The Grand Melee - Announcement and Discussion

Some time ago, the secretive Order of the Sheep teased us The Grand Melee, an Age of Empires II: DE happening in Hannover at the DreamHack LAN event, from the 15th to the 17th of December.

We are now happy to deliver the full message to you.

Settings specifics
The whole event will be played using the DWL game mode, also known as 9 villagers start game mode. It will allow for quicker action, while keeping the openness and strategic diversity of the standard RM mode.

Main event
The Grand Melee main event will consist of a single elimination bracket, featuring a total of 8 players.
15th of December
Quarter finals best of 5
16th of December
Semi finals best of 7
17th of December
Third place match best of 7 and Grand final best of 9

Participation
Firstly, as per their performance in the RedBull Wololo: Legacy tournament, Liereyy and TaToH has been granted an invitation to the main event.

Secondly, the other 6 participants will have to come on top of the entirely open qualifiers happening on the 3rd and 4th of December. The registration is already open and you can sign up here on start.gg

Prize money reward
The monetary reward will amount to a whopping $100,000 split between the 8 main event players as followed:

1st place: $40,000
2nd place: $20,000
3rd place: $14,000
4th place: $10,000
5th to 8th: $4,000

Where to watch?
The whole event will be streamed on Twitch at: https://www.twitch.tv/theorderofthesheep

On top of that, the qualifiers will be completely open to broadcast, so you can catch them live at your favourite streamer’s channel on the 3rd and 4th of December!

Details for the broadcasting policy of the main event will be announced soon. Stay tuned...

Join the Discord server now!
Chat with us and get all the latest updates regarding The Grand Melee at https://discord.gg/vT9NWJJtp5

You can also use this announcement thread to discuss about the tournament and to send your questions and feedback.

See you soon!

 

I say online is too high risk of cheating

 

cant understand why people are complaining.
questions like who is the order of the sheep, why is this price distribution, are nonesense. they do what they want with their money. or someone ask you why you spend your money on the things you buy?? i think we live in a free world.
you dont like the format, the price distribution, the time, etc, do your own tournament. its simple. stop complaining about everything, people (investors) get tired and retire their money if they dont feel the hype or if they dont feel gracefull.
they are giving a new tournament, LAN tournament, 100k, and we are complaining? WTF??? for real??
you dont like it? dont watch it, dont stream it, dont go. period.

 

open streaming the qualifiers so we promote it but then close streaming the main event, make sense to me.

I guess free weekends after doing so much for this community is not that bad at all.

Also DWL mode but Warlords settings not even mentioning i wonder who is behind the scenes that ignore completly a 30k event with same settings but mention DWL.

Yes i rage and cry but sorry, yeah this announcement made me frustrated and disappointed with whoever is behind this, also 100k for 8 players is also really bad.

memb, you are too big of a streamer, and too big of a member of this comunity to cry about the DWL and Warlords thing. Come on. Dont get frustrated.

 

https://twitter.com/OrderOfTheSheep/status/1596156833089327107

Prize pool expanded by an extra 10k to include Qualifiers.

 

cant understand why people are complaining.
questions like who is the order of the sheep, why is this price distribution, are nonesense. they do what they want with their money. or someone ask you why you spend your money on the things you buy?? i think we live in a free world.
you dont like the format, the price distribution, the time, etc, do your own tournament. its simple. stop complaining about everything, people (investors) get tired and retire their money if they dont feel the hype or if they dont feel gracefull.
they are giving a new tournament, LAN tournament, 100k, and we are complaining? WTF??? for real??
you dont like it? dont watch it, dont stream it, dont go. period.

>questions like who is the order of the sheep
Do you not think players wondering who is providing the money (and quite a significant sum) is only natural? If they invest weeks training for this event and then an unknown investor just decides to pull out it's a complete waste of the time they had invested

>why is this price distribution
Similar to my previous answer, players commit a large amount of time to practicing for this event, especially given it's somewhat unorthodox settings (DWL format). It's pretty disheartening that if you make it through the whole qualifier and lose the last round you get nothing (though I see Adico just posted that this is no longer the case)

>they do what they want with their money. or someone ask you why you spend your money on the things you buy?? i think we live in a free world.
This is the most dumb argument I see about money that I see all the time. Of course you should care about how people spend their money. If I buy your house and evict you will you repeat the same foolish narrative?
100k is a large sum of money and if the sponsor continues to sponsor tournaments it will have an effect on the culture and shape of aoe2 pro play. Astute criticism is important and measured feedback essential. I imagine a sponsor who wants to put on the best tournament would care equally about both, though whether either of those can often be found on aoezone is a matter for debate. This is a good example of feedback being heard and it having a positive outcome

 

https://twitter.com/OrderOfTheSheep/status/1596156833089327107

Prize pool expanded by an extra 10k to include Qualifiers.

Great news. Did not expect 10k, and now it's S tier even for people who don't qualify.

 

>questions like who is the order of the sheep
Do you not think players wondering who is providing the money (and quite a significant sum) is only natural? If they invest weeks training for this event and then an unknown investor just decides to pull out it's a complete waste of the time they had invested

>why is this price distribution
Similar to my previous answer, players commit a large amount of time to practicing for this event, especially given it's somewhat unorthodox settings (DWL format). It's pretty disheartening that if you make it through the whole qualifier and lose the last round you get nothing (though I see Adico just posted that this is no longer the case)

>they do what they want with their money. or someone ask you why you spend your money on the things you buy?? i think we live in a free world.
This is the most dumb argument I see about money that I see all the time. Of course you should care about how people spend their money. If I buy your house and evict you will you repeat the same foolish narrative?
100k is a large sum of money and if the sponsor continues to sponsor tournaments it will have an effect on the culture and shape of aoe2 pro play. Astute criticism is important and measured feedback essential. I imagine a sponsor who wants to put on the best tournament would care equally about both, though whether either of those can often be found on aoezone is a matter for debate. This is a good example of feedback being heard and it having a positive outcome

1- if you dont trust, dont sign up, dont play that tournament, no one is forcing no one to play. dont expend time in that tournament. its amazing how people think that they have the right of knowing the things that other people do or think. really amazing.
2- again, you dont like the price distribution, just dont sign. period. you are free to not sign up.
3- i dont understand your point sorry, if i sell my house, is because i want that. if you buy my house, i must leave, is that simple. im really laughing reading your argument in this point. hahahahaha

 

Really nice when organizers listen to the community and do things like this(way better than what was asked). Congratulations and thanks!

 

1- if you dont trust, dont sign up, dont play that tournament, no one is forcing no one to play. dont expend time in that tournament. its amazing how people think that they have the right of knowing the things that other people do or think. really amazing.
2- again, you dont like the price distribution, just dont sign. period. you are free to not sign up.
3- i dont understand your point sorry, if i sell my house, is because i want that. if you buy my house, i must leave, is that simple. im really laughing reading your argument in this point. hahahahaha

Life isn't just white and black, also I belive if ppl wouldnt have said anything there wouldnt have been changes, so yeah, people shouldn't whine as much maybe, but having attitude "if you dont like just don't join/watch" etc is just terrible suggestion and doesnt serve anyone, even organisers. But yeah, this change basically just proven you were wrong and you still saying same thing.

 

>questions like who is the order of the sheep
Do you not think players wondering who is providing the money (and quite a significant sum) is only natural? If they invest weeks training for this event and then an unknown investor just decides to pull out it's a complete waste of the time they had invested

>why is this price distribution
Similar to my previous answer, players commit a large amount of time to practicing for this event, especially given it's somewhat unorthodox settings (DWL format). It's pretty disheartening that if you make it through the whole qualifier and lose the last round you get nothing (though I see Adico just posted that this is no longer the case)

>they do what they want with their money. or someone ask you why you spend your money on the things you buy?? i think we live in a free world.
This is the most dumb argument I see about money that I see all the time. Of course you should care about how people spend their money. If I buy your house and evict you will you repeat the same foolish narrative?
100k is a large sum of money and if the sponsor continues to sponsor tournaments it will have an effect on the culture and shape of aoe2 pro play. Astute criticism is important and measured feedback essential. I imagine a sponsor who wants to put on the best tournament would care equally about both, though whether either of those can often be found on aoezone is a matter for debate. This is a good example of feedback being heard and it having a positive outcome

1- if you dont trust, dont sign up, dont play that tournament, no one is forcing no one to play. dont expend time in that tournament. its amazing how people think that they have the right of knowing the things that other people do or think. really amazing.
2- again, you dont like the price distribution, just dont sign. period. you are free to not sign up.
3- i dont understand your point sorry, if i sell my house, is because i want that. if you buy my house, i must leave, is that simple. im really laughing reading your argument in this point. hahahahaha

Life isn't just white and black, also I belive if ppl wouldnt have said anything there wouldnt have been changes, so yeah, people shouldn't whine as much maybe, but having attitude "if you dont like just don't join/watch" etc is just terrible suggestion and doesnt serve anyone, even organisers. But yeah, this change basically just proven you were wrong and you still saying same thing.

sorry but im not wrong, people are free to change their mind also. thats my point, people is free, and if they want to organize a tournament like this one, let them. and if they dont want to say who they are, let them.

 

sorry but im not wrong, people are free to change their mind also. thats my point, people is free, and if they want to organize a tournament like this one, let them. and if they dont want to say who they are, let them.

To continue your amazing "argument": If people want to complain, let them.

 

LeoMontero is like - It's a free world do whatever you want but what makes you think you're free to complain or criticise or ask for any information?

Seems either a troll or a kid.

 

LeoMontero is like - It's a free world do whatever you want but what makes you think you're free to complain or criticise or ask for any information?

Seems either a troll or a kid.

If he's trolling, let him, it's a free world. If he's a kid, let him be one, why force him to grow up?

 

>questions like who is the order of the sheep
Do you not think players wondering who is providing the money (and quite a significant sum) is only natural? If they invest weeks training for this event and then an unknown investor just decides to pull out it's a complete waste of the time they had invested

>why is this price distribution
Similar to my previous answer, players commit a large amount of time to practicing for this event, especially given it's somewhat unorthodox settings (DWL format). It's pretty disheartening that if you make it through the whole qualifier and lose the last round you get nothing (though I see Adico just posted that this is no longer the case)

>they do what they want with their money. or someone ask you why you spend your money on the things you buy?? i think we live in a free world.
This is the most dumb argument I see about money that I see all the time. Of course you should care about how people spend their money. If I buy your house and evict you will you repeat the same foolish narrative?
100k is a large sum of money and if the sponsor continues to sponsor tournaments it will have an effect on the culture and shape of aoe2 pro play. Astute criticism is important and measured feedback essential. I imagine a sponsor who wants to put on the best tournament would care equally about both, though whether either of those can often be found on aoezone is a matter for debate. This is a good example of feedback being heard and it having a positive outcome

1- if you dont trust, dont sign up, dont play that tournament, no one is forcing no one to play. dont expend time in that tournament. its amazing how people think that they have the right of knowing the things that other people do or think. really amazing.
2- again, you dont like the price distribution, just dont sign. period. you are free to not sign up.
3- i dont understand your point sorry, if i sell my house, is because i want that. if you buy my house, i must leave, is that simple. im really laughing reading your argument in this point. hahahahaha

Life isn't just white and black, also I belive if ppl wouldnt have said anything there wouldnt have been changes, so yeah, people shouldn't whine as much maybe, but having attitude "if you dont like just don't join/watch" etc is just terrible suggestion and doesnt serve anyone, even organisers. But yeah, this change basically just proven you were wrong and you still saying same thing.

sorry but im not wrong, people are free to change their mind also. thats my point, people is free, and if they want to organize a tournament like this one, let them. and if they dont want to say who they are, let them.

LeoMontero is like - It's a free world do whatever you want but what makes you think you're free to complain or criticise or ask for any information?

Seems either a troll or a kid.

you can ask what you want, but dont expect the answer, because is not their obligstion to give you one

 

memb, you are too big of a streamer, and too big of a member of this comunity to cry about the DWL and Warlords thing. Come on. Dont get frustrated.

But that's his personality sadly. He will find a way always to do what he does best which is whining.

 

Wasn't on aoezone for some time and now I remember why, 100k LAN Tournament get's announced and the thread is already filled with People complaining and feeling disappointed.
How dare they host a Tournament in the game we like and even a 100k LAN Tournament on top of that!

I'm rly just curious @Nicov but since you're so vocal (and other Players in previous Tournament Announcements aswell) I would like to ask you, have you or other players ever considered to initiate some sort of Meet-Up with Players, Tournament Organizers, Admins and so on to discuss how to improve Tournaments together and make them more Player-Friendly?

Cause I remember that some time ago Nili and Robo talked about how they planned exactly such a thing and (including those 2) 3 People appeared at the scheduled time/day.
Don't know if that was exaggerated back then and maybe the times have changed and such things are happening nowadays with players actually appearing, but looking at your post I guess they're not.

Would just be my guess that the time invested into writing such a post is better invested into a constructive Discussion together with all the Organizers to also make future Tournaments more Player-Friendly and improve them before they get announced.

 

Wasn't on aoezone for some time and now I remember why, 100k LAN Tournament get's announced and the thread is already filled with People complaining and feeling disappointed.

You realize that people can complain about something and still enjoy and support it right? Also this "complaining" (it's more like critiquing) has already had one positive outcome and will hopefully influence future events as well. If this forum was nothing but people rubberstamping any newly announced tournament no matter what the settings it wouldn't really have a purpose would it?

 

You realize that people can complain about something and still enjoy and support it right?

Sure, but you realize people can voice criticism without making it sound like the Organizer is the embodiment of evil for daring to organize a 100k LAN Tournament not exactly the way people want to, right?

 

Looks nice. Signed up.

 

Wasn't on aoezone for some time and now I remember why, 100k LAN Tournament get's announced and the thread is already filled with People complaining and feeling disappointed.
How dare they host a Tournament in the game we like and even a 100k LAN Tournament on top of that!

I'm rly just curious @Nicov but since you're so vocal (and other Players in previous Tournament Announcements aswell) I would like to ask you, have you or other players ever considered to initiate some sort of Meet-Up with Players, Tournament Organizers, Admins and so on to discuss how to improve Tournaments together and make them more Player-Friendly?

Cause I remember that some time ago Nili and Robo talked about how they planned exactly such a thing and (including those 2) 3 People appeared at the scheduled time/day.
Don't know if that was exaggerated back then and maybe the times have changed and such things are happening nowadays with players actually appearing, but looking at your post I guess they're not.

Would just be my guess that the time invested into writing such a post is better invested into a constructive Discussion together with all the Organizers to also make future Tournaments more Player-Friendly and improve them before they get announced.

The post you wrote is a bit ironic.

The website you maligned -- aoezone -- is the website where back and forth between streamers, pros and the greater community resulted in an increase of 10k in prize pool for qualifiers for this very tournament through feedback. What you call "complaining and feeling disappointed," ultimately resulted in a better solution for both the players and sponsor. The prizepool change alone likely added more motivation from players who might not have bothered at all participating in the qualifiers.

Had there been no platform to discuss these issues, like shart.gg, or liquipedia, the settings could have remained disagreeable. Discord is ineffective as many players do not frequent the hundreds of additional extra tournament channels that are created. For those who claim discord is superior it should be noted that the issue was not raised publicly in the Tournament Q&A on discord -- but the Tournament Q&A on Aoezone.

It should be noted that WE/MS ...I mean the sponsor...did well in recognizing an issue and ameliorating it.


---

There are various forums for feedback and discussion to take place. However, the mode you maligned is the most effective.

There is the Tournament Discord channel, there are private DM's, and there is AOEzone.
Top streamers routinely consult with each other regarding tournament settings and schedule, and I know for a fact they have discussed penalties levied on players for failing to abide by rules meant to increase the production value of the product. Admins routinely post tournament settings weeks in advance of tournaments, and they mostly go unread until invariably someone who failed to read them at all runs afoul of them. Robo has stated quite poignantly to pro players before on aoezone who have been vocal that they had/have been offered the opportunity to discuss such issues but the pulpit for some reason is always left empty.

Personally, it's in this persons opinion that that is mostly because the gripes tend to be single-issue and/or unmitigateable.

Most pro's have vested interests that they are vocal about -- and not always consistently. A player on the fringes of qualifying for major events will advocate for more qualifying opportunities/qualifier pay. A top 10 player will advocate for shorter qualifiers and shorter opening round series. Each individual streamer has ideas of what is important to their production value, and may not necessarily have need/care for input from players.


Tangentially related:

The idea of a player(s) union will never happen because the goals and priorities of the top 10 players are vastly different from those players around 10-100. Additionally, the top 10 players are largely dominated by two teams (GL & aM), who overwhelmingly benefit from the status quo. They also happen to have opposing views on many of common "issues," discussed in tournaments, making consensus even amongst each other difficult. Those who clamor loudest for a players union in general are least likely to benefit from it, as typically it is raised in the background of admin decisions and penalties. Unions in general work to enforce rules and enhance professionalism, the very something that the very vocal minority of pro players who have raised the issue seem at odds with.

The best chance for a "players union," ironically resides in that "10-100," player range in the name of increased payout for long hours/qualifiers, and the opportunity to qualify for large events as opposed to invite-only events. This will naturally be (privately,) opposed by the top 10 players who more often than not benefit from such settings.

--

tldr: aoezone still the goat for discussion of all levels of aoe2 community members, and it's not even close. Ignore what you don't want to see, it's really that easy.

 

If I had the opportunity to win $40,000 playing a video game, I wouldn't complain about how inconvenient it is. This community can be really ungrateful.

 

If I had the opportunity to win $40,000 playing a video game, I wouldn't complain about how inconvenient it is. This community can be really ungrateful.

What if the "opportunity to win $40k," was scheduled on another continent during a busy travelling season a month from announcement?
Very few pro players are full time, and have to juggle opportunity cost(s) with their real job(s) and/or streaming -- something they must take into consideration.

What if you are a top 12 player instead of a top 5 player? What if that opportunity realistically was to win the lower end of prizes, and the cost(s) associated with taking off work/travelling were higher than any realistic opportunity? Given there were/are other proven modes of tournaments, and it were highly likely the sponsor in question has supported many globally playable/non-LAN tournaments in the past- to the extent it's worth the ask of why not do the same for this one?

What if some players would also have to fly/buy a gaming laptop just to be able to compete in the LAN, assuming the cost to ship their PC would be prohibitive?

Why is streaming closed for the main event when streaming is open for the qualifiers? You want people to hype the qualifiers up but not be able to stream the main event?

It's not a matter of being grateful/ungrateful, but identifying why things are/were done the way they are when their are questionable aspects.

There is no need to discount them simply because there are a fair amount of valid questions to be asked.

It is possible to both ask the question(s) and be excited for the event. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

What if the "opportunity to win $40k," was scheduled on another continent during a busy travelling season a month from announcement?
Very few pro players are full time, and have to juggle opportunity cost(s) with their real job(s) and/or streaming -- something they must take into consideration.

What if you are a top 12 player instead of a top 5 player? What if that opportunity realistically was to win the lower end of prizes, and the cost(s) associated with taking off work/travelling were higher than any realistic opportunity? Given there were/are other proven modes of tournaments, and it were highly likely the sponsor in question has supported many globally playable/non-LAN tournaments in the past- to the extent it's worth the ask of why not do the same for this one?

What if some players would also have to fly/buy a gaming laptop just to be able to compete in the LAN, assuming the cost to ship their PC would be prohibitive?

Why is streaming closed for the main event when streaming is open for the qualifiers? You want people to hype the qualifiers up but not be able to stream the main event?

It's not a matter of being grateful/ungrateful, but identifying why things are/were done the way they are when their are questionable aspects.

There is no need to discount them simply because there are a fair amount of valid questions to be asked.

It is possible to both ask the question(s) and be excited for the event. They are not mutually exclusive.

Because life isn't fair and this is a privately sponsored tournament. Do you want the tournament to exist, or not? It's a voluntary event. I don't feel particularly bad if a player has to rearrange a flight for the opportunity.

If you're a top 12 player and don't think you can realistically win and you're not willing to make the sacrifices, don't go. If I had that opportunity in my chose profession, I'd drop everything to go, because it's my job.

 

The website you maligned -- aoezone -- is the website where back and forth between streamers, pros and the greater community resulted in an increase of 10k in prize pool for qualifiers for this very tournament through feedback. What you call "complaining and feeling disappointed," ultimately resulted in a better solution for both the players and sponsor. The prizepool change alone likely added more motivation from players who might not have bothered at all participating in the qualifiers.

Read again, my question was not about whether Feedback/Criticism is justified, I was just curious why this doesn't happen in a more mature way (and with that I obviously don't mean the viewers, but the Players/Organizers).
Of course you can say "hey but it worked", did it?

What about the other issues like the short timeframe between Announcement and qualifiers even though rumors about a big LAN Tournament at the end of the year were spread / confirmed way before?
I don't think/hope Players have to form some sort of union to maturely discuss Tournament-related stuff together with organizers, but maybe they don't actually care enough about it to become proactive, who knows.

 

Read again, my question was not about whether Feedback/Criticism is justified, I was just curious why this doesn't happen in a more mature way

I'm not gonna pretend like I know the right answer, and I don't really want to defend being obnoxious, but my impression is that this has simply became a norm in the broad gaming industry(and maybe even beyond?), because as countless various gaming-related 'dramas' have shown before -> companies and individuals react to consumers'/players' emotions, less so reasonable & polite criticism, because the latter is more easily dismissed.

You are probably right about AoE needing some sort of tournament infrastructure within which the players could provide input to all organizers, but we're at a point where even the organizers themselves are clearly unable to "organize" themselves into making a proper tournament calendar, so I feel like there's no point in hoping for the earlier too much