The_Dragonstar toxic behaviour

[oozkan]

I haven't heard about Nili and Hera drama, is it possible to share the location of that drama? fetching popcorn.

Here it is. Always a pleasure to help drama lovers.

 

[oozkan]

Far too little nudity here for a French movie.

Haha that's a good one. Indeed, Hoang or Dragonstar should show a bit skin. Then we can get something at Cannes...

 

[IYIyTh]

We need to community fund drama grudge matches.

Hera vs. Nili (with 5% handicap)

Dracken vs. Hoang

Dragonstar vs. Hoang

BigScoob vs. Matador


None of the paltry "40/60 split," showmatches that are so common these days, winner take all.

I welcome a return to the "1v1 me bro," era to help settle drama squabbles instead of hiding behind youtube videos and passive aggressive astro-turfed streams.

 

[oozkan]

We need to community fund drama grudge matches.

Hera vs. Nili (with 5% handicap)

If they meet in AOE4, community don't need to fund. I am sure MS will chip in.

 

[Snizl]

We need to community fund drama grudge matches.

Hera vs. Nili (with 5% handicap)

Dracken vs. Hoang

Dragonstar vs. Hoang

BigScoob vs. Matador


None of the paltry "40/60 split," showmatches that are so common these days, winner take all.

I welcome a return to the "1v1 me bro," era to help settle drama squabbles instead of hiding behind youtube videos and passive aggressive astro-turfed streams.

Why not just have a drama tournament. 16 participants, qualified are the involved parties of the top 16 dramas from the past x years (do we have enough since the start of DE, or should we extend it to earlier?). Seeding obviously based on your personal ranking of the drama.

 

[IYIyTh]

Why not just have a drama tournament. 16 participants, qualified are the involved parties of the top 16 dramas from the past x years (do we have enough since the start of DE, or should we extend it to earlier?). Seeding obviously based on your personal ranking of the drama.

Eh, this feels like any other tournament though at the point.

We need more personal drama. St4rk vs. whoever he accused of stream sniping, etc.

Diluting everything into a run of the mill tournament leaves something to be desired.

I would be happy to do a personal ranking of the potential showmatches provided with individual clips detailing each individual potential grudge match, then have the community vote on which drama grudge match they'd prefer to see. The two combatants either publicly assent/do not agree to the match (backing out as if they had been challenged to a duel.) If they back out we just go down the list.

 

[Tarsiz]

We need to community fund drama grudge matches.

Hera vs. Nili (with 5% handicap)

Dracken vs. Hoang

Dragonstar vs. Hoang

BigScoob vs. Matador


None of the paltry "40/60 split," showmatches that are so common these days, winner take all.

I welcome a return to the "1v1 me bro," era to help settle drama squabbles instead of hiding behind youtube videos and passive aggressive astro-turfed streams.

We can add Badboy vs Influenza (Flu has 10% handicap, but has to stream his POV on twitch or the Vietnamese discord without delay).

 

[King_Boo]

We can add Badboy vs Influenza (Flu has 10% handicap, but has to stream his POV on twitch or the Vietnamese discord without delay).

Flu has to stream the Vietnamese discord? Seems kinda sus man

 

[Snizl]

Eh, this feels like any other tournament though at the point.

We need more personal drama. St4rk vs. whoever he accused of stream sniping, etc.

Diluting everything into a run of the mill tournament leaves something to be desired.

I would be happy to do a personal ranking of the potential showmatches provided with individual clips detailing each individual potential grudge match, then have the community vote on which drama grudge match they'd prefer to see. The two combatants either publicly assent/do not agree to the match (backing out as if they had been challenged to a duel.) If they back out we just go down the list.

You could do the initial seeding based on the direct drama, and have other people in the group, that did contribute to that drama/voiced their opinion for/against one of the participants, or had drama with the person as well. I mean Nili won't be the only one Hera has had drama with i.e.
The finals will be a FFA vs Ertug.
But a series of showmatches would be a good idea as well.
I think it also goes without saying, that all maps will have to generate with two forward boars, sheep have to spawn based on AoC code, unpausing and general BM are encouraged and all participants have to stream their PoV without spec delay. Of course stream sniping will be forbidden, but no punishments will ever be enforced for breaking any rule.

 

[EricDolphy]

Please consider removing the word "cancer" from your vocabulary to denote something you don't like guys.

I've watched hundreds (if not more) of Hoang's games and never saw him pausing or trying to waste his opponents' time.
I think everyone knows that, so he probably paused because he really needed to and there's no possible justification to not respect it.
No one likes pauses, but they should be respected unless you feel your opponent is trolling you, or they are way too long (more than 2 mins without an answer?).

In my opinion players should not be blamed for doing anything the game allows, even if it's annoying to play against. So if you don't like laming, walling, market abuse, maybe there's a part of aoe you don't really like?

Civ picking is a different thing because it's not part of the game and can't be prevented because of DE matchmaking. But it's part of a flawed system in which you can't even pick the map you want to play, so I also feel it's unfair to bash civ pickers for just using a feature of the platform.
All of these issues wouldn't exist if you could choose who you want to play and on which settings.

 

[deadmeatnoob]

Please consider removing the word "cancer" from your vocabulary to denote something you don't like guys.

I've watched hundreds (if not more) of Hoang's games and never saw him pausing or trying to waste his opponents' time.
I think everyone knows that, so he probably paused because he really needed to and there's no possible justification to not respect it.
No one likes pauses, but they should be respected unless you feel your opponent is trolling you, or they are way too long (more than 2 mins without an answer?).

In my opinion players should not be blamed for doing anything the game allows, even if it's annoying to play against. So if you don't like laming, walling, market abuse, maybe there's a part of aoe you don't really like?

Civ picking is a different thing because it's not part of the game and can't be prevented because of DE matchmaking. But it's part of a flawed system in which you can't even pick the map you want to play, so I also feel it's unfair to bash civ pickers for just using a feature of the platform.
All of these issues wouldn't exist if you could choose who you want to play and on which settings.

I believe they call it cancer because they are afraid that it will spread. The idea is that people will only do one strat and try to win the game, which might make it less fun for others.
Also MOST pros pick maps they want to play. There are maps they dont like playing and so they ban them. draken loves arena, hera & viper love arabia. Hoang takes it one step further. He picks the civ along with the map. He plays the strat he think is best suited to win.

 

[SotallyTober123]

I've watched hundreds (if not more) of Hoang's games and never saw him pausing or trying to waste his opponents' time.

I agree with everything that you say except that Hoang doesn't waste time for others. If you ask any top player who plays against him, they will tell you that it's absolutely a waste of time playing him. It might be fun and challenging the first 3 times when you face FC Mongol lame push but it becomes irritating when you face it each and every time. You know exactly what he is doing and what he is going to do. There's absolutely nothing you learn about the game in the half an hour you play against him. Whether you win or lose, it's absolutely useless. And multiply that by 3 times a day, 365 days a year because he's always online. I don't think many players have a problem with laming, walling or market abuse. In fact, some of the best tornament games have involved these strategies. Drafting in tournaments is essentially civ picking. What is annoying for most is facing the same strat again and again and again. I remember Villese preparing for a tournament in the next 2 hours and getting Hoang in ranked ladder two times in a row. He won both times but was pissed off because it ruined his practice.

Should Hoang stop playing how he plays? Absolutely not. Why should he? He's under no obligation to make it enjoyable for other players. The best option is for players who don't want to play him is to ignore him using the dashboard.

I guess the problem is there's a huge perspective difference between how viewers see Hoang's game and how players see Hoang's game. Viewers tend to dismiss players' perspective because it's entertaining to watch Hoang.

 

[felix.feroc]

He's under no obligation to make it enjoyable for other players.

This is where I think there is some disagreement with the feelings of many players and why they are more sympathetic to The Dragonstar in this situation. The attitude of GLHF is important to maintaining a healthy scene, and Hoang's attitude is sharply in opposition to it. Because of this, there is a dearth of outrage for someone refusing him standard courtesy, as his presence is a net negative. I think many believe that players have a certain moral duty to not make other players miserable and waste their time.

In my opinion players should not be blamed for doing anything the game allows

Um, isn't immediately unpausing allowed by the game?

 

[Hunyadi_]

We need to community fund drama grudge matches.

Hera vs. Nili (with 5% handicap)

Dracken vs. Hoang

Dragonstar vs. Hoang

BigScoob vs. Matador


None of the paltry "40/60 split," showmatches that are so common these days, winner take all.

I welcome a return to the "1v1 me bro," era to help settle drama squabbles instead of hiding behind youtube videos and passive aggressive astro-turfed streams.

Don't forget Memb vs MBL. $300 showmatch sponsored by MembTV

 

[IYIyTh]

I really am curious -- pro and non pro's advocating dodging in this thread alike. Perhaps tournament admins will take notice and start banning pro's who conduct such rating manipulation.

 

[IYIyTh]

This is where I think there is some disagreement with the feelings of many players and why they are more sympathetic to The Dragonstar in this situation. The attitude of GLHF is important to maintaining a healthy scene, and Hoang's attitude is sharply in opposition to it. Because of this, there is a dearth of outrage for someone refusing him standard courtesy, as his presence is a net negative. I think many believe that players have a certain moral duty to not make other players miserable and waste their time.


Um, isn't immediately unpausing allowed by the game?

This opinion isn't (even close to) universal, and is contradictory.
There are no rules as to what you can and can't do, and for good reason:

I don't expect my opponent to not kill a vil sent walling before loom with their forward scout.
I don't expect my opponent to give sheep back that I failed to scout.
I don't expect an opponent to not harass forward berries or to not use m@a with Bulgarians because of the guaranteed damage it will do.

It's insulting that my opponent would not do any and everything within the confines of the game they could to defeat me in battle, imo.

Viper himself famously would not lame -- unless he knew his opponent was pushing deer, thus greedy and deserving to be lamed. IMO that courtesy not even need apply.

Clowns prefer closed maps, while Arabia plebs prefer making their own palisade arena's and turning open maps into closed maps.

I find Drushing extremely boring and insulting to the concept of the game, dancing with 2-3 militia and a scout around an opponents res in Dark age and people considering it peak intellectual strategy is probably the dumbest thing I have watched on pro streams. Dancing with archers to manipulate accuracy has been a deciding factor in most pro tournament games. (Team games often boil down to arbs vs. dancing knights/cavalier/paladin.)

If we started banning every aspect of the game individuals felt gimmicky there would be no nuance.


Then the supposition that "no one learns/gains anything," would actually be true.

How boring.

--

Conversely, if one truly believes in a "loving and warm community," there should be some aspect of "two wrongs don't make a right." I think many would take issue with unpausing who may not necessarily have the same opinion as you on laming. Much to the chagrin of many tearful players, laming has been accepted by a great majority as part of the game, regardless of they prefer and/or enjoy its employment. It's hard to take seriously the supposition that there is a superior way to play the game and then on the other hand excuse other behavior.

One can not play Jesus and the Romans simultaneously.


People looking for casual games have an option other than the ranked ladder in the way of the lobby or "casual game," feature... But even then there are no rules.

 

[siestes]

Should we have less pauses allowed per game (maybe 5 instead of 10) but the first time a player pauses in the game there is a safe period (maybe 1 min) where other players can't unpause

 

[IYIyTh]

Should we have less pauses allowed per game (maybe 5 instead of 10) but the first time a player pauses in the game there is a safe period (maybe 1 min) where other players can't unpause

Nah, current system is perfectly fine. The suggested change would only lead to additional griefing when players are in a lost position. There should be no codified/mandated pause.

 

[Kellar]

Unpausing is a part of the game just like laming is?

 

[NuclearPasta]

It might be fun and challenging the first 3 times when you face FC Mongol lame push but it becomes irritating when you face it each and every time. You know exactly what he is doing and what he is going to do.

Yeah, I'm glad other pros would never resort to using the exact same strategy whenever possible, though it's a shame drush FC never really caught on in the meta.

 

[SotallyTober123]

Yeah, I'm glad other pros would never resort to using the exact same strategy whenever possible, though it's a shame drush FC never really caught on in the meta.

Sure dude. Playing the same civ, same strategy hundreds and probably thousands of times is equivalent to a drush FC (across all civs) that statistics show is used less than 20% by pros and less than 7% across all elos. I know it's the same.

Arabia players troll Arena players for clown strategies and Arena players troll Arabia players for drush FC. However, no one exploits the same civ and same strat hundreds of times.

As I said before, I support Hoang with whatever he likes to play but comparing him with other pros doing same strategy is kind of missing the point.

 

[IYIyTh]

Sure dude. Playing the same civ, same strategy hundreds and probably thousands of times is equivalent to a drush FC (across all civs) that statistics show is used less than 20% by pros and less than 7% across all elos. I know it's the same.

Arabia players troll Arena players for clown strategies and Arena players troll Arabia players for drush FC. However, no one exploits the same civ and same strat hundreds of times.View attachment 203282

As I said before, I support Hoang with whatever he likes to play but comparing him with other pros doing same strategy is kind of missing the point.

What is your point? You don't owe your opponent to play into their strengths.

It would be considered bad strategy to do so. If you infuriate or get in your opponents mind so that they THINK you're going to perform a certain strategy ( a la Hoang,) and perform another -- even beter.

 

[NuclearPasta]

Sure dude. Playing the same civ, same strategy hundreds and probably thousands of times is equivalent to a drush FC (across all civs) that statistics show is used less than 20% by pros and less than 7% across all elos. I know it's the same.

Arabia players troll Arena players for clown strategies and Arena players troll Arabia players for drush FC. However, no one exploits the same civ and same strat hundreds of times.View attachment 203282

As I said before, I support Hoang with whatever he likes to play but comparing him with other pros doing same strategy is kind of missing the point.

What patch does your graph take into account when comparing openings? Drush FC isn't common currently but if you just go back a year and a half ago it comprised most of the games at higher levels for certain players.

At the end of the day all you can really criticize Hoang for in regards to his playstyle is picking civ. Players like MBL used to lame every other game, and no one's ever gotten mad at a pro for opening scouts as Franks or archers as Britons despite them probably doing it thousands of times before.

My comment wasn't meant to be that serious anyway, I just found it funny that other pros playing the exact same strat or opening with certain civs is totally fine, but only if they're not civ picking.

 

[SotallyTober123]

What is your point? You don't owe your opponent to play into their strengths.

It would be considered bad strategy to do so. If you infuriate or get in your opponents mind so that they THINK you're going to perform a certain strategy ( a la Hoang,) and perform another -- even beter.

The point was the different perspectives of watching Hoang play (entertaining) and actually playing Hoang (waste of time) . Jordan played 3 back to back games against Hoang today and made some interesting observations. Do watch the VOD if possible.

I don't think I have anything useful to share on this. I genuinely feel this was a one off incident between two good players that didn't need the drama but nice that it led to an interesting discussion. Best of luck to Hoang and Dragonstar.

 

[deijryn]

Should we have less pauses allowed per game (maybe 5 instead of 10) but the first time a player pauses in the game there is a safe period (maybe 1 min) where other players can't unpause

On another game, the system is like this: each player has 2 pauses and opponent can unpause after 30 sec,
and it work well