AOE-II DE The imbalanced broken cheap Eagles food cost

[MAE_JO]

For more than 20 years the imbalanced broken Eagles food cost remain the same with no chnages with a broken cheap cost that it is only 20F, 50G. It is really weird how a unit like Eagles have a laughable 20F cost for a long time making the fair play not available and gives a HUGE advantages for the meso player. Eagles is that unit who have like 4 roles at once, they are knights, they are light cavs, they are tanks to arrows and they have resistence against monks and kill siege super fast and they are so so so cheap dirt and they don't have trash counters.

The cheap dirt broken food cost gives unfair advantages the mesos players. Once you hit castle for example you can super easy start flooding them from like 4 or even 5 barracks and your eco will be fine becasue their laughable food cost is only 20 and the total is just 70.

To bring the fair play and to reduce this huge unfair advantage for the meso player and to bring the better balance, imo the cheap dirt Eagles food cost should go up directly to 30F without any compensation (it still cheap), or 35F, 45G (still so cheap). It was a failed cost to give this unit this cost from the beginning which makes the balance way worse.

So I just wanted to discuss this with you and ask you what do you think about Eagles cost?

 

[SouFire]

The eagles were created by the greatest minds of ensemble studios, it was an unit in the middle of light cav and knights without their strength and durability, the unit was perfectly balanced until cysion and co decided to create a castle age upgrade for the eagles, but even with that thingy the pathing on DE is so bad that eagles can be taken 1 by 1 with xbow micro and there is nothing they can do, the unit still loses to knights and with the introduction of supplies most civs can counter eagles with ease.

So eagles are in a weird spot, only good at castle age with huge numbers, strong at early imperial age with elite upgrade and armor but completely trash against most units in post imperial age and lets not even mention them during feudal age.

If you are having an issue with eagles it must be a problem adapting, cause the unit by itself is weak and counterable in all ages.

 

[Uselessaurus Rex]

Eagles cost and balance is fine. I think the annoying thing about them in the early castle age spam, so maybe increase food cost by 15 and make supplies apply to them.

That way the balance remains the same, but with less early spam.

 

[MAE_JO]

The eagles were created by the greatest minds of ensemble studios, it was an unit in the middle of light cav and knights without their strength and durability, the unit was perfectly balanced until cysion and co decided to create a castle age upgrade for the eagles, but even with that thingy the pathing on DE is so bad that eagles can be taken 1 by 1 with xbow micro and there is nothing they can do, the unit still loses to knights and with the introduction of supplies most civs can counter eagles with ease.

So eagles are in a weird spot, only good at castle age with huge numbers, strong at early imperial age with elite upgrade and armor but completely trash against most units in post imperial age and lets not even mention them during feudal age.

If you are having an issue with eagles it must be a problem adapting, cause the unit by itself is weak and counterable in all ages.

The unit is not weak at all nor easy to deal with. They do very well with against everyting. I am really surprised of what you said. Can be killed by xbows 1v1 too?! Huh?! Maybe you got me wrong, I am talking especially about Eagle warrior in castle age with their cheap dirt flood from 5 rax with Hoang's eco style. The unit is far to be balanced and their cheap dirt food cost needs a nerf for sure.

 

[MAE_JO]

Eagles cost and balance is fine. I think the annoying thing about them in the early castle age spam, so maybe increase food cost by 15 and make supplies apply to them.

That way the balance remains the same, but with less early spam.

No won't solve the problem at all, supplies got a buff and it became cheaper and you can research it while up to feudal.

 

[Uselessaurus Rex]

No won't solve the problem at all, supplies got a buff and it became cheaper and you can research it while up to feudal.

Well I think the problem is you think there's a big issue to solve; but like most things in AOE2, the devils in the detail, and things don't need a massive change.

I think a small delay will help to stem the initial spam by a minute or so, but keep the potency of the unit.

 

[MAE_JO]

Well I think the problem is you think there's a big issue to solve

Because there is! A 20F cost for ANY unit in the game is not a good thing at all and not balanced. A unit like Eagle warrior that play 4 roles at once and cost 20F is not a balanced thing at all, it is clearly a broken and unfair advantage to play against. If you don't see the problem this doesn't mean there is no problem.

 

[Uselessaurus Rex]

Because there is! A 20F cost for ANY unit in the game is not a good thing at all and not balanced. A unit like Eagle warrior that play 4 roles at once and cost 20F is not a balanced thing at all, it is clearly a broken and unfair advantage to play against. If you don't see the problem this doesn't mean there is no problem.

I didn't mean to dismiss you, but I guess I just rate it as a bit initially unbalanced. But even 3-4 mins into castle age, there's enough time to react, in my opinion.

 

[kalpit00]

the pathing on DE is so bad that eagles can be taken 1 by 1 with xbow micro and there is nothing they can do, the unit still loses to knights and with the introduction of supplies most civs can counter eagles with ease.

Lol how about i give you one of the strongest knight civs like Franks with an amazing opening and you give me a meso civ with 10 on food and 2 golds inside my base? I will not only likely have a mass from feudal age but also outproduce your knight numbers in less than 2 minutes. Eagle cost is broken, it definitely needs to be increased (25f/50g seems like a good start to see how they feel.

I disagree wholeheartedly the argument that eagles can be dealt with xbow micro. Eagles have mobility so you will never engage unless you have the numbers, you can counter attack and raid, spread them around every single time, and a simple mangonel will scare away a whole mass of 20-30 xbows while you destroy his base with eagle raids.

Longswords are "the" hard counter to eagles, agreed, and that is why civs like Malians, Celts, Teutons, Japanese, Slavs can keep up with mesos, because of that longsword transition, and even than meso civs have an easy transition back to ranged units (you already have a ranges from feudal age). Or you can add siege (at the highest level, infantry gets countered by mangonels or even monks in lower numbers where micro battle dictates the game)

Lastly, knights - probably the unit of choice to deal with eagles. Even then, monks are a great counter to knights, and eagles are just too cost effective themselves. Its really hard to beat eagles, even with knights

 

[Instinctz]

Eagles are only problematic in early to mid castle age and fall off hard. I'd agree to a food increase to make them less spammable, but only if compensated with a gold decrease to make them a more viable long term plan.

Any other nerf is completely unnecessary and I'm not even sure they need nerfs.

 

[kalpit00]

Eagles are only problematic in early to mid castle age and fall off hard. I'd agree to a food increase to make them less spammable, but only if compensated with a gold decrease to make them a more viable long term plan.

Any other nerf is completely unnecessary and I'm not even sure they need nerfs.

I disagree, Elite Eagles destroy knights and CAs. The speed alone is so crazy they almost outrun cavalry, the armor is crazy good vs any ranged damage and the cheap cost is still just too good. Your 4 tile second and third golds themselves last long enough to spam enough eagles and get you map control. Then you can just put 50 vils on all extra golds and with 20-30 farmers you can be making just soooo many eagles. And this is Early Imperial Age we are talking. I admit, Eagles die to Heavy Cavalry, but Heavy Cavalry also takes a veryy long time to get too, by which you can transition to halbs or something else

Aztecs Eagle spam in castle age and Elite Eagle play in imperial age is the most devastating of all (can up 70-80 vils imp, get Elite and raid to death), Mayans with El Dorado Eagles and Halbs? They destroy even Paladin play. Incas probably has the Eagle play with the least punch out of all three, but their Eagles with Fabric Shields is an even better counter to Mangudai or CAs in imperial age

 

[Hunyadi_]

Yeah I get the concern but to be honest that's all the Native American civs have in terms of a mobile unit. Yes Mayans also have their own horseless cav archer and Aztecs steal other people's knights but one requires a castle and the other requires expensive monks. Eagles may make them OP in many situations but without the chicken boyz, Aztecs, Mayans and Incas would probably be complete garbo.

 

[King_Marv]

Eagles suck.
To make them somehow good you need 7 upgrades in castle age. Frank knights need 2 other 3 to be viable. Also you can micro your knights away when they have low hp.

 

[Springoftheking]

If Eagles would be broken, the American civs would have very high win rates. Only Mayans are top 5 or top 10 civ, Aztecs and Incas are average. Nerfing Eagles would left many times archer play only viable option to American civs.

 

[Adamantium]

they need to be a little bit strong to compensate the fact they dont have kts, but i understand is kinda absurd to be almost able to make 3 eagles for the price of a vill (food wise)

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Just stonewall 5head

 

[MAE_JO]

Yeah I get the concern but to be honest that's all the Native American civs have

The thing is I am not asking about deleting the unit nor nerf that much, but the unit indeed is not balanced about it's cost. 20F cost is so broken and ufair for the huge role and the bug advantage that the unit have, what is the problem if the unit food cost become 30F for example? It is even still so cheap.

 

[Instinctz]

what is the problem if the unit food cost become 30F for example? It is even still so cheap.

on the food side? yes. on the gold side? not so much. You want 30 food cost eagles? 45 gold max in return.

 

[USC_kiky]

Given that many civs have access to cheaper knights, e.g. Poles, Berbers, Portuguese, or cheaper upgrades to their cavalry, I actually think that the meso civs deserve a tech to reduce the gold cost of their eagles in imperial age, to compensate for their lack of gold-free raiding units, i.e. scout line, in the late game.

 

[[KoBHV]venivero]

The imbalanced broken cheap Archer food cost:
I mean 0 food really? You can go up to imp so fast, you have no problem getting upgrades that cost food in castle or imperial age. Super broken.

 

[MAE_JO]

The imbalanced broken cheap Archer food cost:
I mean 0 food really? You can go up to imp so fast, you have no problem getting upgrades that cost food in castle or imperial age. Super broken.

Your argument is so laughable and have nothing to do with a unit like Eagle warrior. Dealing with archers is super easy, you have skirms, you have siege, you have knights and whatever and in the end they have a trash counter. Now lets talk about the cheap dirt Eagles. The unit have no trash counter, the unit is tanky and can kill super ez under TCs, the unit is cheap dirt, the unit have resistence conversion, the unit have high attack and literally can outnumber anything and their castle age Eagle warriro flood with eco like Hoang's eco with their broken cost is just a broken as hell. It is not more about the cost itself comparing to what the unit itself can do. Eagles play like 4 or even 5 roles at once with unfair cost.

Their food cost should go up direcrly to 30 or even 35 without any single compensation, or maybe if it 35F then 45G. But imo it should be 30F, 50G not less.

 

[kalpit00]

The imbalanced broken cheap Archer food cost:
I mean 0 food really? You can go up to imp so fast, you have no problem getting upgrades that cost food in castle or imperial age. Super broken.

Laughs in Mayans 5 ranges 3 on food xbow mangonel flood

But seriously micro makes all the difference between the two units here, and the fact archers take longer to get across the map compared to eagles, and also get full countered by Elite skirms or towers or mangonel defense

 

[King_Marv]

This topic was opened by someone who is 12xx right ?

 

[D4Mi4N]

This topic was opened by someone who is 12xx right ?

dk his rating, but dude spouts off the same **** in every forum

 

[jetseLinkinPark]

This topic was opened by someone who is 12xx right ?

As a 11xx I would say his gameknowledge would be many many hundreds of elo lower