The Hidden Cup format?

[Syphax]

With the announcement of Hidden Cup 3, I thought it could make sense to start a discussion about the Hidden Cup format.

The point of this is not to tell t90 how to host tournaments. Obviously he objectively knows that better than me. Also, it is his and his supporters' money, not mine, so their call. I'm also not trying to be a complainer or to detract from the tournament itself. Which is why I'm starting this discussion now and not when the tournament launches. Instead, I'm just trying to start a lighthearted discussion about a tournament format, voice my own subjective opinion and would love to hear your thoughts and input.

After this lengthy introduction I have to say that I am not the biggest fan of the current HC format. I am referring to the concept of keeping all player identities hidden until the final is played.

Thr advantages of the format are known:

- Players are supposed to not be dissuaded from facing a really strong opponent, because they won't know his real nick
- viewers and casters can have fun guessing games
- everyone can be excited until the final about whether their favorite is still in it

However, while I do see the novelty factor of this, I don't believe it is the best way forward as one of the top 2/3 biggest 1v1 tournaments:

- as a viewer, I mostly like cheering for some players like Daut, Hera, Tatoh, Viper etc. It feels good to spam Doritos etc. In contrast, I don't feel so excited for Hrolf the Ganger vs Robin Hood, even if I have the feeling it might be MbL vs Viper. It also feels like someone is trying to "trick" me.
- strategy is, to a degree, also about knowing your opponent. Imo it is fun if players and casters take that into consideration: eg analysing at the beginning of the game that someone loves his tower rush etc
- it also creates a problem for seeding: if you do it by skill/rating, then the "hidden" factor will be gone to a degree. If you do it completely at random, then the elim brackets could be extremely unfair and the final rounds might be very one sided
- it doesn't help players' brands that much: in normal tournaments, your name will keep appearing: ohh, LaaaaaN made it to the ro8! Well done, I should check out his stream. In HC, that player's name will only pop up once at the end, quickly to be forgotten, if he hasnt been in the final.
- it just seems a bit gimmicky: "what if it was top9 vs top14 in the final all along?! Kappa kappa". It also distracts from the gameplay, ironically. A lot of time will be spent on casters guess-trolling around, ahaha, this can't be Viper, this has to be Viper etc. Its less about who wins and more about who is who.

Now all of that sounded very negative. Obviously, thousands of people still loved HC2 and HC3 might become the biggest aoe2 event ever. I don't doubt that. But maybe that is also just "despite" or "irrespective" of the hidden factor, not "because". T90 is just a great caster all around, the format is maybe secondary
to a degree. After all, afaik this format is not used for any other major esports events, which is at least an indication that it might not be the best for hype, viewers etc.

Perhaps it could be possible to modify the "hidden" format a bit? Perhaps it would make sense to just unveil player identities after they have been defeated. This would in a way also reward watching over time because more and more information is uncovered. Naturally, by the time the final is reached it would become a bit obvious, but isn't that fine?

I'm not naive enough to think that my personal opinion is important on its own, but maybe it can start a constructive discussion.

 

[Andreas]

I for one really like format and the fact you don't know who's actually playing.
The only thing i'd suggest adding are live webcams like in NAC

 

[Lankbouv]

Simply put: the excitement of hidden players > fairness of a tournament.

As long as it's just for 1 tournament)

 

[buhanisson]

Some of the points you mention are more or less relevant, but I dont know, I just kinda love the format as it is.

I think maybe revealing SOME of the eliminated players at some point before the end would be fun (for example kinda like a christmas calendar type thingy), but to reveal them all would kinda kill the hype for the final.

 

[Carlini8]

The hidden aspect is the USP of the tournament.

We don't know about tournaments for 2020, there is no Escape this year which means there is much more free "pro" time. You can't just flood tournaments in our community because we have a very defined set of pros and if 5 of them are busy with another tournament then the other one is already lacking. There was a lot of playing for Escape and that is likely to be filled with a MS sponsorship somehow. Of the normal big tournament hosts we only have Memb left to reveal his hand after March with Escape gone. 9 months of the year, I think we are likely to see more than just a Memb tournament. Those 3 have proven themselves with MS funds before, I imagine one of those 3 hosts will double up this year.

If that is the case, there is no real reason to get rid of this tournaments USP.

 

[Syphax]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

@Carlini8: good points. But it could be possible to modify the hidden aspect, eg revealing the losers or so.

But yeah, if there are other big tournaments coming, then it would be fine to have one "novelty" format. I just wouldn't like HC be the one "top 1v1 player" tournament of the year aside from NAC. It just has some downsides (see above) and might actually not be the best way to get the most possible views.

Tournament success is always about many factors, most importantly players and casters (Viper casted by T90 is probably the best viewer magnet atm for example), but also about settings (eg MSC didn't have the most attractive settings for viewers imo).

While HC3 will probably be massive, I believe that T90 could probably pull even bigger numbers with a different format.

 

[MaSmOrRa]

It wouldn’t make much sense to call it the Hidden Cup if the feature that gives its name to the cup is not present anymore lol

Don’t fix it if it ain’t broken.

I personally enjoyed the format a lot the last 2 iterations and had more fun than I thought I would guessing who the players are.

 

[HongeyKong]

Some of the points you mention are more or less relevant, but I dont know, I just kinda love the format as it is.

I think maybe revealing SOME of the eliminated players at some point before the end would be fun (for example kinda like a christmas calendar type thingy), but to reveal them all would kinda kill the hype for the final.

Or maybe make some sort of tier/ranking with seeds, Like 1~4 = A | 5~12 = B | 13~24 = C ......


I still prefer all hidden tho

 

[Ghazna]

The only thing i'd suggest adding are live webcams like in NAC

I might also add post-game interviews

 

[Carlini8]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

@Carlini8: good points. But it could be possible to modify the hidden aspect, eg revealing the losers or so.

But yeah, if there are other big tournaments coming, then it would be fine to have one "novelty" format. I just wouldn't like HC be the one "top 1v1 player" tournament of the year aside from NAC. It just has some downsides (see above) and might actually not be the best way to get the most possible views.

Tournament success is always about many factors, most importantly players and casters (Viper casted by T90 is probably the best viewer magnet atm for example), but also about settings (eg MSC didn't have the most attractive settings for viewers imo).

While HC3 will probably be massive, I believe that T90 could probably pull even bigger numbers with a different format.

Do I think The T90 Apartment Cup would bring in more views than Hidden Cup 3? Yes, all being equal the addition of a LAN will increase viewership. Do I think the T90 Apartment Hidden Cup with players on webcam with bags on their head increasing viewership? Maybe. No one will ever do anything perfectly in this space. They could always do something differently to get more views, but it is worth remembering that until less than a week ago HC2 had the AoE2 community viewer record.

I believe revealing players as you went along was thought about lots but due to various reason the current format was selected.

 

[Jarvin]

I think the whole problem here is that we typically want to be able to draw conclusions from any kind of tournament and 'project them' onto the whole scene, so if, say, Hera were to win then we want to be able to say that Hera is now officially in top 3 of AoE2(just as an example)
As long as we keep with that goal, Hidden Cup's format is always going to fail.
Just as an example: in the last Hidden Cup TheViper's path to the finals was: Nicov, Vivi, MBL, whereas TheMax had... Tim, Jordan and Yo. Arguably 3 of top 10 players vs just one(?).
Randomness of HC's format is always going to make the competitiveness of the brackets.. random
in an extreme situation we could have a final between #1 player and #9(if 1-8 and 9-16 seds somehow split into two parts of the bracket) which probably wouldn't be too fair.

Hovewer, as long as we just drop this notion that a tournament has to be competitive, and start treating HC3's goal to be solely for pure entertainment, its randomness is going to be perfectly fine and the success of the previous 2 editions is only a proof that neither players nor viewers probably have any major issues with this format.

You are probably right though in that it might be kind of an issue when HC is literally one of the only major 1v1 tournaments we have each year. If the 'hidden' aspect of HC3 is meant to be unique in context of other tournaments, then we need other, more 'standard' tournaments to create that context.
I don't think if there's much need to worry about that though. It's only beginning of January and we've already had one major tournament(NAC3) and an announcement for another major one in March(HC3) it seems that M$ is really keen on investing into AoE2 for the time being so there'll probably be many more to come

 

[Henkdesupernerd]

About the random seeding:
It is true that a lower rated player can face the top player in the (semi)finals.
In order to win the tournament they still have to beat every opponent they face, which means they will face stronger opponents every round they advance. This means it is very likely that the two best players reach the finals. It also is possible that a dark horse has reached the finals. However that player didn't get there for free but had to win versus top players.

With the 8+8 players that will be part of the bracket, there will not be a bye win like there was last year, so no unfair head start for a random player.

It still is true that in theory it is possible to have all the top8 on one side of the bracket and the top9-16 on the other side of the bracket. That means it is possible that the final will be the 1st ranked player playing against number 9.
However, this chance is extremely unlikely.

A swiss system would theoretically help to make sure winning the tournament is well deserved. In that system every player played versus every player. However that has major set backs:
- if every player would play against every other player that would mean a ton of games played.
- the bracket creates a sense of hype, leading up to the finals, the swiss system doesn't have that unless it is used as a qualifier to advance to a elimination bracket (like NAC3)

Personally I like the format as it is.
- The mystery and the small chance that a dark horse manages to reach the semi/finals. I wanna be surprised!
- top players might face another early. That makes even the RO16 games potentially super interesting (seed 1 versus seed 2, instead of the regular seed1 vs seed16)
- hidden identities until finals keeps the viewers and the players guessing.
- the big reveal at the end is entertaining, especially for those who joined the guessing-poll and also to the caster and participants: did they know who played who?
- I have no problem cheering for an imaginary character: "go Hrolf the Ganger!!"

Besides all this theoretical speculation I also think that t90's admin might prevent extreme cases where the bracket is very imbalanced. However, if that would be the case I think the influence of that admin is still very limited to keep the character of the tournament.

 

[PipesMble]

The thing with the HC format is that it allows/forces you to watch every possible match up because you are not sure who you are watching. Some players attract more attention than others which results in more viewers. The fact that the next game on round 1 or 2 could be a Viper vs Mbl or a Daut vs Tatoh kinda makes you keep watching. You can view that in two ways: 1.I don't like that I have to watch every game to find the player I am cheering for or an exciting matchup and 2.I enjoy trying to find the player I am cheering for by viewing every game.
In my opinion it really comes down to how much time the viewer has available. For me HC2 was extremely enjoyable because I had the time at that period to follow the tournament. This year given that my time is limited that probably won't be the same.
Now regarding the players I believe this format allows players that are not at the top of the top to shine. The lack of seeding can create an unfortunate drawing in the early rounds (i.e. Nicov facing the same micro nerd on round one of both HC) but can also allow players a "lucky" draw and progress further in the the tournament. TheMax is the obvious example here. For sure he played amazingly but you could argue that in a structured tournament he might not have gone as far. He caught his break and now he got a big boost on his profile.
Bottom line is that everyone loves a "Rocky" story and in the AoE world this is the format to provide it.

 

[Syphax]

The problem for me is, even rooting for an underdog doesn't work that well in this format.

In terms of exposure and brand recognition, basically only the top two players will really benefit from HC.

Imagine if someone like Villese or even Vinchester beats multiple top10 players and reaches the semis but loses there, then nobody will have been that impressed with him for multiple days. Instead, his surprisingly good performance will only be a short shock moment at the very end, oh wow, I thought it was Hera playing, but it was really Vinchester!

Hyping and promoting an underdog works better when he has multiple rounds and games to gain more name recognition rather than just being "Joan of Arc" or whatever.

 

[Memeluke]

I can't stand t90's style of casting, but the hidden cup is so good that I have to watch his stream when it happens.
It's one of the very few tournaments where we can dream and pretend TheViper didn't win until the very end, when the norwegian gigachad enters TeamSpeak

 

[nimanoe]

About the random seeding:
It is true that a lower rated player can face the top player in the (semi)finals.
In order to win the tournament they still have to beat every opponent they face, which means they will face stronger opponents every round they advance. This means it is very likely that the two best players reach the finals. It also is possible that a dark horse has reached the finals. However that player didn't get there for free but had to win versus top players.

It's not that likely that the two best players reach the final (in a randomly seeded single elimination tournament).
Chances of them being on the same side of the bracket are just below 50% (7/15).
Also I'm nitpicking but they don't necessarily have to face better opponents every round, it might even get easier every round.

I think it would be nice to have the top 4 seeded, so that they cannot face each other before the semis, and let the rest of the bracket be randomized.
I think you'd still have the same upsides as in HC2, but with the added benefit of a great semis and finals, as either the top 4 will play each other or someone who has beat them ( in) directly.

Given the amount of money that's at stake now, I don't like a full random bracket.

 

[Degaussed]

I love this tournament, just as I loved NAC3. I only have two issues with it:

1) last year, IIRC, one finalist had to play a semi on the day of the final and one did not? That player was Viper, who said in his post-match interview he felt the effects of playing a big semi AND final on the same day. I think it's much more fair to have the semis played on Saturday. Obviously I'm aware there may be some issues with scheduling.

2) last year, imo, there was too much time spent trying to guess who each player was during matches, and it felt like it often took precedence over the importance of what was actually happening in the match. I understand that's the point of the tournament, but sometimes it would be good to be able to watch an Archer fight without the constant guessing if that micro was good enough to be Larry.

 

[Hokurex]

I enjoy the hidden aspect of this tournament. The reveal at the end makes it very entertaining. What I'm asking is how does it work with DE and Steam to create 16 accounts for the players???

 

[Degaussed]

I enjoy the hidden aspect of this tournament. The reveal at the end makes it very entertaining. What I'm asking is how does it work with DE and Steam to create 16 accounts for the players???

I think you can change your username within the game. Whoever is the admin of this tournament will just send the players their usernames, and then get them to appear as offline all weekend or something.

 

[Henkdesupernerd]

It's not that likely that the two best players reach the final (in a randomly seeded single elimination tournament).
Chances of them being on the same side of the bracket are just below 50% (7/15).
Also I'm nitpicking but they don't necessarily have to face better opponents every round, it might even get easier every round.

I think it would be nice to have the top 4 seeded, so that they cannot face each other before the semis, and let the rest of the bracket be randomized.
I think you'd still have the same upsides as in HC2, but with the added benefit of a great semis and finals, as either the top 4 will play each other or someone who has beat them directly.

Given the amount of money that's at stake now, I don't like a full random bracket.

You are right.
I have played around with (semi) random brackets myself (for the Random Everything Cup I organized) and I know how hard it can be to find a balance between fair and random.

Seeding the top 4 would help. Those 4 should not be known to the public and casters though, or else too much attention will be drawn towards them.
Apart from that I think it is pretty much ideal.

 

[Jarvin]

@Degaussed

Yea that doesn't really work

 

[doacid]

I couldn't agree more OP. Hidden Cup 1 and 2 are the only tournaments I haven't watched in the last 4-5 years. I just can't bring myself to like it.
It feels like unknown people are playing against each other and that just doesn't captivate me.

However I think we might be in the minority. It turns out lots of people love the idea.
Making it not hidden I think it's impossible as that is the tittle of the tournament and the whole idea behind it. Besides as I said people love the thing so it'll be time for them to enjoy!
I'll try to watch it again when it starts and we'll see if this time I get hooked or not.

 

[ZeroEmpires]

I understand where OP is coming from but it also comes with the assumption that HC3 will be the last major 1v1 event of the year. It’s great to cheer for your favourite players and hidden cup removes that aspect, but the uniqueness of the event sets it apart and makes it exciting to watch none the less.
The format is fine, and perhaps we’ll see another 1v1 event in the remaining 9 months of 2020 which has a more traditional format too.

 

[Memeluke]

Completely random bracket is the only way that makes sense. And #2 to like #9 in the world can all win or lose against each other in a tournament, they can't all stay in the same bracket as TheViper. The final will not be much worse than the NAC3 final no matter how much you stack the seeding to have weak players in the semis. Also I remember HC1 being "secretely" seeded led me to guess correctly a huge amount of players (I think the very best players got immediatly to the next round, even if it was supposed to be random).

 

[Degaussed]

@Degaussed

View attachment 174886

Yea that doesn't really work

I didn't know this! I guess Microsoft will just give them 16 new codes then, or they will fund it from the prize pool.