The 50 best Age of Empires 2 players of all time as voted by expert players (#5 to #1 is up)

[SouFire]

I feel your arguments are the same as saying Maradona don't belong to the best football players in history because he only had 2-3 really strong years and you really nitpick what you want and ignore facts.

Or you maybe think your own Carlos vela is a greater player then Maradona because he play in the modern game and had a longer career?


I knew you would not, it was more to show you that your statement here was wrong about they just staying 1-2 years and mentioning that they actually won what they came for since you said



This is also false, Koven held #1 from 99 intill he retierd (02 according to OP list) then Halen took it, Grunt as far as I know never held 1, but he had some high rating nicks and won tournaments. When they all changed game Chris took it, then it was between him and Daut intill Viper.

Grunt also played from AoK intill 03 (this is 4 years not 1 or 2) then he dominated the other pros in other games intill 08-09 (AoE3 TAD expansion). And according to OP list he were also AoC active in these years so again much longer then "1 or 2 years". And yea they were not evenly matched, again Koven was undisputed 1 as long as he stayed, you can throw in 10 more nicks who the nr 2 was (Chris, Geek, Fire, Grunt, Halen, Capoch, RD_Champion, Jordan, kmkm+++ take your pick)

And no it is not the same as saying Viper is AoE4 legend, if Viper had played and held top ranking + won all the biggest tournaments in AoE4 for several years and set the meta each patch you could say it was the same, Viper tournament win was what 1 week into AoE4, Grunt made the meta for years in AoE3.


I think you joined the scene under voobly when the game was "dead" and had 1500 people online max and underestimate how many players that played AoC on the zone, it was really buzzing and alive and you can compare it more with today then the voobly years.

That a player like pG_fire don't even make the top 50 or get a mention I find criminal when I see alot of the other nicks on this list, he like Grunt were competive and changed games for money after AoC and won WSG AoM and later became WC3 pro, but AoC was his original game (Like Chris he was teenage prodigy, going to the top very very young 13-14 yo).

I think when you watch their game you compaire them with Viper 2013 and not seeing them for the time they were played.

Like the Kkab post you mention I also remember it differently, yea they got payed and Chris made drama about it, but I also remember KKab saying Halen did not take it seriously because he were already rich and played drunk every night for practce, and then you say Koven grinded games for a year like he tried to go top, he was sponsored to play a few games a month and this is what he played as I remember it, if 5 games a month is "grinding" ok, but this I can be wrong about since I were not very active in the scene around that time.

Humm if you want to know more about koven playing after the tyrant big sponsor, you have to summon funito the smurf tracker, koven rarely used his main nick for 1x1, but he was still active for several months, i am almost sure he kept playing for a year after those events.

To me zone in his last year wasn't that impressive, around 1200 players simultaneously but some of them playing cs or dm in the same lobby, there were only 4 big rooms with 300 cap limit, the other lobbies were empty with 4 users those with the agincourt naming, who knows maybe during the 2001-2004 there were more users but i am not sure as internet wasn't that accesible for gaming back then globally.

If you really believe that halen played drunk or that koven played 5 times in a month then you are still having the picture of those players being gods of this game and i highly doubt you would see them as normal early gamers and not something super special, while those players were living for gaming the other pros like daut had to stop their education to compete against his family will, then again not the same conditions and lets not forget the third world had no access to a good internet or even decent computers during the first aok-aoc years.

Just compare them to themarinelord or other full time gamers in aoe4, it isn't about them being the best players and the most gifted, they are just the players that can spare more time and take it like an investment unlike the rest of the players, imo they are just sharks waiting for the next big prey.

 

[Funito]

I don't want to go long cuz i'm quite busy, but well:

-Koven was well known as N1 as far as i know from 2000 till mid 2002, yet his tourney results didn't match with that (he only won Arbalet Cup 1 and some disappointing results like losing to a low 2k on WCG 2001). I think he was super gifted in terms of gaming skills but sometimes his decision making was quite off, but from recs from the time he looked top 3 in arabia for sure by mid 2002 and in the 2001 ones he looked like the best. Yet in mixed maps there were better players but on arabia he looked the more complete overall, being strong in all ages. About him there was some part of myth since very few recs were available but many agreed he was the very best by far (guys like kkab, rd and halen used to say that) while some didn't agree. But people used to talk about him as an inmortal god so maybe it made him look bigger than what actually was. kkab used to said he was the biggest talent he ever witnessed, I don’t know if he changed his opinion after Viper emerged. Yet kkab to me looked quite biased with his friends.
Koven quit in mid 2002 and he came back in 2004, played WCL 2 and 3: his comeback wasn't as great as expected for a goat standard. He struggled at 2100-2300 rate, so not yet there to compete with the tops at the time (daut, rukie, ruso, chris, IORI, geek and so on). I even played some games with him. Yet hard to judge without knowing the circumstances. kkab said military affected his gaming skills when he was quite criticized for losing wcl3 on QF.
Then he came back around 2014 till 2016?, can't remember for how long he played: yeah he got like 12 smurfs accounts yet not thaaaat good imo at least, again, for a goat standard. He probably was a bit old also (around 36?). He only made public his best elo one, that hitted like 2280 and reached main page. Maybe with other smurfs he was just trying things and not playing for winning, but he didn't look much far from solid 2k which was more than last voobly days but not that much. I remember him losing 7-0 vs nicov and there he looked still very far from tops. But i don't know if he being playing something else after that long break, since coming back to gaming is different than switching from other games (like at least Capoch did for many years, yet i think Capoch is more talented). And you don’t know the circumstances. Maybe he played after long work journeys, maybe he got kids shouting at home. I didn't play a single videogame for 7 years and i know some things you just lose forever. Is not like Liereyy switching from Dota just not playing.

-Halen and grunt also played many games during WCL 7 (2011) for like 6 months or more to reach the level to help Daut and Kkab win the tourney. I 100% confirmed it because actually i said to halen i knew he was him (i was a psychopathic fan) and kkab asked me to stop bullying rusty Halen smurfing his smurfs. Their accounts were quite easy to find back then. They both become quite strong even for 1vs1 by the end of the tourney with Halen for example winning his 1vs1 match vs Tim who was around top 5-10 at the time. Yet they were playing after being many years out (Halen played for poz wcl6 (2006-2007?) but looked quite rusty there). I don't know if during WCL 1,2,4 winning days they used to train much 1vs1 but sure they grinded TG more than most. No, they weren't a force of pure talent, they liked to train secretly. And they cared about their reputation. But imo if they trained 1vs1 they could match daut and chris during those years, especially Halen who during wcl4 was the best tg player of the world. Grunt finished 3rd in the only s tier he played (BTA) and I don’t know if he trained 1vs1 for it, since it was announced right before it started.

But you can still think of this: if two players shared same time, used to play more or less the same amount of games and let's say A was better than B but he stopped playing, then B becomes a top 10 player, is not hard to think that A could be at B level, a bit worse or better, if he kept playing or if he tried hard when coming back. But then again, nothing guarantees that.

 

[Rayne]

kkab used to said he was the biggest talent he ever witnessed, I don’t know if he changed his opinion after Viper emerged. Yet kkab to me looked quite biased with his friends.

It’s always cool when you talk about old times. Maybe you didn’t want to go in long, but this got a bit interesting for me.

I do believe Viper had a serious effect on kkab somewhere. There was an old forum post by kkab on aoczone or a DeX clan leak that made its way there 11 (why was stuff always leaked with him?) where kkab said something like: “Aoe was only a macro game before and I was convinced it always would be. But then Viper came along, I saw his play and he changed my mind.” That’s unfortunately not 100% verbatim, but I definitely recall the changed my mind part. That one is 100%. It took me by a big surprise, so Viper definitely had a serious effect on him. It would make sense that it would extend elsewhere too, because he’d certainly know he’d be biased then if he still considered Koven the greatest to walk the Earth. Basically said Viper changed the core of the game, which Viper did in some ways.

Then he came back around 2014 till 2016?, can't remember for how long he played: yeah he got like 12 smurfs accounts yet not thaaaat good imo at least, again, for a goat standard. He probably was a bit old also (around 36?). He only made public his best elo one, that hitted like 2280 and reached main page. Maybe with other smurfs he was just trying things and not playing for winning, but he didn't look much far from solid 2k which was more than last voobly days but not that much. I remember him losing 7-0 vs nicov and there he looked still very far from tops.

I do believe he did come back in 2014, around springtime (I’d like to say the month of April). I know this because I believe a friend told me like, “Hey omg, do you know Koven is back?! It’s the real one too!” He was around 1884 that time, and my friend wanted me to play him which I did. Unfortunately I was retiring around the same month, so I couldn’t keep up with his progress and after retirement, was only about 20-30% into aoe, which meant randomly dling games, peeking at leaderboard, and watching some streams. Last time was around 2016 when he was 2250 playing Spring, but I heard he was in the 2200 range long before. So dunno when exactly.

7-0 vs Nicov, man, nowhere near as bad as Vivi being 2200+ before he became 2500 and like 0-30 or in total, 4-60 or something like that. Maybe even more losses for Vivi. Nothing like Mr. Cov squatting and taking a massive crap over a 2200’s hard earned rating.

This is actually kind of interesting though on a serious note, because of the differences in a 22+ or even someone in the low 23+ range compared to someone like Nicov at least back then (I dunno about now). And personally I don’t think it necessarily detracts from Koven still accomplishing something great imo, only other old legend being better was probably Iori (Iori did pass 23+ on return). Because it brings 3 names to my mind before they became great. Vivi being one (who lost to Nicov so much before breaking 2500), Riut (before he became “the Riut”), and a more forgotten name, Bling. Maybe people know/remember Vivi’s story a bit now, but some may not know Riut and Bling. I dunno if you know/remember too Funito.

Like, I remember they were both in 2200 range for awhile, and would always play vs Chris. I can recall both losing what felt like 9.9/10 games vs Chris for so long. I think over period of few months. Then literally one random day, they start winning some. Not a whole set, but I recall scores suddenly being like 3-1 or like 3-2. Then both names suddenly get into 23+ range and eventually both broke 2400. It was too easy to always think the “talent answer” for those guys in hindsight, I think now it is more the effect of playing vs an actual top player and not being afraid to lose 10/10 games for so long before things change as long as someone wants to get better. It’s invaluable study material if someone like 22+ wants to break into that elite range. So it makes me wonder about Koven actually, but like you said at end of your post, there is no guarantee. Personally, I’d like to believe it since he already had what it took to get almost one level below. Just an unbiased opinion (I think?) but based off of those 3 and that he used to be #1. I wonder why he just randomly stopped one day too.

Also even though this is unrelated, in terms of change (related kkab/Viper impact/general game evolution), what is interesting about two of those names, Bling and Riut, is they helped progress “micro” before Viper came along. Daut and Chris both dominated for so long, but in their prime neither had super good xbow micro for example. Then came along Bling first in 2007 or so being 24+ after many losses vs Chris and micro’d xbows better than literally anyone as long as there was no lag (lag was diff story 11). I remember him tilting Igloo out of the universe in a 1v1 when Igloo tried knights vs Bling’s xbow. Then came Riut in 2009/2010, who micro’d literally every unit better than everyone, far superior than Bling even. Insane with scouts (Dreams afraid and made 7 spears vs 3 Riut scouts for example), or mixed sc and archer combo, then also xbows. Then came Viper who I remember my friend summed up as: “he had Daut’s eco and Riut’s micro.” Anyway, that’s a random drift though but was just in my head. I also wrote more than I intended. (Then after Viper is Liereyy I suppose)


P.S. I just wanted to say I still enjoyed/treasure our chats we had about Koven and the gang 2 years ago (rarely had convos like that with someone skilled too). It’s one of the reasons this topic has made me rather chatty, and why I felt more compelled than normal to post again. Didn’t expect you to come out from wherever you’ve been.

 

[Funito]

7-0 vs Nicov, man, nowhere near as bad as Vivi being 2200+ before he became 2500 and like 0-30 or in total, 4-60 or something like that. Maybe even more losses for Vivi. Nothing like Mr. Cov squatting and taking a massive crap over a 2200’s hard earned rating.

This is actually kind of interesting though on a serious note, because of the differences in a 22+ or even someone in the low 23+ range compared to someone like Nicov at least back then (I dunno about now).

Maybe is not the best example but was more about the feeling of how far he looked on those games (i was out of aoe but watched for curiosity) rather than him losing 7-0. I believe there had being some players that could lose 7-0 to Nico and then become top 16 in 1 year. But he looked as someone willing to improve no matter how bad he lost some games which is something many can't bare.

Because it brings 3 names to my mind before they became great. Vivi being one (who lost to Nicov so much before breaking 2500), Riut (before he became “the Riut”), and a more forgotten name, Bling. Maybe people know/remember Vivi’s story a bit now, but some may not know Riut and Bling. I dunno if you know/remember too Funito.

Like, I remember they were both in 2200 range for awhile, and would always play vs Chris. I can recall both losing what felt like 9.9/10 games vs Chris for so long. I think over period of few months. Then literally one random day, they start winning some. Not a whole set, but I recall scores suddenly being like 3-1 or like 3-2. Then both names suddenly get into 23+ range and eventually both broke 2400. It was too easy to always think the “talent answer” for those guys in hindsight, I think now it is more the effect of playing vs an actual top player and not being afraid to lose 10/10 games for so long before things change as long as someone wants to get better. It’s invaluable study material if someone like 22+ wants to break into that elite range. So it makes me wonder about Koven actually, but like you said at end of your post, there is no guarantee. Personally, I’d like to believe it since he already had what it took to get almost one level below. Just an unbiased opinion (I think?) but based off of those 3 and that he used to be #1. I wonder why he just randomly stopped one day too.

Well both Riut and Bling become experts when i was at my best, so i remember them well. I used to play a lot with Bling. He was certainly a top 5 talent of the players that emerged during those years imo (2008-2010?) (way better than others more hyped for example goodboy) and he improved a lot during Master of Huns days. Then he became SC2 as far as i know and he played DE for some months after like 10 years of no playing reaching 2.3k+ quite fast, similar to Capoch, which was impresive, without even knowing the tech tree of most civs.
And Riut was my favourite player back then and the only one i couldn't beat at my highest peak (around 2011). In terms of gaming skill he was the most talented probably, but well, he was always behind Viper in his best years, he was the first player to complete marvel me with pure skill. The speed of his improvement was also stunning, joining master of huns as random 2k and ending by the end of the tourney 2nd only behind Daut, then winning BCC3. He was a proof of one the very talented guys overcoming the 2.4k level quite fast, at least in many cases (Riut, Hera, Larry, Viper, Mr Yo)
And btw IORI still plays but he don't seem to care about competing (he plays many random nomad games without caring about meta). But he isn't personally in my list of most talented guys of the old days. I think he peaked quite fast and then didn't keep on improving and his tourney results started to fall after some years (i remember Geek destroying him in MVP 2 when geek only played for few months back in 2005, way more talented imo). And if you knew how to play vs him wasn't that hard to stop (i mean i was way worse than him but the few times i played ladder vs him i won, similar to goodboy).

 

[Rayne]

Maybe is not the best example but was more about the feeling of how far he looked on those games (i was out of aoe but watched for curiosity) rather than him losing 7-0. I believe there had being some players that could lose 7-0 to Nico and then become top 16 in 1 year. But he looked as someone willing to improve no matter how bad he lost some games which is something many can't bare.


Well both Riut and Bling become experts when i was at my best, so i remember them well. I used to play a lot with Bling. He was certainly a top 5 talent of the players that emerged during those years imo (2008-2010?) (way better than others more hyped for example goodboy) and he improved a lot during Master of Huns days. Then he became SC2 as far as i know and he played DE for some months after like 10 years of no playing reaching 2.3k+ quite fast, similar to Capoch, which was impresive, without even knowing the tech tree of most civs.
And Riut was my favourite player back then and the only one i couldn't beat at my highest peak (around 2011). In terms of gaming skill he was the most talented probably, but well, he was always behind Viper in his best years, he was the first player to complete marvel me with pure skill. The speed of his improvement was also stunning, joining master of huns as random 2k and ending by the end of the tourney 2nd only behind Daut, then winning BCC3. He was a proof of one the very talented guys overcoming the 2.4k level quite fast, at least in many cases (Riut, Hera, Larry, Viper, Mr Yo)
And btw IORI still plays but he don't seem to care about competing (he plays many random nomad games without caring about meta). But he isn't personally in my list of most talented guys of the old days. I think he peaked quite fast and then didn't keep on improving and his tourney results started to fall after some years (i remember Geek destroying him in MVP 2 when geek only played for few months back in 2005, way more talented imo). And if you knew how to play vs him wasn't that hard to stop (i mean i was way worse than him but the few times i played ladder vs him i won, similar to goodboy).

Ah I see. Yeah, Koven definitely gave me the impression that he had that mindset. It’s definitely very hard, but players who had that were always the ones that broke into the top level. Seen it more than a few times. I actually remembered more names too aside from those two. There’s also Viper (his clashes vs Daut when he first hit 2400 then dropped 100 points and remained 2300 for months), ACCM (2200-2300 vs Slam for awhile and Slam won 9/10 games), Bact I think (can’t recall his complete story, but remember him when he was 2k/2200), Slam (also 2200 for a while but was never afraid to fight vs Viper/Daut), and I’m sure there’s even more names I could add to that list if I went deeper into thought. Don’t know everyone’s journey though. Jordan could be there somewhere too, remember him from Ruff days.


Yeah, Riut was/is an interesting character. He’s probably the first ever “micro nerd” when micro was in a more juvenile phase. I never won a single game vs him too, even though I snatched some games from the tops. All losses which were about 10.

I remember some history on him. I think when it was either sometime in 2007 or early 2008, Riut was using his Mewtwo nick and hit 2k for the first time. The forums went a bit wild, because someone said he was only 13 or 14 then, so it was considered prodigious. It was like, “Dude, we’re living in the era of an aoc prodigy!” I think the only two names who did something similar were of course, Chris and Daut. Speaking of that, I like how in an old Daut interview, Daut said when he was 14, he went from 2k to 2200 in just a few months was because ‘he used his brain.’ Literally gave a 4head answer.

I do remember the MoH tourney timezone a bit when Riut almost won too. I have a friend that was a hardcore Daut fanboy that I believe called me by phone to tell me of how Riut nearly got 1st place (didn’t know he started as 2k and got that far). Because back then, it was only Daut or Chris winning tourneys. Then there was also that Viper clan tourney aside from BCC (maybe you remember how every top player was in that Viper clan), and Riut won ahead of Daut. He was then that new hot player. And he did “break 2400” quickly back then, but it is more to say he overcame legends like Daut and Chris. It is far more impressive that way imo.


I didn’t know Iori was that type of player actually. I do know goodboy was considered one by Dreams who was vocal about goodboy’s play. I liked how there were many goodboy fanboys back then and how he had the “unstoppable rush” losing like no games until 2400. Then Dreams came along on forums being annoyed at fanboys and said like “If you survive the forward vill war, goodboy is dead because he’s behind 4-5 vills due to his style” and tilted them. Then he actually proved it right to some degree by playing goodboy. I actually miss Dreams that way.


Edit: Actually decided to look up some birthdates/liquipedia (hope it’s somewhat accurate) after writing that Riut was around 13-14 when he first hit 2k. Was curious if he was the youngest prodigy. It’s the only thing I don’t ever recall being discussed much at all in any time period.

If it was around summer 2007, he’d be 14 so it sounds accurate. It is around when Gamepark ended that Riut first came around. As for Daut being 14 in that interview I was recalling, seems inaccurate since it’d be 1999 (it was an aoc interview). For Chris, seems he would fit into being a prodigy since he was around in 2001/2002 with rizen/legion (14/15). I don’t know about other names like Halen, kkab, Koven etc. I figure if there was a story like that it would’ve been thrown around, so didn’t look them up. As for Liereyy that I heard about when I was out of the scene, he could be the youngest or close to Riut (?). I remember him being CZ_Liereyy and 21+ when I peeked on Viper’s stream back in 2015 or early 2016. He’d be 13/14. It’s probably between him, Chris, and Riut. Dunno, was something a little interesting to me.

 

[VNS_Spring__]

Ah I see. Yeah, Koven definitely gave me the impression that he had that mindset. It’s definitely very hard, but players who had that were always the ones that broke into the top level. Seen it more than a few times. I actually remembered more names too aside from those two. There’s also Viper (his clashes vs Daut when he first hit 2400 then dropped 100 points and remained 2300 for months), ACCM (2200-2300 vs Slam for awhile and Slam won 9/10 games), Bact I think (can’t recall his complete story, but remember him when he was 2k/2200), Slam (also 2200 for a while but was never afraid to fight vs Viper/Daut), and I’m sure there’s even more names I could add to that list if I went deeper into thought. Don’t know everyone’s journey though. Jordan could be there somewhere too, remember him from Ruff days.


Yeah, Riut was/is an interesting character. He’s probably the first ever “micro nerd” when micro was in a more juvenile phase. I never won a single game vs him too, even though I snatched some games from the tops. All losses which were about 10.

I remember some history on him. I think when it was either sometime in 2007 or early 2008, Riut was using his Mewtwo nick and hit 2k for the first time. The forums went a bit wild, because someone said he was only 13 or 14 then, so it was considered prodigious. It was like, “Dude, we’re living in the era of an aoc prodigy!” I think the only two names who did something similar were of course, Chris and Daut. Speaking of that, I like how in an old Daut interview, Daut said when he was 14, he went from 2k to 2200 in just a few months was because ‘he used his brain.’ Literally gave a 4head answer.

I do remember the MoH tourney timezone a bit when Riut almost won too. I have a friend that was a hardcore Daut fanboy that I believe called me by phone to tell me of how Riut nearly got 1st place (didn’t know he started as 2k and got that far). Because back then, it was only Daut or Chris winning tourneys. Then there was also that Viper clan tourney aside from BCC (maybe you remember how every top player was in that Viper clan), and Riut won ahead of Daut. He was then that new hot player. And he did “break 2400” quickly back then, but it is more to say he overcame legends like Daut and Chris. It is far more impressive that way imo.


I didn’t know Iori was that type of player actually. I do know goodboy was considered one by Dreams who was vocal about goodboy’s play. I liked how there were many goodboy fanboys back then and how he had the “unstoppable rush” losing like no games until 2400. Then Dreams came along on forums being annoyed at fanboys and said like “If you survive the forward vill war, goodboy is dead because he’s behind 4-5 vills due to his style” and tilted them. Then he actually proved it right to some degree by playing goodboy. I actually miss Dreams that way.


Edit: Actually decided to look up some birthdates/liquipedia (hope it’s somewhat accurate) after writing that Riut was around 13-14 when he first hit 2k. Was curious if he was the youngest prodigy. It’s the only thing I don’t ever recall being discussed much at all in any time period.

If it was around summer 2007, he’d be 14 so it sounds accurate. It is around when Gamepark ended that Riut first came around. As for Daut being 14 in that interview I was recalling, seems inaccurate since it’d be 1999 (it was an aoc interview). For Chris, seems he would fit into being a prodigy since he was around in 2001/2002 with rizen/legion (14/15). I don’t know about other names like Halen, kkab, Koven etc. I figure if there was a story like that it would’ve been thrown around, so didn’t look them up. As for Liereyy that I heard about when I was out of the scene, he could be the youngest or close to Riut (?). I remember him being CZ_Liereyy and 21+ when I peeked on Viper’s stream back in 2015 or early 2016. He’d be 13/14. It’s probably between him, Chris, and Riut. Dunno, was something a little interesting to me.

You know everything like google AI)

 

[Rayne]

You know everything like google AI)

Funito is more like google for aoe if you ask me. We both remember a lot, but he’s been around longer so he knows more. Also he seems to be more accurate with details than I am.

 

[VNS_Spring__]

Funito is more like google for aoe if you ask me. We both remember a lot, but he’s been around longer so he knows more. Also he seems to be more accurate with details than I am.

Yes he is also the same Wiki aoe

 

[HongeyKong]

Riut is live POG

 

[IamJeo]

Riut is live POG

This has been my favorite thread on aoezone and lately the reason to log on here at all, see if there's new posts here, this sealed the deal.