it is a fantastic chance for the players to get well compensated for all their hard work (dogao $3k+ and he didn't win a game or have to qualify). Just don't make it sound like people are subbing to support the prize pool when in reality, they are subbing to fill your own pockets - because so many people have very little idea of how twitch works.

 

[MadeByJoe]

It's a money maker, that simple. Just do the math on it, and you'll quickly understand why preserving the gimmick (and in turn massive viewership numbers) are far more important than making this the most competitive, or fair tournament possible.

T90 ends today with 25,241 subs, per twitchtracker.com. That puts him #17 on *all* of Twitch (which is awesome, and he's sure put in a hell of a lot of hard work to get there). He's donating $1 per sub that came in during March (I think, maybe overall, somebody can clarify maybe) to the prize pool. Even if that's $1 of every sub he has, and he's only getting $2.5 per sub (it's my understanding that the top content creators on Twitch get a higher cut, but I can't confirm that), he's still hauling in $37,861.5 this month on the subs alone after kicking in the dollar a sub, and that's not counting the donations, recurring Youtube revenue, whatever. And the best part? Microsoft puts up the remainder of the prize pool, and $15k of it is taken out to pay the rest of the tournament staff. So as you can see, this is an extremely lucrative event for the streamer, far more so than any of the players involved.

From my quick analysis of the Twitch numbers, this is t90's biggest revenue driver of the year - it's like Black Friday for retail stores in the US. It's also very good for the AOE2 community as a whole, because the gimmick sucks in a lot of casuals that are less interested in game play, and more interested in being surprised and the grand reveal. Microsoft is also winning huge, as it brings new people into the game. To be quite honest, at this point, it doesn't even matter if the players know who they're playing, and I'm not even sure why they try to hard to keep it a secret from the players. It really just matters that the viewing public doesn't know to keep the show working!

Hidden Cup and NAC used to break the viewer records each time they happened, so I think the big viewer numbers aren't because of the gimmick but just because the whole scene grew and with T90 having one of the biggest AOE2 streams on Twitch, every tourney he casts (in a way like HC) would blow up. So I don't think it has to be a Hidden Cup to bring in the money, it could also be... normal Cup 11 Maybe I'm wrong with that take.

As for my part. I like the Hidden Cup, but not as the biggest competition of the year, especially when we don't have NAC. Because this leaves us with a tourney with random seeding and an arabia only tourney. And even with NAC, there are not as many entries, some players don't have the time to go to germany and sometimes someone parties to hard. Which is clearly their own fault, but still takes away from the competition.
What I miss is a big, normal, mixed maps, no gimmicks event. I don't think we had one since ECL.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Hidden Cup wasn't invented to become the most competetive tournament. The purpose of this tourney is to entertain biewers and grow host's channel.

 

[Degaussed]

I think KOTD WOULD become the #1 event if it wasn't just Arabia.

 

[Tree]

Hidden Cup wasn't invented to become the most competetive tournament. The purpose of this tourney is to entertain biewers and grow host's channel.

I agree. HC was meant to be a hype-oriented, gimmicky and entertaining event, which T90 and his team absolutely delivered.

Also, players knew what they were in for and it just so happened one player gets 3 home maps. It's unlucky but agreed settings. Like the Mangrove Shallows Cup, many doesn't like the setting/maps, but if you sign up you go by its rules.

 

[Tarsiz]

Honestly, I feel sometimes people forget the "meme" settings of this tournament, this is a show for the viewers and these settings are fine for it. But I wouldn't conclude about who is the better (general) player because of it.

What? 11
Sure it's a show for the viewers (isn't that the goal of any tournament anyway?) but I think the amount of preparation the players obviously put in, the level of play in the games and how impressively high the overall level of the top 16 speaks volumes for the quality of the competition. To win this you have to be the best and the most prepared.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

To win this you have to be the best and the most prepared.

Indeed, you have the ability to use 3 of ur HM compared to 1 of the opp to win so clearly u need a good preparation.

 

[zatekusen]

Exactly right... well thought out comment that is right on the money (no pun intended). T90 did try to drive the prizepool up by getting people to sub, however it wasn't hard to see this as a blatant money grab. If people wanted to contribute to the prizepool then donate 100% of it to the prizepool, so the players get all the money (instead of T90 pocketing most of it). Having followed T90 for over 4 years now, I was honestly very disappointed by the way he conducted himself around the subs and prizepool, and it is for this reason that I no longer sub to him and haven't for a year now. Yes Hidden Cup is a fantastic event and very entertaining, and undoubtedly the biggest event on the aoe2 calendar, however KOTD is still the premier event and Hidden Cup is unfortunately become a bit of a shameless cash grab (in my personal opinion).

At the end of the day, I am happy for it to continue as it is a fantastic chance for the players to get well compensated for all their hard work (dogao $3k+ and he didn't win a game or have to qualify). Just don't make it sound like people are subbing to support the prize pool when in reality, they are subbing to fill your own pockets - because so many people have very little idea of how twitch works.

Twitch subs only give you like 2.5 or 3 usd per sub, and then after income tax it may well be under 2$. So split it half for the player, half for the host is fair imo.

And by being subs you are not only supporting the player, you're also getting the sub perk like T90 emo (which is very good), and the most important part is no more of those damn ads while watching the vods! I do subs to T90 times to times, but on HC week it's a must, because I watch most of the matches on Twitch vods, and the ads is obnoxious. Seriously you get 3 consecutive ads, 45s each, every 10 minutes!

So of my 5$: 1$ for the player, 1-1.5$ for the host, 0.5$ for uncle Sam, 2-2.5$ for Twitch... I think it's fair with all the benefits I got.

 

[AkeNo]

Surely the tournament organisers have the responsibility to read the rules more closely than viewers?

it's not about the viewers, but if you sign up to a tourney and don't read the rules it's on you. If you read the rules and you don't say anything it's on you.
If there is no player openly complaining about this, why would the viewers care?
If the players are complaining in private to their friends, how should the organizer know/ why care?
You guys act all shocked but if you actually cared you would start this thread BEFOREHAND. Also like someone said this thread wouldn't even exist if it hadn't been viper eliminated.
And most importantly, why do you guys think you're talking for the players? If they want to/ feel like they have to, they will voice their opinion.

 

What? 11
Sure it's a show for the viewers (isn't that the goal of any tournament anyway?) but I think the amount of preparation the players obviously put in, the level of play in the games and how impressively high the overall level of the top 16 speaks volumes for the quality of the competition. To win this you have to be the best and the most prepared.

I didn't say that a player doesn't have to be good to win with these settings, so I totally agree with you here. And yes, a tournament should show for the moment, if its settings are designed around competitive play (less randomness, fair brackets and settings, etc.), who is the best player within the corresponding circumstances/settings (or the best in adapting to these settings). Also this year indeed I haven't had the feeling, that players were meming around too much to obscure their own identity. So I didn't say anything against "the best player within these settings won".

 

[shm0wt]

Exactly right... well thought out comment that is right on the money (no pun intended). T90 did try to drive the prizepool up by getting people to sub, however it wasn't hard to see this as a blatant money grab. If people wanted to contribute to the prizepool then donate 100% of it to the prizepool, so the players get all the money (instead of T90 pocketing most of it). Having followed T90 for over 4 years now, I was honestly very disappointed by the way he conducted himself around the subs and prizepool, and it is for this reason that I no longer sub to him and haven't for a year now. Yes Hidden Cup is a fantastic event and very entertaining, and undoubtedly the biggest event on the aoe2 calendar, however KOTD is still the premier event and Hidden Cup is unfortunately become a bit of a shameless cash grab (in my personal opinion).

Yeah what a shameless cash grab to work really hard at something for years, to give your audience countless hours of free entertainment, and then ask people to support you financially for doing it.

At the end of the day, I am happy for it to continue as it is a fantastic chance for the players to get well compensated for all their hard work

Happy for players to be compensated for showing up and losing every game, but not for anyone else who worked equally hard on the event to be compensated for their time and effort apparently.

Half of the subs that came in were probably Bezos bucks anyway, is it really so outrageous for t90 to ask that in donating to the prize pool people also give something to support his channel and the various other costs associated with running the event?

 

[SmashFascists]

Beside all the Drama, can't we just accept, that this was an oversight easily fixed by playing the forced maps as "single games". So if Player A loses game 3 and game 4 is on a forced map game 5 would be HM of Player A even if he would have won game 4? So it wouldnt be unfair. It's just a single fix and could be taken into consideration when planing future tournaments with forced maps.

I don't think Viper lost because of that, but it would be easy to eliminate any claims by fixing it AND it would be more fair anyway.

 

[nimanoe]

Vipers view on the issue:

 

[Dauty]

The way you wrote this put me off initially, you just sound unnecessarily pompous and dramatic. But I do agree with what you are saying, it's so frustrating that something that is so obviously unfair, albeit probably not that extremely impactful, was decided on. Kind of unbelievable really.

I don't see how this can be called "not that extremely impactful." The series went to the decider game. One player had two more home maps than the other player. The winner of the tournament won $10,000 more than a semi-finalist. The format was hugely impactful.

It isn't the job of the viewer to catch this beforehand. You do expect the organizer to have some foresight, though, when the prize pool and viewer numbers are as substantial as in HC4. It was shockingly poorly done, and I don't have a preference for Viper.