The Hidden Cup format?

[Bowserlord]

(Feel free to correct if theres a problem with my simulations. R code :

yz<-list()
pz<-rep(0, 100000)
for (i in 1:100000){
  xy<-seq(1:16)
  yz[i]<-sum(sample(xy)[1:8]<7)
  kk<-sample(xy)
  for (j in 1:16) {
    if (j %% 2==1) {
      if ((kk[j] == 1) && (kk[j+1] == 2)) {
        pz[i]<-1
      } else if ((kk[j] == 2) && (kk[j+1] == 1)) {
        pz[i]<-1
      } else if ((kk[j] == 2) && (kk[j+1] == 3)) {
        pz[i]<-1
      } else if ((kk[j] == 3) && (kk[j+1] == 2)) {
        pz[i]<-1
      } else if ((kk[j] == 3) && (kk[j+1] == 1)) {
        pz[i]<-1
      } else if ((kk[j] == 1) && (kk[j+1] == 3)) {
        pz[i]<-1
      }
    
    }
  }
}
sum(pz)/100000


sum(yz==6)/100000+sum(yz<1)/100000
sum(yz>5)/100000+sum(yz<2)/100000
sum(yz>4)/100000+sum(yz<3)/100000

First, get your variables proper names; perhaps i will correct it then.

 

[pete26196]

I just say that this random algorithm (which we as pleb viewers have no proof was ever used) was pretty good at choosing who deserved to pass to the next round. It decided that TheViper, Mbl, Liereyy and slam were the 4 best players of HC1. It pushed for a Viper vs Liereyy semi and a Viper vs Mbl final, not bad for being blind and fair.

A relevent comic:

 

[dooog]

Nothing wrong with it being unseeded, the tournament gimmick demands it. The oldest football competition in the world the FA Cup has completely random draws and it's often regarded as the best domestic cup competition in Europe. Maybe some future tournament will also be unseeded and the caster host can hype up the random draw on stream, drawing numbered balls from a hat for each round 11 The draw is actually one of the most fun things about the FA Cup.

As for revealing player names... watching HC2 I felt it was pretty obvious to tell who most of the players were (the ones who played more than 1 series) so the hidden aspect becomes less important as the tournament progresses IMO.

Agree with the comment about not having players play both semi final and final on the same day... as both Mbl and Viper said in past HCs, the winner of the second semi will be tired and put at a big disadvantage for the final.

 

[Eastwind]

First of all, I apologize for my broken English:

The hidden aspect of the HC what makes it so fun and I love the format.

But one thing that really concerns me is the timing of it. Last time we had a HC, the scene was quite saturated with "traditional" cups (we had ECL, NACs, KotD, BoA, MoA...) and it seemed that the community was not growing that fast. 10k at a final was looking like a huge success and all the "veteran" spectators were more or less familiar with the names attending the tournaments.

Now we have a kinda new game (despite its buggy state for a serious tournament as it is) we have a lot of new faces and even in the first major tournament final, we reached 26k which would be beyond dreams one year ago. So I do think that these new faces know the player base well enough to guess who is who and enjoy the primary aspect of the tournament as much as AoeZone readers would do.

I would have scheduled the HC3 towards the second half of the year instead of making it the second major tournament after the DE release.

 

[Tendo]

I rly dislike the hidden Aspect of HC, but that's why I just won't watch it.
Since the qualifiers of HC2 were not hidden I was rooting for Jordan and watching them, but at the main tournament I'm not able to root for anyone.
I was watching the last games of the final aswell to hear who won the Tournament, but only out of curiosity without getting any hype for the games.

It's a gimmick and there are obviously a lot of people who still enjoy watching the tournament.
I don't think revealing the loser would change a lot, atleast not for me.

 

[Tarsiz]

If the format of HC didn't provide interesting games then HC2 would never have beaten the viewership record set by NAC2. Which it did without the front page, by the way.

I think one of the key things to enjoy in Hidden Cup (for true lovers of the competitive scene, that is, not fanboys of X or Y who play at 12xx at best when they play at all) is how incredibly good everyone is. Sure you can tell some players seem stronger than others but the truth is each of these 16 players plays the game at an unbelievable level and the casters paying especially close attention to each of them showcases the vast levels of skills of every player, while if the identities were revealed, casters would scrutinize more closely what the theoretical stronger player is doing.

Trying to guess the identities of each player is a way to captivate the viewers for longer, as you need to see every game to try and guess who is who. I would be curious to see actual numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if an average viewer of HC2 watched for longer during the stream than an average viewer of KotD2 (outside the final in both cases, on a day full of matches for instance).

Also, complete seeding breakdown =/=optimal competitiveness. The 2019 US Open of tennis had a total prize pool of 57 million dollars, and it uses, like all Grand Slam tournaments, semi-random seeding. Seed 1 is always at the top and seed 2 always at the bottom. But then the semis can be 1 vs 3 and 2 vs 4 or 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3. In the quarterfinals the top seed can meet anyone seeded 5 to 8. Etc. And nobody would complain about how "uncompetitive" the US Open is...

I like nimanoe's and dodageka's idea but I also like the fact that you can meet everybody in the first round and have to be super ready at all times. And no matter the seeding, anyone who reaches the final would give Viper a run for his money.

 

[buhanisson]

Personally, I think in the current scene of aoe2, seeding top 4 is more unfair than fully random bracket. We all know who seed #1 is, but seeds #2-#6 are kind of way more difficult to determine, and it would be pretty random who gets the #2 seed and HUGE advantage, versus who gets the #4 seed and guaranteed Viper semifinal.

So if you only seed some of the players, I would rather seed top 8 (or maybe 6, as I think that would be somehow possible, too?).

 

[SouFire]

Whats is wrong with this new generations, what really matters is the quality of the games, the maps and settings used in HC has been the most attractive thing, the hidden factor is actually really good for some players and viewers, as viper has said he already knows who is he facing due to pings or game style, but the viewers don't know that even the casters, so don't ruin the fun with false fanboism, if you are rooting for tatoh or whoever you will do that despite you don't know his gametag.

The same guys complaining about it suspiciously are the same guys angry about memb at nac3, if you don't like the setting don't watch it, there are potentially 20k more players willing to do it live and hundreds of thousands will watch it later on youtube.

Anyway about the HC3 the prize is really high it can potentially bring back old legends and motivate other top players to try hard it, so it is a win win for the aoe community.

 

[Clemensor]

the HC events have been the most entertaining for me of all the latest events. I feel like the games themselves really get to shine in that regard. I also do not really care about rooting for a player. I enjoy the more play-centric aspect, rather than player-centric. It also shows everytime how little a lot of ppl really know about playstyles etc. apart from memes. (not that Id be able to discern the players most of the time)

 

[Syphax]

Whats is wrong with this new generations, what really matters is the quality of the games, the maps and settings used in HC has been the most attractive thing, the hidden factor is actually really good for some players and viewers, as viper has said he already knows who is he facing due to pings or game style, but the viewers don't know that even the casters, so don't ruin the fun with false fanboism, if you are rooting for tatoh or whoever you will do that despite you don't know his gametag.

The same guys complaining about it suspiciously are the same guys angry about memb at nac3, if you don't like the setting don't watch it, there are potentially 20k more players willing to do it live and hundreds of thousands will watch it later on youtube.

Anyway about the HC3 the prize is really high it can potentially bring back old legends and motivate other top players to try hard it, so it is a win win for the aoe community.

No, I was supporting Nili's decision not to invite Memb, but I am critical of HC. The difference being: I don't think it's up to me to dictate either, I'm just voicing my lowly opinion and hoping for a nice discussion. I'm not saying HC "has to be" a certain way, just that I think it might be problematic in some regards. If others disagree and T90 doesn't care, no harm done.

the HC events have been the most entertaining for me of all the latest events. I feel like the games themselves really get to shine in that regard. I also do not really care about rooting for a player. I enjoy the more play-centric aspect, rather than player-centric. It also shows everytime how little a lot of ppl really know about playstyles etc. apart from memes. (not that Id be able to discern the players most of the time)

The thing is, though, I don't find HC that play-centric. I felt that ironically, a large amount of the casting and most of the viewer talk was not about the specific plays or great strategies and more about figuring out who each player was.

 

[Mc_Muffin]

Regarding the seeding problem: You could play with a swiss format (simular then what Nili did at NAC 3) and let the top 4 players after a fixed Number of Rounds play it out in a Semifinal / Final

That being said: I dont like swiss format

 

[polyomavirus]

Throwing my vote to keeping it exactly as is, though I understand that it’s totally subjective.

Hidden Cup has remained my favorite tournament format. The hidden aspect really brings the community together as a big ball of hype, as the audience can guess, discuss, vote, and so forth. And although I’ve watched enough in the past two years to have a few favorite players, I love that HCs provide a means of looking beyond the players, their personalities, and their (sometimes loud) fan bases.

And in a sense, it’s new viewer-friendly, because they get to watch games and get into the community without the somewhat intimidating factor of not knowing any history or who anyone is - since no one can be certain who anyone is.

If want to support your favorite player, you’ve got every other tournament and showmatch in which to do so. HC is the only one doing what it does.

I also disagree with the thought that it should be later in the year. There’s a saying - “strike while the hammer is hot”. And with people’s attentions being so badly fragmented in the current times, it’s important to keep them engaged. The longer the time between tournaments, the more they wander elsewhere, especially new, not yet fully hooked viewers and players. I think 1.5-2 months is a pretty good time.

 

[JoshuaR]

Another suggestion: how about making it some sort of game, eg every round the identity of ONE defeated player will be revealed, whereas the audience gets to choose who it is.

Example: RO8, 4 people get eliminated. Viewers can vote whether to unveil the identity of Joan of Arc, Hrolf, William Wallace and... Or whatever.

I'd be up for something like that. Some kind of reward along the way without spoiling the finale weekend.

 

[yufzsy]

HC3 will easily break the viewer record in NAC3. You guys underestimate the release of DE a lot. Regular viewer exploded 3X than before for almost every channel. NAC3 with 24k viewer with DE is like 10k with old version.
BTW, I never believe bracket of hidden cup is actually hidden. But this is a ok way to sellout.

 

[jacobhs7]

I'd be up for something like that. Some kind of reward along the way without spoiling the finale weekend.

Or, instead of having chat decide on a player to be revealed automatically, you could poll viewers to guess who someone was, maybe after they've been eliminated, then have the admin just say whether they're wrong or right. It'd give away less information than an automatic reveal, though I'm not sure how to rig it so that DauT wouldn't win every poll, as would probably happen.

 

[Ghazna]

I also do not really care about rooting for a player. I enjoy the more play-centric aspect, rather than player-centric.

+1.. I don’t get this rooting for player mentality lol, sounds like plebs in chat who spam 100 emotes annoyingly

 

[Jarvin]

HC3 will easily break the viewer record in NAC3. You guys underestimate the release of DE a lot. Regular viewer exploded 3X than before for almost every channel. NAC3 with 24k viewer with DE is like 10k with old version.
BTW, I never believe bracket of hidden cup is actually hidden. But this is a ok way to sellout.

And why do you think this is the case?
Do you think the organizers are misleading us? What would they gain from it?

 

[TriRem]

BTW, I never believe bracket of hidden cup is actually hidden. But this is a ok way to sellout.

Imagine thinking T90 is good enough of an actor to fake being clueless about the games

 

[RogganWololo]

I'm wondering how the HC format is going to work on steam. Even if the players change their account names to hide themselves, most of them are friends with each other on steam and they'll know who they are playing against. So...... will you guys have to create 32 new steam accounts and buy a copy of Age2DE each for them?

Also, I like the idea of the Swiss format to complement the hidden aspect to make things fairer. However, that may not be possible since it would increase the number of games to be played significantly, which makes it difficult to cover the entire event on one weekend.

HC1 and HC2 were fun to watch. I can see why some people wouldn't enjoy the format as much, since they're unable to root for their favourite player. However for me, the quality of games is more important and HC (as a matter of fact any top level tournament) never fails to deliver that. And also the excitement of the player reveal.

Needless to say, I'm hyped for the event!

 

[aoe2net]

I'm wondering how the HC format is going to work on steam. Even if the players change their account names to hide themselves, most of them are friends with each other on steam and they'll know who they are playing against. So...... will you guys have to create 32 new steam accounts and buy a copy of Age2DE each for them?

MBL said on his stream today they will be getting new Steam accounts, so I think they thought of that. The only other obvious thing I can think of off the top of my head to look out for would be the server, just pick a random one, not let DE pick the closest since that will be visible if they allow spectating, which I assume they will.

Edit: Oh I'm not actually sure how this works, and someone would have to test it, but the language shows up as well, I really don't know why, but I think that is the language of p1. That would give it away as well...

 

[yufzsy]

Imagine thinking T90 is good enough of an actor to fake being clueless about the games

T90 don't have to know the identities but someone like robo should know. Try to random seeding and make viper liererry mbl yo on the 4 different quarter zone in hc2.

 

[yufzsy]

And why do you think this is the case?
Do you think the organizers are misleading us? What would they gain from it?

They need better players to go further in the tournament to make it competitive. Just check the bracket of hc1 and hc2 you will notice big names like viper liererry yo will never face each other before semifinals.

 

[HongeyKong]

MBL said on his stream today they will be getting new Steam accounts, so I think they thought of that. The only other obvious thing I can think of off the top of my head to look out for would be the server, just pick a random one, not let DE pick the closest since that will be visible if they allow spectating, which I assume they will.

Edit: Oh I'm not actually sure how this works, and someone would have to test it, but the language shows up as well, I really don't know why, but I think that is the language of p1. That would give it away as well...

I dont think that matters, as Im pretty sure someone would troll with that 1111

 

[Oli King]

It's not that likely that the two best players reach the final (in a randomly seeded single elimination tournament).
Chances of them being on the same side of the bracket are just below 50% (7/15).
Also I'm nitpicking but they don't necessarily have to face better opponents every round, it might even get easier every round.

I think it would be nice to have the top 4 seeded, so that they cannot face each other before the semis, and let the rest of the bracket be randomized.
I think you'd still have the same upsides as in HC2, but with the added benefit of a great semis and finals, as either the top 4 will play each other or someone who has beat them ( in) directly.

Given the amount of money that's at stake now, I don't like a full random bracket.

especially with the unknown seeding of top 2-4 it still will be hidden. top 4 could be yo, mbl, hera, tatoh, liereyy, max, ... so its still unclear even with a little pre-seeding.

Afterwards the top 4 should just take a random spot in their "quarter" of a bracket.

 

[wAkKo]

Whats is wrong with this new generations, what really matters is the quality of the games, the maps and settings used in HC has been the most attractive thing, the hidden factor is actually really good for some players and viewers, as viper has said he already knows who is he facing due to pings or game style, but the viewers don't know that even the casters, so don't ruin the fun with false fanboism, if you are rooting for tatoh or whoever you will do that despite you don't know his gametag.

The same guys complaining about it suspiciously are the same guys angry about memb at nac3, if you don't like the setting don't watch it, there are potentially 20k more players willing to do it live and hundreds of thousands will watch it later on youtube.

Anyway about the HC3 the prize is really high it can potentially bring back old legends and motivate other top players to try hard it, so it is a win win for the aoe community.

Age of complaints, bro.