The Grand Melee - Announcement and Discussion

MaSmOrRa · Dec 10, 2022

Festivus said:
Right, a watch party is you watching the main stream (or sometimes multiple player streams depending on the event) with your audience, so obviously you wouldn't control the point of view of the game. This is very very common in almost every other game/esport etc.

I just don't understand the viewpoint of your second line. You aren't deliberately excluding other streamers, you have an event with x number of spots for players/hosts/casters etc. Obviously no event can include every single person. You watch the event with your audience because you enjoy the game, and the event just like any other fan of the game. And people will watch that streamer, because they want to see their take on the event, and their personality. I know there is no direct comparison to AOE, but take for example a game like Valorant/COD/Fortnite/Apex. There are hundreds of teams/players for each of these, and dozens if not hundreds of hosts/casters vying for the work at the major LAN events. Most of them won't be able to play or host/cast at each event. They just simply can't include everyone. But many of the big names in those games will still have watch parties for the big events because they enjoy the game and want to share it with their audience. They don't seem to (maybe they do, but most don't show it) take not being included so personally. This is why I said that I think it because the high level talent pool in AOE is so small that there is this mindset. If there are 3 spots and 4 options to choose from, the 4th person is more likely to feel slighted, but it has to be someone. But in these other games, where there are maybe 3 spots and 50-100 people who are decently high profile with casting/hosting experience, its much easier to not take it personally I guess. I don't know, I just feel like if you truly enjoy the game, want good content to stream, and want your audience to enjoy it with you, you would still want to watch party (assuming it is possible of course) a big 100k LAN event that is a major event for the community. Its not like it wouldn't benefit the streamer too, its not ONLY 'promoting their tournament'. I'd love to try to understand this viewpoint more if you still disagree with me, this is just something I can't wrap my head around.

On the whole watch party thing, doesn't restreaming someone else's stream go against Twitch's ToS?

Snizl · Dec 10, 2022

ninja14 said:
All of this goes away if this was open streaming and people dont have to watch @Ellie4K . She has terrible game knowledge and tries to make up for it with terrible jokes, disaster combo

I dont understand the point of tagging someone to tell them they are awful...
Just letting you know, the whole "talking behind someones back" thing only applies to your friends, not to public figures.

Halleju · Dec 10, 2022

bigus.dicus.official said:
did anyone get to the bottom of who s really organising this? is it GL or is it GL using a vessel team to stop the back clash from closed streaming?

I personally believe it's some 30iq idea to keep the host a mystery to attract attention and discussions. It could be also an attempt to try to establish a new brand as an aoe tournament host, since it always looks bad to host under your own organization's name, if half of the participants also play for you. Not least everything bad isn't going to reflect on your organization, but on the proxy host. There are enough reasons to do this. But it's clear as day that GL and Nili is behind all of this.

That fish cray · Dec 10, 2022

Festivus said:
Right, a watch party is you watching the main stream (or sometimes multiple player streams depending on the event) with your audience, so obviously you wouldn't control the point of view of the game. This is very very common in almost every other game/esport etc.

I just don't understand the viewpoint of your second line. You aren't deliberately excluding other streamers, you have an event with x number of spots for players/hosts/casters etc. Obviously no event can include every single person. You watch the event with your audience because you enjoy the game, and the event just like any other fan of the game. And people will watch that streamer, because they want to see their take on the event, and their personality. I know there is no direct comparison to AOE, but take for example a game like Valorant/COD/Fortnite/Apex. There are hundreds of teams/players for each of these, and dozens if not hundreds of hosts/casters vying for the work at the major LAN events. Most of them won't be able to play or host/cast at each event. They just simply can't include everyone. But many of the big names in those games will still have watch parties for the big events because they enjoy the game and want to share it with their audience. They don't seem to (maybe they do, but most don't show it) take not being included so personally. This is why I said that I think it because the high level talent pool in AOE is so small that there is this mindset. If there are 3 spots and 4 options to choose from, the 4th person is more likely to feel slighted, but it has to be someone. But in these other games, where there are maybe 3 spots and 50-100 people who are decently high profile with casting/hosting experience, its much easier to not take it personally I guess. I don't know, I just feel like if you truly enjoy the game, want good content to stream, and want your audience to enjoy it with you, you would still want to watch party (assuming it is possible of course) a big 100k LAN event that is a major event for the community. Its not like it wouldn't benefit the streamer too, its not ONLY 'promoting their tournament'. I'd love to try to understand this viewpoint more if you still disagree with me, this is just something I can't wrap my head around.

I'm no streamer so might have this wrong but there is a difference between a watch party and open casting.
For lots of tournaments you have the official stream and then lots of other casters also streaming it. For this they can just rebroadcast the official channel which gives less control of the quality. There is obviously a difference otherwise why would they restrict it?

otw_Da · Dec 10, 2022

malamadre said:
You are one of the specials i see. I know google buddy, the comment is in reference that this is FREAKING AOE2 TOURNAMENT not a Starcraft event.

You are not one of the specials I see.
Thats how they did it back then in World Cyber Games. Alot of games, alot of different people. No incest bubble - thats how you attract new and old people to a game. If people from other genres or games watching AoE tournamnt because of people like Artosis is that a great success. Because there will be people watching it and see what they enjoy and want to try out too

And yes it is a AoE tournament and? Everyone from the late 90s and early 2000s knows Age of Empires, literally everyone. So lets show them who forgot that this game is still doing great, delivering great content and amazing games.

And just for me do me a favour im not writing that to fight with you - I just want to unterstand your argument. Because I dont get it? "ITs aN AOe tOurnAment!" its not enough for my brain.
Is it not great if a community can look over the edge?
So could you argue if you are a classic music fan you should only listen to classic music?
Or I remember that "Riley "RLYKNGHT" Knight" didnt came from AoE community but I think this gentlemen fits great to our warm strategy "basement room".

ltm · Dec 10, 2022

Probably not worth it to broadcast a watch party for streamers, even if it's technically possible to just pull up the stream on mute and cast it.

If they want closed streaming and as a result less attention for their event let them have it their way. I guess whoever is providing the cash is fine with it so nothing wrong with it. Same for what caster/host is hired, there is no obligation to be inclusive - on the other hand they have to deal with people trashing their choices or crying for Memb (who i would love to see there myself too for example).

govs · Dec 10, 2022

malamadre said:
Some actual good Drama! good one guys
Also...
Artosis??
Also who the **** is he? what the hell is doing hosting the tournament?

Anyways, like some dude said, the wasted potential of this tournament is in another level...

Microsoft should take responsibility to host an actual aoe2 event. Throwing money at prizepools and letting organizations just do ****ing whatever wont be a good plan on the long run.

Its my private money that sponsors most of this, I bow and understand the massive criticism about private people spending a lot of money on what they want. I therefore have decided to cancel the event, and give the prizemoney to Roblox instead. That should make all Plebs Happy!

malamadre · Dec 10, 2022

otw_Da said:
You are not one of the specials I see.
Thats how they did it back then in World Cyber Games. Alot of games, alot of different people. No incest bubble - thats how you attract new and old people to a game. If people from other genres or games watching AoE tournamnt because of people like Artosis is that a great success. Because there will be people watching it and see what they enjoy and want to try out too

And yes it is a AoE tournament and? Everyone from the late 90s and early 2000s knows Age of Empires, literally everyone. So lets show them who forgot that this game is still doing great, delivering great content and amazing games.

And just for me do me a favour im not writing that to fight with you - I just want to unterstand your argument. Because I dont get it? "ITs aN AOe tOurnAment!" its not enough for my brain.
Is it not great if a community can look over the edge?
So could you argue if you are a classic music fan you should only listen to classic music?
Or I remember that "Riley "RLYKNGHT" Knight" didnt came from AoE community but I think this gentlemen fits great to our warm strategy "basement room".

Ok buddy, next time we will have Bad Bunny introduce a Classical Music Concert.

Festivus · Dec 10, 2022

MaSmOrRa said:
On the whole watch party thing, doesn't restreaming someone else's stream go against Twitch's ToS?

I'd imagine its only against TOS if you rebroadcast it, with no additional content on top essentially acting as if it is your own original content. If you are there watching and reacting to it I'd assume that is under fair use just like much Youtube content is other people reacting to copyrighted material, music, videos and such, because it is fair use to add their take to it. Ultimately though I am not 100% sure which is why I am posing these questions. There is obviously some limits, watch parties of events already on twitch is commonplace, but twitch will actively take down anyone trying to have a watch party of content you would have to pay for otherwise, such as a PPV boxing match or a full movie. I'm not sure exactly where all the lines are. AOE is the only community I know which seems to have the mindset of 'If I can't be directly involved I would rather not be involved at all', and I'm just trying to understand both the mindset and the rules and what is allowed or isn't.

That fish cray said:
I'm no streamer so might have this wrong but there is a difference between a watch party and open casting.
For lots of tournaments you have the official stream and then lots of other casters also streaming it. For this they can just rebroadcast the official channel which gives less control of the quality. There is obviously a difference otherwise why would they restrict it?

Sure there is a difference. In one you would have to watch the main braodcast and/or player perspectives if they can stream them and react to it, in the other you would have access to to spectate the games and control your perspective. My questions are to understand why AOE is the only community I know that seems to take the first option so negatively/personally and/or if there are rules in this or other tournaments that are actually trying to prevent this sort of thing.

robo · Dec 10, 2022

Festivus said:
I'd imagine its only against TOS if you rebroadcast it, with no additional content on top essentially acting as if it is your own original content. If you are there watching and reacting to it I'd assume that is under fair use just like much Youtube content is other people reacting to copyrighted material, music, videos and such, because it is fair use to add their take to it. Ultimately though I am not 100% sure which is why I am posing these questions. AOE is the only community I know which seems to have the mindset of 'If I can't be directly involved I would rather not be involved at all', and I'm just trying to understand both the mindset and the rules and what is allowed or isn't.

It is against TOS to restream someone else's stream without permission.

https://safety.twitch.tv/s/article/Community-Guidelines?language=en_US#15IllegalActivity

Intellectual Property Rights
In order to protect the intellectual property rights of others and comply with intellectual property laws, we do not allow users to share content on their Twitch channel that they do not own or otherwise have rights to share.

For example, without permission from the rights holders or unless otherwise permitted by law, you may not share:

Other Twitch creators’ content or content from other sites

Some other esports allow watch parties, but afaik that is only allowed for specific streamers who have express permission to do so (eg. large Valorant content creators and VCT https://www.oneesports.gg/valorant/valorant-champions-2022-watch-party/)

Adico · Dec 10, 2022

The organizers made a short FAQ on Reddit they are taking questions there as well.

Festivus · Dec 10, 2022

robo said:
It is against TOS to restream someone else's stream without permission.

https://safety.twitch.tv/s/article/Community-Guidelines?language=en_US#15IllegalActivity

Some other esports allow watch parties, but afaik that is only allowed for specific streamers who have express permission to do so (eg. large Valorant content creators and VCT https://www.oneesports.gg/valorant/valorant-champions-2022-watch-party/)

Interesting, good info. I'm guessing some of this does come down to how big the event is, and how aggressive the host organization is in terms of trying to prevent this. For something like The Game Awards that just happened, everyone was doing a watch party, so I'd assume they must have said that was OK? I have also heard of what you link to in terms of official watch parties, but those do tend to be only for the MAJOR events, CDL, VCT, AGS etc. I'm aware of MANY smaller tournaments in say games like Apex, Fortnite, COD, where virtually the entire community will switch between POVs of the Main Broadcast, and player POVs if it's an online event. I don't know for sure, but I can't imagine everyone gets permission from each player/the host in those cases.

I guess that leads back to a question about his tournament specifically, does 'closed' mean they are actively trying to prevent this type of watch party content, or not? And if so, I think that sucks.

MadeByJoe · Dec 10, 2022

Festivus said:
I'd imagine its only against TOS if you rebroadcast it, with no additional content on top essentially acting as if it is your own original content. If you are there watching and reacting to it I'd assume that is under fair use just like much Youtube content is other people reacting to copyrighted material, music, videos and such, because it is fair use to add their take to it. Ultimately though I am not 100% sure which is why I am posing these questions. There is obviously some limits, watch parties of events already on twitch is commonplace, but twitch will actively take down anyone trying to have a watch party of content you would have to pay for otherwise, such as a PPV boxing match or a full movie. I'm not sure exactly where all the lines are.

Unless Twitch TOS allow watch parties of your content when streaming there, any stream is still protected under copyright law. And watch parties are absolutely a violation of that in most countries. In Europe and NA it surely is.

Same goes for almost all reaction videos on YouTube. Fair use means you take small parts of something and make your own content, something new, out of it. Also called citation right or something along those lines in a lot of places.

Viper playing specific parts of a cast and analyzing it? Fair use.
Viper letting T90's stream play and talking to chat over it? Not fair use.

Now if the games themselves are protected under copyright law and thereby other people are not allowed to cast them even if they get them somehow I can not answer. I would be surprised if such a case came in front of a judge yet.

govs · Dec 10, 2022

robo said:
It is against TOS to restream someone else's stream without permission.

https://safety.twitch.tv/s/article/Community-Guidelines?language=en_US#15IllegalActivity

Some other esports allow watch parties, but afaik that is only allowed for specific streamers who have express permission to do so (eg. large Valorant content creators and VCT https://www.oneesports.gg/valorant/valorant-champions-2022-watch-party/)

Robo, as a lawyer we smile. According to European law we can both re-stream and Sue Amazon if we get cut-off. Anglo-Saxian law is not valid outside the commonwealth, (we cant be sued, but we can and will sue). Amazon/Twitch is already under the lupe of the FTC, they dont care about our little game. Get things straight plz (And put your glasses on plz).

MaSmOrRa · Dec 10, 2022

govs said:
Robo, as a lawyer we smile. According to European law we can both re-stream and Sue Amazon if we get cut-off. Anglo-Saxian law is not valid outside the commonwealth, (we cant be sued, but we can and will sue). Amazon/Twitch is already under the lupe of the FTC, they dont care about our little game. Get things straight plz (And put your glasses on plz).

Well yes, but Twitch can still easily ban the offending streamers...

Michaerbse · Dec 10, 2022

MadeByJoe said:
Now if the games themselves are protected under copyright law and thereby other people are not allowed to cast them even if they get them somehow I can not answer. I would be surprised if such a case came in front of a judge yet.

There was the case in chess where ultimately chess24 was allowed to comment on the World Championship(?) match. They obviously couldn't show videos from the venue but showing a board with the moves that were made and add a cast to that was deemed OK. Video games could fall into the same category...?

(Independent of that I don't think anyone should try to violate streaming rules of a tournament. It would be pretty bad style and would probably have consequences)

govs · Dec 10, 2022

MaSmOrRa said:
Well yes, but Twitch can still easily ban the offending streamers...

Yes, but as their pseudo-legal silly contract is not valid outside the commonlaw judicial system, and as our european law states it. They cannot sue us but we can sue them due to loss of income. There is no NDA that was ever valid in Europe, there is no law against telling your co-worker what you earn. People believe in strange, non- factual claims from stupid Companies. I have signed numerous NDA:s , broken them all and Im still here

SuperskinnyBLS · Dec 11, 2022

I have to say this . Some people feel very entitled ; )

akku · Dec 11, 2022

Festivus said:
Right, a watch party is you watching the main stream (or sometimes multiple player streams depending on the event) with your audience, so obviously you wouldn't control the point of view of the game. This is very very common in almost every other game/esport etc.

I just don't understand the viewpoint of your second line. You aren't deliberately excluding other streamers, you have an event with x number of spots for players/hosts/casters etc. Obviously no event can include every single person. You watch the event with your audience because you enjoy the game, and the event just like any other fan of the game. And people will watch that streamer, because they want to see their take on the event, and their personality. I know there is no direct comparison to AOE, but take for example a game like Valorant/COD/Fortnite/Apex. There are hundreds of teams/players for each of these, and dozens if not hundreds of hosts/casters vying for the work at the major LAN events. Most of them won't be able to play or host/cast at each event. They just simply can't include everyone. But many of the big names in those games will still have watch parties for the big events because they enjoy the game and want to share it with their audience. They don't seem to (maybe they do, but most don't show it) take not being included so personally. This is why I said that I think it because the high level talent pool in AOE is so small that there is this mindset. If there are 3 spots and 4 options to choose from, the 4th person is more likely to feel slighted, but it has to be someone. But in these other games, where there are maybe 3 spots and 50-100 people who are decently high profile with casting/hosting experience, its much easier to not take it personally I guess. I don't know, I just feel like if you truly enjoy the game, want good content to stream, and want your audience to enjoy it with you, you would still want to watch party (assuming it is possible of course) a big 100k LAN event that is a major event for the community. Its not like it wouldn't benefit the streamer too, its not ONLY 'promoting their tournament'. I'd love to try to understand this viewpoint more if you still disagree with me, this is just something I can't wrap my head around.

Seems like the watch party thing doesn't work.
I don't properly understand myself, but it seems like the OG streamer needs to allow this.

The closed stream is an absolute disaster IMO, there is no way around it.
I keep hearing "but other big esports do the same". Even in DoTA2, a much bigger sports scene, my fan content creators can stream the "TI", so I can go watch there.

SuperskinnyBLS said:
I have to say this . Some people feel very entitled ; )

Wow you're back 11

covaccino99 · Dec 11, 2022

govs said:
Robo, as a lawyer we smile. According to European law we can both re-stream and Sue Amazon if we get cut-off. Anglo-Saxian law is not valid outside the commonwealth, (we cant be sued, but we can and will sue). Amazon/Twitch is already under the lupe of the FTC, they dont care about our little game. Get things straight plz (And put your glasses on plz).

If someone uses the content (assumin it’s copyright protected, which is ought to be) at least Swedish law oblige that someone to pay a fee for it though? Never heard about what you just describe

Springoftheking · Dec 11, 2022

When you organize LAN-event, you need invest more money in organizing, and one of the best way to earn money back is make event streaming closed and force audience watch your channel, where are your brand and sponsor's ads displayed. 3 NAC:s and 2 Red Bull LANs were also closed streaming, so it already standard practice in AoE 2.

We've had big prize pool online tournaments with open streaming, when the game's publisher Microsoft, which's interest is to promote the game, has been sponsoring prize pools.

archxeon · Dec 11, 2022

Springoftheking said:
When you organize LAN-event, you need invest more money in organizing, and one of the best way to earn money back is make event streaming closed and force audience watch your channel, where are your brand and sponsor's ads displayed. 3 NAC:s and 2 Red Bull LANs were also closed streaming, so it already standard practice in AoE 2.

We've had big prize pool online tournaments with open streaming, when the game's publisher Microsoft, which's interest is to promote the game, has been sponsoring prize pools.

Even memb's first few tournaments, you had to pay to stream. Even then I thought it was fair for him to ask that because he was operating at a loss (as far as I understand from his stream).

If you want to establish your stream through the way of a tournament, this makes sense. If you want to establish the tournament, open streaming makes more sense in aoe2 scene.

One of the reasons open streaming became the norm was because it meant streamers could grow collectively when the viewership was much smaller.

My guess is the total viewership of the tournament will be about half of what could have been possible ( being overly optimistic) but the viewership on their channel will be most likely be double of what they'd have with open streaming.

Chanson · Dec 11, 2022

The idea that closed streaming is necessary to capture viewers seems more like an excuse to make up for poor planning and advertising. You perhaps lose a few thousand viewers to Memb and T90, depending on what he feels like casting, and a few hundred total to the other streamers and I’d imagine many of those viewers would view the official stream as well.

The agreement with the sponsors is another issue. A more robust arrangement for licensing tournament streams may be needed to protect the benefits we’ve seen with open streaming.

bigus.dicus.official · Dec 12, 2022

what happens to future s-tier tournaments now? if someone organises a 50k tourney, would they let these sheep guys stream it? or are they doing this knowing they dont need that and can rely on their deep pockets?

AkeNo · Dec 12, 2022

bigus.dicus.official said:
what happens to future s-tier tournaments now? if someone organises a 50k tourney, would they let these sheep guys stream it? or are they doing this knowing they dont need that and can rely on their deep pockets?

well, they don't have their own casters and I don't think they'd want to cover tournaments other than their own ones in the future

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