The Grand Melee - Announcement and Discussion

Some time ago, the secretive Order of the Sheep teased us The Grand Melee, an Age of Empires II: DE happening in Hannover at the DreamHack LAN event, from the 15th to the 17th of December.

We are now happy to deliver the full message to you.

Settings specifics
The whole event will be played using the DWL game mode, also known as 9 villagers start game mode. It will allow for quicker action, while keeping the openness and strategic diversity of the standard RM mode.

Main event
The Grand Melee main event will consist of a single elimination bracket, featuring a total of 8 players.
15th of December
Quarter finals best of 5
16th of December
Semi finals best of 7
17th of December
Third place match best of 7 and Grand final best of 9

Participation
Firstly, as per their performance in the RedBull Wololo: Legacy tournament, Liereyy and TaToH has been granted an invitation to the main event.

Secondly, the other 6 participants will have to come on top of the entirely open qualifiers happening on the 3rd and 4th of December. The registration is already open and you can sign up here on start.gg

Prize money reward
The monetary reward will amount to a whopping $100,000 split between the 8 main event players as followed:

1st place: $40,000
2nd place: $20,000
3rd place: $14,000
4th place: $10,000
5th to 8th: $4,000

Where to watch?
The whole event will be streamed on Twitch at: https://www.twitch.tv/theorderofthesheep

On top of that, the qualifiers will be completely open to broadcast, so you can catch them live at your favourite streamer’s channel on the 3rd and 4th of December!

Details for the broadcasting policy of the main event will be announced soon. Stay tuned...

Join the Discord server now!
Chat with us and get all the latest updates regarding The Grand Melee at https://discord.gg/vT9NWJJtp5

You can also use this announcement thread to discuss about the tournament and to send your questions and feedback.

See you soon!

 

I personally don't mind the joke. But 'boycott' is a call to action which generally should be avoided during a live game.

 

I personally don't mind the joke. But 'boycott' is a call to action which generally should be avoided during a live game.

i think this is a tricky one. Many people accuse him of making fun of the people dying. The boycott call makes those accusations completely fall flat and without it there might be some merit to them. Either way on his own stream either would have been perfectly fine, but bringing politics to someone elses platform when being invited as a caster can hurt that party and therefore should simply not be done, if you are intending on keeping good relations with that party.

Be it appropriate or not, it simply is not smart.

 

I liked the Tournament, but it didn't realy feel special to me.
Don't even know why, maybe it's because we just had RBWL, or maybe it's because of some "weird" aspects of the Tournament like the Organizers and the decision to not have open streaming.
Think if people cared a bit less about Nilis joke (as I do, smiled for a short time and that was it) this Tournamen would be pretty fast forgotten.

 

You're familiar with the expression "If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."?

Kind of applies here. If you have nothing good to say about any of the commentators or hosts, all very different personalities with very different styles, that's on you more than them. Ornlu is doing great. Artosis is literally one of the most respected people in esports history and you just called him a cardboard cutout. Cliches are part of casting. Go watch the French stream if you're so offended.

You're right. I was having a tough week and was unnecessarily blunt in my post.

There are some issues, but plenty of stuff to like too.

 

To post a rare gameplay comment:
Did anyone notice the crazy parity this tournament had? From 11 main event matches (8 bracket matches and 3 show matches) a crazy 9(!!) went to a decider match. That's absolutely insane to me. Only Viper - ACCM and Hera - Tatoh did not go the full length. On the one hand - if you wanna see the positive aspect - this probably speaks for the level we have in the pro scene and is incredibly entertaining as a viewer, on the other hand it makes me question a bit this ungodly trend of having a "tournament styled forced map".

If you want to get a real spicy take, with the exception of the Finals you could have played ONLY Sheepfold for every series and ended up with the exact same results.

With players picking home maps and preparing strats + the new civs being very strong on select maps it often comes down to this decider map which in my opinion wasn't making for the best games, often spiraling out of control quite early and simply not delivering much entertainment. Either take the RBL approach and make a special map but leave it up to the players to draft it, or don't use one and have good old Arabia as the prime map.

Also obligatory thanks to the South American Spanish broadcast, saved my butt and I actually learned some useful AOE phrases now lol

 

To post a rare gameplay comment:
Did anyone notice the crazy parity this tournament had? From 11 main event matches (8 bracket matches and 3 show matches) a crazy 9(!!) went to a decider match. That's absolutely insane to me. Only Viper - ACCM and Hera - Tatoh did not go the full length. On the one hand - if you wanna see the positive aspect - this probably speaks for the level we have in the pro scene and is incredibly entertaining as a viewer, on the other hand it makes me question a bit this ungodly trend of having a "tournament styled forced map".

If you want to get a real spicy take, with the exception of the Finals you could have played ONLY Sheepfold for every series and ended up with the exact same results.

With players picking home maps and preparing strats + the new civs being very strong on select maps it often comes down to this decider map which in my opinion wasn't making for the best games, often spiraling out of control quite early and simply not delivering much entertainment. Either take the RBL approach and make a special map but leave it up to the players to draft it, or don't use one and have good old Arabia as the prime map.

Also obligatory thanks to the South American Spanish broadcast, saved my butt and I actually learned some useful AOE phrases now lol

Set maps belong in the sea, if players want to play a map, they should have to draft it

 

General thought about how to deal with political messages in any context on any platform:

If something bad/evil happens in the world and someone decides to take any sort of action against that, there are two valid options:

• support it
• shut up and move on

I think it's that simple.

Just never spend time and energy on fighting someone who tries to take action against bad/evil stuff. It's a waste and it's always some sort of support for whatever bad/evil happened there.

Exception is when the action in question caused some severe damage (which surely does not apply to a satirical joke in an AoE cast).

(And another exception is obviously if you actually disagree with the stuff being bad/evil, but then you should be honest enough to make that clear and not pretend to be neutral by falling back to excuses like "sports should not be political".)

 

General thought about how to deal with political messages in any context on any platform:

If something bad/evil happens in the world and someone decides to take any sort of action against that, there are two valid options:

• support it
• shut up and move on

I think it's that simple.

Somehow feels like many of you trying to tell like Nili took some action against it or did something good there. I see you still can't understand that it's not the issue in what he said, issue is where he said it. Also not like that changed anything, especially when there was left only 1 match anyways. It was first football world cup that I barely watched( saw last few days of it) in like 20 years.

But is not about people agree with him or disagree. Similar to comment about Serbia, that they have no eco. You can say those jokes are funny, you can laugh, that's totally fine. But if you try to argue they are good jokes in big event or overall in official speech then I don't know where you have grown up, but that should be clear you can't mock other countries just for fun like with your friends inside your room. You can find many funny jokes about anything even Hitler, doesn't mean you should use them everywhere. "I found it funny" doesn't determine if joke was appropriate.

And again, that's not huge deal, I'm not one of those "cancel him now!!!", but trying to argue that it was a good place for such jokes is just silly. So yeah, similar as you said, just agree that it was unproffesional and move on, no one going to do anything nor about him nor about what he said nor I doubt there was even a single person who did boycot WC because he said it there.

 

I have said nothing about the quality of the joke, so I am not sure how that is supposed to be a response to what I wrote there.

The joke about Serbia is completely different than the one about Qatar though. Latter was a critical comment, not "mocking of another country just for fun".

 

He apologizes to the organizers because that's the only thing that could potentially get him in trouble.

And again, there was no mass construction worker deaths. Qatar does have a problem with human rights but what everyone is repeating like a parrot did not actually happen. That is what shows nobody actually cares and all will be forgotten after tommorrow.

So, the only unlikable player ends up winning it. Kinda figures for this tournament, lol. Not the one to remember for sure.

Just curious, why do people hate on Hera more than other players? I've always liked Hera, active guy who makes helpful videos on youtube and helps to grow the player base. Probably third or fourth most influential character in the community after T90 and TheViper (and possibly SotL).

 

Just curious, why do people hate on Hera more than other players? I've always liked Hera, active guy who makes helpful videos on youtube and helps to grow the player base. Probably third or fourth most influential character in the community after T90 and TheViper (and possibly SotL).

Idk. He's also the least naturally gifted player of the top 5, which to me makes him much more relatable. The man literally grinded his way from pleb to consistent top 4 in the world with nothing but straight determination.

 

Just curious, why do people hate on Hera more than other players? I've always liked Hera, active guy who makes helpful videos on youtube and helps to grow the player base. Probably third or fourth most influential character in the community after T90 and TheViper (and possibly SotL).

I like Hera as well, even from long before. He was cool and friendly when he was 18+, turned 25+ and was still cool. A rare thing honestly since ratings can change some.

Now while I’m not trying to come off two-faced here, I think it has to do with his past a bit. I do know he raged sometimes and for some maybe it was “too far”.

But what I think sealed it for some (which I assume is some minority that dislike him), was when he became a top player, he made a secret or not so secret smurf and talked legit trash to lower rated players while his nick grew in rating. Just was toxic on it. I forgot the why, but it wasn’t because he was being two-faced either. The thread is somewhere on here still. That and the “it’s just a showmatch” comment when it was for $1k or $2k were just used as an excuse to make him look bad for around 3 months on here. You know, as if people can’t make mistakes, learn from them, and become better. Some fell for it that way imo. I think we all have our good points and our things to work on, so I think most shouldn’t be judged harshly. People either forget that or don’t think of it, I dunno. I try to look more to the good side of people at least.


I also think it has something to do with streamers in general on a last note. It kind of reminds me how Charlie Sheen was nicknamed “Teflon Charlie” because every bad thing he did would just slide off of him until the Chuck Lorre thing. A lot of things streamers do/say seem to bounce off the same way. Even some really strong things. In the corporate world, you usually get canned and I think that’s what bothers that minority about streamers too (which is actually understandable to be fair).

 

19 pages. I hope I did not miss a huge drama. You know I am the number one, let's be humble top 10 drama lover person in AoeZone.

What did Nili do this time, another 100K to pocket, did he finally manage to be a player and an admin and organizator of same game, offensive words against players/crowd, drunk Daut (I like this one though), an awkward joke that nobody can tolerate, announcing announcement of an annoucement of tournament (wait that was somebody else), AOE4 bragging..

At least tell me if Nili was involved?

 

Just curious, why do people hate on Hera more than other players? I've always liked Hera, active guy who makes helpful videos on youtube and helps to grow the player base. Probably third or fourth most influential character in the community after T90 and TheViper (and possibly SotL).

He made several homophobic comments: https://www.aoezone.net/threads/when-pro-is-smurfing.156287/
And several other dramas topics where he didn't shine by his behaviour.
But we shan't digress

 

He made several homophobic comments: https://www.aoezone.net/threads/when-pro-is-smurfing.156287/
And several other dramas topics where he didn't shine by his behaviour.
But we shan't digress

Also his comments on AOE2 while leaving for AOE4.
That incident with WWP where he told his teammates about what opposition is doing after he resigned.
And his mod Roxy was kind of hated though I don't have a clue about why, there must be something.

I remember that once he stood up for Bugum against admins in controversial decision though, he has some good in it also, need to show more.

 

He made several homophobic comments: https://www.aoezone.net/threads/when-pro-is-smurfing.156287/
And several other dramas topics where he didn't shine by his behaviour.
But we shan't digress

yikes bro. First time I heard of this, I probably was inactive during 2019. That is a bit too far for Hera. Hopefully he's learnt from his mistakes, some of those comments were way too offensive, and I say that as someone who rarely gets offended.

Just curious, why do people hate on Hera more than other players? I've always liked Hera, active guy who makes helpful videos on youtube and helps to grow the player base.

Idk. He's also the least naturally gifted player of the top 5, which to me makes him much more relatable. The man literally grinded his way from pleb to consistent top 4 in the world with nothing but straight determination.

Thats the thing, I always compare Hera to Cristiano Ronaldo, a lot of hard work and perseverance. I made a similar comment in another thread. When Viper Liereyy make plays like quickwalling or microing archers, they make it look easy. While Hera can do the same things, you can feel he is working hard and pushing to his limits. Throughout the peak years of Messi-Ronaldo era, Lionel Messi dribbled like a magician, he was a natural at running at defenders with skill. Ronaldo did that too, but his skillful dribbling (atleast once he left Man United) didn't feel the same, rather felt like he was working extra hard, running more explosively than fluidly.

Same goes for hera imo. Weird analogy I know, but maybe that's why people hate Hera more than other players. It's no secret the world hates Cristiano Ronaldo more than they hate Lionel Messi. Sure Messi won more Ballon D'Ors, is more naturally gifted, and has a more likable personality. But Ronaldo is the definition of hard work, he speaks his mind, he speaks the truth. The more you hate him, the better he gets. And the best part? People are only mad at such people because they got somewhere other people couldn't, and they got there by hard work.

Hard Work >> Talent. And people love talented players because they make it look easy, while they hate hard working players out of jealousy - thinking they can also produce the same results if they work hard.

("Messi is a magician, how you dribble like that,, ankara Messi gol gol gol gol") -> ("Oh Viper is such a god how to quickwall like that")
("Ronaldo, all he does is tap ins, and runs hard i can do the same - penaldo, tapinaldo") -> ("Hera? Just clicks fast, makes 100 farms and spams hussars, I can do the same").

See the coincidence and hate?

 

Can someone point me to the directory of talented vs talentless pro players?

Do players without talent just casually win S tier tournaments in brand new RTS games while competing with Starcraft pro players? I guess Hera just practiced harder for that one?

 

Can someone point me to the directory of talented vs talentless pro players?

Do players without talent just casually win S tier tournaments in brand new RTS games while competing with Starcraft pro players? I guess Hera just practiced harder for that one?

Haha, yeah, I understand that people can get hooked up on it as Hera himself says he is not tallented/least tallented, but cmon, even though Hera is grinding more than Viper or Liereyy it doesn't mean he is less talented or much less talented. Also I wasn't there to see how much Liereyy and Viper played before becoming as good as they are, probably played tons too.

Although I can see it looking "cool", especially I remember in school being cool if you learned only little bit and did good on test, I mean kind of the image that many have about Liereyy that he barely plays and gets to finals.

However people are different, I feel like Liereyy is just such person which yes, is talented and gets bored fast, so he might train/improve fastest of them all, but at same time seems he just can't force himself to play/train more and somehow this part is never touched. People talking like "imagine if Liereyy trained/played as much as Hera". yeah well, seems he can't do that, simply can't, even if he grinds a day or two then he wants to rest and gets bored etc, ofc is my opinion only, but it seems that way.

@kalpit00 But is it reddit?(i dont read reddit) or where you get that idea from that people hate on hera? I feel like he is doing quite great, i mean looking at viewers count etc. I just feel bit confused, didn't feel this Hera hate anywhere. Although didn't see that thread of him smurfing ever either 11

However I think there might be many more reasons that we think of if you comparing Messi and Ronaldo. I mean there might be plenty people who totally agree with you and I see your point too, but I think for many it is more of that Ronaldo usually has his hair done, always a lot of attention to his style/image and not sure about now, always in some adds related to it, but as most men are lazy af they kind of dliske men who takes a lot of care of themself, I guess out of jelousy or something, but that's a thing, also not sure if he is or not, as I don't really watched him besides football, he often feels quite arrogant and faking fouls/pain etc.

While on other hand, Messi is a small guy who doesn't look athletic at all(while Ronaldo has amazing body for athlete) and often dives way further where many other players would already fall and ask for penalty, faking way less. Although I watch only Euro cup and World cup and seen many videos of him in UT, so I might have bit wrong image as there mostly just best episodes, although after lately asking people that I talk with, seems most of them watch only WC and EC, so might have similar image which might be wrong. But I personally never thought about that straight comparison of natural talent vs hard work, which obviously Ronaldo also had if achieved as much, but sure, if they both achieved similar , there might go a lot of sentiment into that Messi is way smaller guy and had to make most with better technique than with force. I guess similar as people talking about LeBron "he does everything with force etc etc".

I never liked Ronaldo for some reasos, also I think like 15 years ago or something at least in my country taking "too much" care for men was kinda considered geh, which is quite different story nowadays, but back then it was a thing. And many who disliked him then probably dislike him now, at least I think usually if people get opinion about some player they usually keep it. Is same as with LeBron, have to be ***** to not agree he is one of best ever played, although there are so many haters that they will never admit that. Although for LeBron I guess is bit different story, there are mainly MJ and KB fans that won't ever agree on ANYONE better than their beloved guy doesn't matter if it's truth or not. Although there might be Viper fans who feel same way about Hera, which actually makes sense when I think about it now, every time Viper loses there are so many ridiculous comments that "Viper didn't even try" "Viper trolled on purpose" or some even more idiotic comments, because they maybe just can't agree someone was better than their Nr. 1 so have to find some excuses. But I swear I see such comments everytime I see him lose, some might even troll at this point, but some I'm pretty sure are still serious.

 

Haha, yeah, I understand that people can get hooked up on it as Hera himself says he is not tallented/least tallented, but cmon, even though Hera is grinding more than Viper or Liereyy it doesn't mean he is less talented or much less talented. Also I wasn't there to see how much Liereyy and Viper played before becoming as good as they are, probably played tons too.

I personally was around to see Viper’s rise, and a friend of mine too. I can add a few things.

Viper basically pulled an Elon Musk, and played/studied for 15 hours a day (talked about on forums/old interview with Viper). Became the best player in around 2-2.5 years from the bottom which is one of the fastest records ever as I know (usually took someone 2 years to get only 2k for first time). The interesting thing about that is I believe he was “2300” for one of the briefest times of anyone. It was just 1-2 months or so, and mainly only because he started out as an FR player (he would lose most ara games but win FRs vs Daut as an example). I recall Liereyy saying on his stream there was a time he played like 10-15 games a day or it was 10 hours a day, similar thing kind of.

Didn’t know Hera said that about himself, I always find honesty about things like that to be cool. The more talent comes up tbh, the more I think it doesn’t exist and is more a myth or similar to a generic answer that says very little. I just hear less of it the more when I hear stories of people who are great.

Was listening to something Richard Feynman recently and he said he doesn’t think it exists, and this guy has some mind blowing intellectual stuff on him. Considers himself an ordinary person that just studied hard. Then Michael Phelps that’s the most decorated Olympian ever, who I also listened on youtube recently, talked about what he believed separated “good athletes” from people like him. It was a very interesting answer and he never mentioned talent or anything like that a single time. Don’t watch football (*resists saying soccer*), but I’d imagine it’s a very similar answer for Messi or Ronaldo.

 

Was listening to something Richard Feynman recently and he said he doesn’t think it exists, and this guy has some mind blowing intellectual stuff on him. Considers himself an ordinary person that just studied hard. Then Michael Phelps that’s the most decorated Olympian ever, who I also listened on youtube recently, talked about what he believed separated “good athletes” from people like him. It was a very interesting answer and he never mentioned talent or anything like that a single time. Don’t watch football (*resists saying soccer*), but I’d imagine it’s a very similar answer for Messi or Ronaldo.

People generally don't know why they became great at something, so therefore asking them directly is usually futile. They think it was their hard work/effort, but in truth it is mostly other (unconscious) things. You could say those things are "talent" or "aptitude".

There are many football players who worked just as hard as Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi, but who never even turned pro.

Michael Phelps became the greatest swimmer in the world due to his genetics. Sure he put in the work, but so did all the other swimmers he was competing with. He was just born with the perfect bone structure and body type for being able to swim fast on short distances. And then he received the right training and psychogical schooling at a young age that prepared him to later become a champion. That's really all there is to it.

This is not to say you cannot become great at something by working hard. You can. But you also have to work at the right things. And understanding what you need to work at and how to structure your training so as to become great, you need a talent for that sort of thing. So while Hera might lack talent in certain aspects (he doesn't "understand" the game in the same way as TheViper does), he possesses it in others, so the outcome is effectively the same for both players.

 

Then Michael Phelps that’s the most decorated Olympian ever, who I also listened on youtube recently, talked about what he believed separated “good athletes” from people like him.

Did Michael Phelps touch at all on the fact that he has double-jointed ankles that bend even more than folks who have double-jointed ankles, a torso of a man who is 6 ft. 8', has a wingspan three inches longer than his height, size 14 feet on legs that that should be on a man 8 inches shorter than he is? Or that his body produces half the lactic acid compared to most of his competitors?

Because if that wasn't his point he's selling you a book.

 

People generally don't know why they became great at something, so therefore asking them directly is usually futile. They think it was their hard work/effort, but in truth it is mostly other (unconscious) things. You could say those things are "talent" or "aptitude".

There are many football players who worked just as hard as Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi, but who never even turned pro.

Michael Phelps became the greatest swimmer in the world due to his genetics. Sure he put in the work, but so did all the other swimmers he was competing with. He was just born with the perfect bone structure and body type for being able to swim fast on short distances. And then he received the right training and psychogical schooling at a young age that prepared him to later become a champion. That's really all there is to it.

This is not to say you cannot become great at something by working hard. You can. But you also have to work at the right things. And understanding what you need to work at and how to structure your training so as to become great, you need a talent for that sort of thing. So while Hera might lack talent in certain aspects (he doesn't "understand" the game in the same way as TheViper does), he possesses it in others, so the outcome is effectively the same for both players.

There’s a lot to say here from psychological standpoints which is what mainly has me interested, but also some very contradicting things to mention.

First there’s that people don’t know why they become great. Then you say “talent” or “aptitude” are unconscious byproducts, which is to say out of complete awareness, then you mention how one becomes great which should be out of your awareness as well. Why the contradicting opinions to start? Also you say it isn’t mainly about work but then state how much of it is about work. Not trying to sound rude btw, it’s just something that’s there and I can’t ignore it.

I’ve touched up a bit on the subconscious/unconscious mind years ago, which is to enter Freudian territory since he is considered it’s father. It is basically the lowest part of the mind which can’t be examined without psychoanalysis. Even then, that is regarding only mental disorders from what I understand. Talent or aptitude if one wants to call it, likely don’t lurk there. The stuff I’ve come across on the unconscious can be anywhere from making a decent point to being completely absurd.

Like how one psychologist mentioned that someone smoking could be a signal they’re craving oral sex with a man unconsciously. That’s what it can easily enter if a point isn’t presented well when speaking of it. What you’re thinking of would be related to the subconscious, but that’s actually within awareness somewhere, just directly. It’s also more “automatic” that way. That’s more the “modern view” of it as I know. It can be examined a bit though.

People do actually know how they become great, I could list aoe examples like Chris’ talks (famous legion post) but it can be seen even with some ancient figures. Alexander the Great (supposedly undefeated in war) for example who bears the title of great. He knew things about what it took, can read about how he organized his army (famous Macedonian phalanx position for instance), and some very interesting quotes which hopefully are accurate. One concept of a quote from him is comparable to stuff in modern neuroscience. That’s even a few millennia ago when science was in a who-knows-what state too.

As for Michael Phelps, don’t know a whole lot about his body like you and Myth have mentioned. I’ll disregard him but then I’ll ask if you or Myth could disregard Richard Feynman giving basically the same point that it’s more about work and no one is born extraordinary (can even link his and Phelps video with quick searches). It’s something I’ve wondered about in recent days.

 

"Raw talent" compared to "hard work" is a weird dynamic in AoE, probably because there hasn't been a lot of genuine scientific research on what makes people good at video games, at least compared to mainstream sports. Saying that Hera "is the least naturally gifted player in the top 5" is a questionable statement. Honest question; how are we even quantifying that?

The word "naturally" seems to imply something immutable, a characteristic that is what it is and can't be altered by playing more or training harder or getting coaching. I guess Michael Phelps' genetics fall into this area as a comparison. In AoE, though, I don't really know what that would be. Are we talking about speed? If so, Hera is easily faster than everybody else in the top 5, bar maybe Liereyy. But even with something as uncomplicated as "speed", there is a whole conversation to be had about how playing more improves muscle memory and therefore makes you faster.

Hera and Liereyy might be roughly equal players on any given day, but just because Hera plays more often, does that make Liereyy more "naturally gifted", as a sort of equalizer that makes up for his lack of relative "grinding"? I don't really see how anybody can say that, because there doesn't seem to be a clear definition of what "naturally gifted" or "raw talent" means in the AoE context.

 

There’s a lot to say here from psychological standpoints which is what mainly has me interested, but also some very contradicting things to mention.

First there’s that people don’t know why they become great. Then you say “talent” or “aptitude” are unconscious byproducts, which is to say out of complete awareness, then you mention how one becomes great which should be out of your awareness as well. Why the contradicting opinions to start? Also you say it isn’t mainly about work but then state how much of it is about work. Not trying to sound rude btw, it’s just something that’s there and I can’t ignore it.

As for Michael Phelps, don’t know a whole lot about his body like you and Myth have mentioned. I’ll disregard him but then I’ll ask if you or Myth could disregard Richard Feynman giving basically the same point that it’s more about work and no one is born extraordinary (can even link his and Phelps video with quick searches). It’s something I’ve wondered about in recent days.

I didn't mean that talent necessarily is some sort of mental ability hiding in the unconscious mind. My point was simply that most people aren't aware of all the bits and pieces that make them good (or bad) at something. I believe a lot of it has to do with genetics.

I will give you an example from real life with real people. Person A became interested in business and making a lot of money. He bought a bunch of books and he thought about the subject pretty much all day for six months. Then he started his business. Within three months he could pocket/take home $50k per month, which soon after grew to double that. Eventually he got bored and retired. Not wealthy but financially secure.

Person B did the same thing as Person A. But after five years and about 10x as many hours put into it as Person A, he is still not able to make a livable wage from his business. He has so far only lost money (and a big chunk of his life).

What is the difference? It's a mixture of gut feeling/instinct and intelligence. Person A just has better ideas about things. Person B cannot compete. Maybe in another 10 years, if Person A keeps being retired and Person B keeps working hard. But there are also people with a mind (or body) like Person A and simultaneously a work ethic like Person B. I guess those are the ones who tend to reach the top. Especially in very competitive fields (like professional sports).

 

I didn't mean that talent necessarily is some sort of mental ability hiding in the unconscious mind. My point was simply that most people aren't aware of all the bits and pieces that make them good (or bad) at something. I believe a lot of it has to do with genetics.

I will give you an example from real life with real people. Person A became interested in business and making a lot of money. He bought a bunch of books and he thought about the subject pretty much all day for six months. Then he started his business. Within three months he could pocket/take home $50k per month, which soon after grew to double that. Eventually he got bored and retired. Not wealthy but financially secure.

Person B did the same thing as Person A. But after five years and about 10x as many hours put into it as Person A, he is still not able to make a livable wage from his business. He has so far only lost money (and a big chunk of his life).

What is the difference? It's a mixture of gut feeling/instinct and intelligence. Person A just has better ideas about things. Person B cannot compete. Maybe in another 10 years, if Person A keeps being retired and Person B keeps working hard. But there are also people with a mind (or body) like Person A and simultaneously a work ethic like Person B. I guess those are the ones who tend to reach the top. Especially in very competitive fields (like professional sports).

This is also where I don’t know how true this is.

I’ve listened to billionaires or multi-millionaires (in the 100s of millions) and they say why person A would be better than B. A lot don’t think someone else can’t achieve what they did. Infact many billionaires were once broke, so that alone says a lot for instance. I have heard some say there’s luck involved with becoming a billionaire, but not sure if there’s one that thinks otherwise. Dunno if all think that way.

Regarding gut feeling and intelligence as you mention, there’s still links that apply to everyone. Granted one doesn’t have literal brain damage or a severe learning disability. It is outside genetics, but I recall coming across something that the gut and brain actually talk to each other. Gut feeling or intuition is basically “digested information” and experience. As for intelligence, I actually could talk about that to a depth, but I don’t think people are looking for a small neurology lesson on here. Plus I think it won’t be taken seriously.

I don’t know really much of anything about genetics btw, which is why I take back mentioning Michael Phelps. But even for him to have building blocks, I wonder how close it is to a guarantee. One thing to win the genetic lottery as some like to say, another to win more olympic gold medals than anyone in history in any sport. Feels too simple of an answer. Wonder if he ever said anything about it.